Who in the Lomac Community uses radar Automization?

[Grimes]

In ARMA you can't play with ACE mod (their realism mod) features in non ACE mod servers nor can you play in ACE mod servers without the ACE mod installed. Why must LockOn be different? Why should the players with more realistic radars be allowed in the same server as those with less realistic radars? If you reply to this post, answer me that.

 

GG, you still failed to acknowledge that question and its at the heart of the issue. It seems to be a perfect analogy since both games are sims and both mods are intent at adding realism.

[Total]

Grimes, I'll answer ya :)

 

This reminds me of the skypoint debate in Tribes 2. Anyone who played that game competatively should remember that fight.

 

The game came stock with the ability to make waypoints. Someone developed a script where you could add elevation to them too. At which point, you could make a waypoint template for each map. What was the use? Simple, those in heavy aromor class could stand hundreds of meters away and bombard your base with the most powerful weapon in the game with pinpoint accuracy. Killing poeple before they could even get out of the base.

 

New players to the game had no clue as to what was going on. They figured cheats were being used. generally, they unistalled since most gamers prefer not to play with cheaters. Those who played "fairly" did not use them, but were still greatly frustrated by the effect it was having on the game. Once skypoints started being used, the game stopped growing in numbers. It was a contributor to the decrease in player base.

 

The majority of people who are going to play Lock On: FC2 for the first time will have no clue about any type of addons. If they have gained a fundamental understanding of the avionics and targeting systems via training and campaigns, then they're going to immediately think "cheating" when it's obvious people are able to track them regardless of what that person is suppoed to be able to see in the vanilla game.

 

My suggestion - develop the addons. Community addons can do alot for a game.

 

Addons that give an advantage over the vanilla install though are a different matter. Server running that mod should state the mod's name in the server title. (ie 651st LOFC2 Server - LEAVU MOD). New players can look up that mod and then decide if they want to play with it or not.

 

Another option is for ED to have a way for the player to see what mods are beuing run on a server (something I desperately wish ArmA2 had).

 

Such mods are going to divide the community though and there's not much anyone can do about that. The only thing that could be done to prevent a split is for ED to incorporate such mods into the game so everyone has that capability.

 

In short, LEAVU is a helluva mod and looks interesting as hell. It IS going to cause an impabalance with those who don't use it or have no clue it exists.

 

Those who use the mod, in the spirit of keeping the game balanced, should make it a point to let the community know what servers run it so those using it can go there. Also players could append an "LU" to their ingame name to let others know they are using it. This will keep the fighting reduced, but will never get rid of it totally.

 

I personally will nto use LEAVU or play on servers that allow it until the security gaps are closed. Just too many things to exploit there. Sometimes the "ultimate mod" in the wrong hands can be altered to become the "ultimate cheat" Seen it happen in a few games. Security should be more paramount than seeing how far one can push it ;)

Edited April 2, 2010 by Total

[104th_Crunch]

after an hour or so of sifting thru that and as exciting as it was,

i voted i still don't know.

 

what is radar automization ?

 

It is a part of LEAVU that you can install separately on a client PC. It gives the ability for the F-15 to auto-slew the radar beam to keep a contact that you first manually bug (lock) in the center of the beam. It also gives an estimated range to ECM contacts by flickering the range marker when you lock a ECM contact.

 

@Total,

If you read Grimes' post above, you will note that these mods are not installed on the server for 2.0. They are installed by a client (player). So a server has the option of doing a file integrity check to make sure that the clients files match the server. If this is done, a server can mostly ensure custom mods similar to LEAVU etc. cannot run. The other option is to set the server to not do some of these file integrity checks and allow clients to install mods.

 

Game balance changing mods of course are a great concern.

[G3]

thanks Crunch,

haven't set up leavu yet, only seen what to me looks fantastic

 

ok, lets get on with the show

[YorZor]

Tell me one thing then if you call this more unrealistic or whatever blablabla.

 

If you want more realistic shit eh. Does the F-15 in real-life have datalink (capability)?

Think we all know the anwser to that one.

 

Then what is the freaking problem? If ED. didn't want people to change the game in this manner they would see to it that it ain't possible. But since they did (and know about all to well) we can assume they ment for modding like this? You're saying this changes the product that ED released. Maybe so, but maybe ED wanted to implement this but didn't have the time so they let the "hole" open for this to fill?!

I'm not saying LEAVU is good or bad because it's too personal to judge about it from person to person.

Only thing I know is that I like it allot and actually levels the playing field. You get some S.A. as to what you have in the russian jets.

Did they get datalink and the F-15 not because it was more realistic? Or was it that they were too lazy to add it?

 

Now I wish you more happy angry posting.

 

Yorz

[RvEYoda]

We have proven that ECM ranging is completely off how it works in LUA script and how it works in reality and fact that people still want to call it more realistic is nothing but personal opinion (not objective or factual). If people want to have extra things they can do so since the game is very open to modding and changing many things but please no need to convince me or many others that what they are doing is alright. You are entitled to your own game and have it the way you want... you can use LEAVU and have datalink on the F-15C in FC2 but do not call it fair play because it isn't. If FC2 had such feature I don't care because we would then have a fair play as everyone would have it.

 

You haven't really proven anything Kuky. I've asked you and others several times in this thread and

elsewhere(yep you can go back and check the posts now if you don't believe me) how things could been made better.

 

I don't really see the problem, if real eccm ranging is giving you 20 km error at the start

and then +- 5 km after 50 seconds, and eri radar gives you 15-30 km error

variations all the time(and FAR more at long ranges), then I cannot really see what is the issue with it.

 

Let's take the example of a target at 80 nm. What does my radar do? Well it basically has 60 nm error ,

maybe more, virtually impossible to range the target. perhaps at 40-50 nm out you start to see reasonable

results. From what I remember from the documents those errors start at about 20 km and then decrease

over time, while my radar will always give you quite a bit more than 20 km error, non-decreasing.

 

Then there is the third point. What makes you think that the burnthrough is a completely discrete change?

There is probably a lot more information out there than just pure bearing, so that will probably also make

the ranging better the closer you get. Couple this with passive ranging and you get a very good estimate,

likely better the closer to target you get.

 

 

I want to give up on this thread. Time and time again I have tried to point out the precise reasoning for why I think such programs are detrimental to the multiplayer experience and time and time again you or other supporters fire back completely missing the point or finding some random tangent to discuss in your reply.

 

Not at all, but I think it is ridiculous that this is being aimed at something that has been out

there for so long now by so many different developers, lovp, touch buddy etc, then some

more for black shark. You might not have been doing it personally Grimes, I cannot say I've

seen any such posts or vent-craziness by you, but those responsible know who they are.

 

Your comment does not at all reflect the kind of feedback we've been getting.

It would be so much simpler with a straight forward constructive critical posts than what has

been said here and in other forums. I would if I could copy in what has been said from

elsewhere, but that would be breaking the rules of this forum quite a few times.

Edited April 2, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[Kuky]

You haven't really proven anything Kuky, just whined non-stop really. I've asked you and.

 

yeah sure... you are correct and I am wrong.. there, you've just proved again how your ignorance and "I am always right" thinking gets the better of you.

 

The LRM gives instantaneous range estimation... real life takes 1/2min to 1min (sometimes even more and sometimes can't be done at all in certain aspects) and there you keep trying to teach me logic.. Yoda you failed big time and have lost any integrity with me... say it out lout so eveyone can hear you want your toys no matter what... and you can have them but you are WRONG and that's it, you don't even have the guts to admit you're wrong.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Kuky

[RvEYoda]

yeah sure... you are correct and I am wrong.. there, you've just proved again how your ignorance and "I am always right" thinking gets the better of you.

 

The LRM gives instantaneous range estimation... real life takes 1/2min to 1min (sometimes even more and sometimes can't be done at all in certain aspects) and there you keep trying to teach me logic.. Yoda you failed big time and have lost any integrity with me... say it out lout so eveyone can hear you want your toys no matter what... and you can have them but you are WRONG and that's it, you don't even have the guts to admit you're wrong.

 

Don't know what game you have been playing but it certainly doesnt give me instantaneous range.

[Kuky]

yeah sure... I have nothing more to say to you, you can teach someone else how correct you are and how realistic your mods and programs are.. not me

[YorZor]

Heh kuky you sound like a 5yr old. "I can have no candy so no talking to you". Go be the ultimate fighter pilot hero, tough guy.

 

 

Btw yoda on a constructive notice. I noticed that when you break lock from a jammer the scale goes to 160nm and that the elevation will sometimes go all the way up... Big in LEAVU or fc2?

[RvEYoda]

yeah sure... I have nothing more to say to you, you can teach someone else how correct you are and how realistic your mods and programs are.. not me

 

It is not my intention in teaching you how realistic something is.

For example constructive comments you could have made were:

 

- Increase the update/cursor jump time step so it takes more time to get a range estimate

- Let range estimates deteriorate depending on aspect

- Let range estimates improve depending on time spent estimating.

[RvEYoda]

Btw yoda on a constructive notice. I noticed that when you break lock from a jammer the scale goes to 160nm and that the elevation will sometimes go all the way up... Big in LEAVU or fc2?

 

When you unlock the jammer the cursor and elevation will be positioned at the last target estimation point,

which can be waaaay off. Yes this can be made better, I'll look into it, though im not quite sure what to do about it.

I want the radar to be positioned to the last estimation point in a way. Sort of shows how inprecise the ranging really is :)

 

If your target is 50-70 nm out, then this point could be anywhere from 20-30 nm out to 160 if you are really unlucky, hehe

Edited April 2, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[YorZor]

Well it was a jammer about 30nm out and it jumped like 5 times to 160nm because I unlocked to scan the area.

[RvEYoda]

Well it was a jammer about 30nm out and it jumped like 5 times to 160nm because I unlocked to scan the area.

 

strange, i never had that, ill go in and stress test it now

 

Update: I put targets out at all possible ranges and never had anything strange about it .. It always stayed at the last estimation point

Yorz can you email me the track file of it? (In fc2 mp tracks are automatically recorded in the /Temp/ folder)

Edited April 2, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[YorZor]

Yes will do once I find it. First have to identify it.

[Grimes]

In ARMA you can't play with ACE mod (their realism mod) features in non ACE mod servers nor can you play in ACE mod servers without the ACE mod installed. Why must LockOn be different? Why should the players with more realistic radars be allowed in the same server as those with less realistic radars? If you reply to this post, answer me that.

 

That, discuss it. Don't dodge it. Discuss it. Discuss the pros and discuss the cons for. I just want an honest answer. Because that is the issue, through and through. It doesn't matter what you make, its how you implement it.

[RvEYoda]

That, discuss it. Don't dodge it. Discuss it. Discuss the pros and discuss the cons for. I just want an honest answer. Because that is the issue, through and through. It doesn't matter what you make, its how you implement it.

 

Yes, I already commented on that I think. My idea is to have a server browser that will

help you set up the mods required to be allowed to play in a server. For example if your

server bans leavu/etc, but allows some other mods, when people connect to it they will

automatically download the mods they need after saying "yes, i want to install ...."

 

Someone with extensive lua/luagui/dcs gui knowledge is required for this.

 

The only real solution, as said before, is for someone with good programming/luagui knowledge

to integrate an automatic mod-downloader for servers inside fc2.

 

Locking down all servers "barebone" is not going to evolve the game very much.

 

Such requests have been asked of the developers but it is out of scope for their current projects afaik,

so if it is to be done, we need to do it ourselves.

Edited April 2, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[Grimes]

But again you didn't really answer the question. Gameplay. Think of the gameplay implications of it.

 

Player A has realism mods

Player B has the stock game.

Player A can join any server with realism mods.

Player B can join any server with stock game.

 

Are both players on equal ground?

 

Forget about "assuming people use them" or fine print notices posted in the server. Talk about gameplay. What effect does your mod have on all aspects of gameplay.

[RvEYoda]

But again you didn't really answer the question. Gameplay. Think of the gameplay implications of it.

 

Player A has realism mods

Player B has the stock game.

Player A can join any server with realism mods.

Player B can join any server with stock game.

 

Are both players on equal ground?

 

Forget about "assuming people use them" or fine print notices posted in the server. Talk about gameplay. What effect does your mod have on all aspects of gameplay.

 

Player A has 50" monitor

Player B has 15" monitor

 

Are both players on equal ground? That is the entire purpose of making such a server browser

Of course not. It is about where you draw the lines. For me that monitor has bigger gameplay impact than my mod,

others may disagree.

 

Player C has touch buddy with RWR

Player D has force controlled joystick

Player D has built a full workig cockpit.

Player E has Crazy macine with 6 monitor setup and $10000 performance

Player F has US rwr screen while flying Su-27 on LOVP

Player G has automatic missile dodge script :)

Player H has radar elevation through ERI radar <-- MUST BAN!!!

 

What I'm really looking for is perspective

Edited April 2, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[Grimes]

Man you just gotta list specifics for hypothetical with you guys. I'm surprised you didn't add more... Player I has a history of heart disease. Player J has a cold....... Besides you can't download a bigger monitor for free.

 

So your solution requires hours more of work by someone else to create something that doesn't exist. As much as I would love to see such an application its not exactly happening soon. Its not exactly the answer either.

[Distiler]

I guess, in the end, we're gonna need a mod of "confidence" :)

Rotten pilots will be marginalized naturally by the community.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Distiler

[RvEYoda]

Then Grimes, sry but I can't understand your question.

 

Might as well also throw in graphics mods in there. People saying so harmlessly that

"oh it is just a graphics mod", well that mod that someone just made to terrain might

just change it enough to make planes more visible against the ground, or the new prettier

missile contrails might be visible further, or might make one plane behave as Kuz at far

distance(unintentionally).

 

For example I already know that some Su27 3d models completely mess up what low

LOD models are loaded at long range. I experienced that myself.

 

Why think that _I_ am the reason that this exists, when there are so many other mods

doing similar things, I certainly wasn't the first - Maybe one of the first to reveal its possible

weaknesses to the public. I don't get it. Do they get some get-out-of-3sqn-jail-free card?

And then you believe it is MY problem to solve something that has been around who knows

how long and you believe to be a problem? Sry but I don't buy this. I even made a

"block-all-scripts" mod for FC 1.12 to help you guys.

 

You are free to run whatever combination of mods that you want or not, and block them totally

on your server, I have nothing tod with that, but don't come and claim I broke your game in some

way or I was the first to do something you did not feel is right. Your oppinions aren't the same as mine

Edited April 2, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda

[Kuky]

Saying someone else has done things before does not make it right and is inexcusable "excuse" also for "get-out-of-3sqn-jail-free card" what does that mean? Are you picking on 3Sqn members because you are naming it on these forums where you know such things are not welcome (as it becomes personal)

 

You're right only one thing... you can run your game any way you like and can have any programs you want... we cannot stop you, but we will stop it on our server and vouch for other squads not to allow it also, how this will work we'll see in future...

[YorZor]

Man you just gotta list specifics for hypothetical with you guys. I'm surprised you didn't add more... Player I has a history of heart disease. Player J has a cold....... Besides you can't download a bigger monitor for free.

 

So your solution requires hours more of work by someone else to create something that doesn't exist. As much as I would love to see such an application its not exactly happening soon. Its not exactly the answer either.

 

You're saying, the more money you put into this you can get nicer features? You just lost all credibility....

[RvEYoda]

Saying someone else has done things before does not make it right and is inexcusable "excuse" also for "get-out-of-3sqn-jail-free card" what does that mean? Are you picking on 3Sqn members because you are naming it on these forums where you know such things are not welcome (as it becomes personal)

 

I think ERI, Leavu, LOVP and touch buddy are very good tools. (Aren't 3sqn members some

of the main contributors to touch buddy profiles?) Feel free to block anyone you like from your servers.

If you think I'm taking this personally, then you need only look in your own back yard and

the previous posts here for reasons. I find many of them personal and frankly offensive.

 

I see no more reasons to make further posts in this thread, it can only get more off topic already.

I suggest it is closed

 

You're right only one thing... you can run your game any way you like and can have any programs you want... we cannot stop you, but we will stop it on our server and vouch for other squads not to allow it also, how this will work we'll see in future...

 

I guess I'm right on the only point i never even mentioned, at least, I don't understand what you mean

Edited April 2, 2010 by =RvE=Yoda