Apache module: Why the "A" version?

[Agiel7]

Read up on the wikipedia article on DCS, and I wanted to ask why the developers settled on the "A" version of the Apache, sans improved fire control radar of the Longbow? Was it decided that integrating it would be too complex for even the most hard-core sim fans? Or was the army a bit nervous about guys trying to model it, even if it was for a game?

[sobek]

Welcome to the forums!

 

Uhm that old song again, but since your new may i hint at the search thingy?

[Boberro]

Hello Angiel7, sorry but this is so old song.... please search forum before asking.

[159th_Viper]

Longbow = Classified.

 

ED and the Dev Team can and probably will, if asked Very Nicely!

 

The Downside is that they will all be lined Up the Very next Day and Shot at Dawn with Rusty Muskets for Tinkering with Classified Info.......With that in Mind, I'll pass on the Longbow, Cheers.

 

Welcome to the Forums - Got to grips with the Kamov yet?

[Agiel7]

Well to put it lightly, it's a harrowing experience. Luckily, owing to my attachment to these types of games, I have an extraordinary amount of patience learning them. My uncle gave me Jane's Longbow 2 on my ninth birthday, and 688(i) Hunter Killer when I turned eleven.

[isoul]

Agiel7 welcome onboard!

 

This is a much discussed topic that's why most of the other suggested to search in forum. I had myself the same question in the beginning but I got a some very good arguments why ED was talking about A version and not D.

 

Is an AH-64 module still in ED plans near future plans???

Edited January 23, 2010 by isoul

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Agiel, because the AH-64D, as well as the Augusta-Westland Apache, has lots of modern systems that weren't declassified yet. But just for your information, there's nothing saying the AH-64 will be the next DCS module. It is in ED's short-list, together with a bunch of other aircraft (most of them are the same we see in Lock On). I don't know why people assume the next module WILL be an AH-64. There's the possibility, but nothing was said from the devs. It would be good if someone fixed that Wikipedia page.

 

Isoul, we can say it is. But in their near future plans there are also MiG-29, Su-27, F-15, F-16, Su-25 and etc.

 

If it makes over 500km/h, I'm already happy. If it can do A2A decently, then I'll be very very happy :D

[isoul]

And something else that should be mentioned is that AH-64D Longbow's main role is to act as an AFAC(Airborne Forward Air Controller) for the rest of AH-64(be it D variants without the Longbow radar equipped or simply AH-64A+).

 

The same idea goes for Ka-50 flights were a Ka-52 act as AFAC while the rest are Ka-50 that engages targets. Everybody are doing fine without Ka-52 why this can't be for Apaches too?

[liotczik]

AH-64A not good enough?? :shocking: Being Jane's Longbow 2 veteran myself, I mostly flew A variant anyway and would love to try it again, even with the old school gauges cockpit.

[Martillo1]

Give me an old De La Cierva's autogyro and a couple of hand grenades and I will destroy those pesky targets :D

[Speed]

Well, to be technical, remember that NOT ALL AH-64Ds have a Longbow radar! The AH-64D refers to an upgraded AH-64A, and only SOME have the radar equipped. So if you see an Apache without a radar, that does not mean it's an AH-64A, in fact, it's probably a D, because I don't think that the US Army flys the A anymore.

 

Edit: Maybe the US army DOES fly the AH-64A in smaller numbers, but that's wikipedia so who knows how trustworthy that is.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Speed

[GGTharos]

Nope, the AH-64A is, AFAIK, gone :) No longer used by the US.

[Frederf]

We all know the AH-64D Longbow is full of classified systems but how about the AH-64D Apache? Is a modern non-Longbow AH-64D filled with classified electronics?

 

Also who says I don't pine for a Ka-52 in order to make integrated missions in DCS:BS?

[GGTharos]

Yes, it is.

 

If someone can find a publicly available -10 for the 64D, the chances of that being made into a module will increase dramatically ... from near zero to possible.

Edited January 25, 2010 by GGTharos

[sobek]

Yes, it is.

 

If someone can find a publicly available -10 for the 64D, the chances of that being made into a module will increase dramatically ... from near zero to possible.

 

How high are the chances of THAT happening? :noexpression:

[isoul]

We all know the AH-64D Longbow is full of classified systems but how about the AH-64D Apache? Is a modern non-Longbow AH-64D filled with classified electronics?

 

Also who says I don't pine for a Ka-52 in order to make integrated missions in DCS:BS?

 

I think that AH-64D Apache Longbow variant is more of an Apache that adopted fully the Digital Battlefield Doctrine so the changes from A variant is more about data interchange between various elements and units and improvement to systems rather than flight characteristics or different weapons or equipment(besides the Longbow radar). I think that highly classified remains both the Longbow capabilities and the improved communication/navigation/survivability systems...

 

I didn't say that no one wants Ka-52, or that Ka-52 wouldn't be nice to be modeled BUT :

 

1) We all play the game with Ka-50 and no Ka-52 so far without major problems.

2) Ka-50's participated in Chechnya War without the much needed aid of Ka-52.

3) The use of Ka-52 in DCS would be 99% restricted in multiplayer environment. In single player it would be hard for AI to use it properly and being an AFAC for AI isn't that fum IMO.

 

We can do it without Ka-52 and personaly I believe the work of an AFAC is a quite complex one that will be :

 

1) Hard to be modeled(since many systems remains classified)

2) Hard to be used 100% since it requires many skills and experience to fully get the advantage.

 

If ED says that it will be modeled then I am more than happy, if ED says it won't I won't be bothered either! I think most of the community thinks that way!

Edited January 25, 2010 by isoul

[ARM505]

It's not just simulating the helicopter - it's simulating the environment it's meant to be operated in. We are already bordering on a 'switch flicking' simulator, as opposed to an actual fighting vehicle in a human-filled, dynamic world. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - if you want a -D model Apache, go and read Ed Macy's 'Apache', then ask yourself: Could the DCS world support what the helo's did in that book? Not just systems-wise, but how they interacted with each other (CPG to Pilot, Helo to other helo's, helo to ground, helo to other airbourne forces)? Not yet.....when you increase complexity and comms abilities of the platform simulated (and the -D is a mobile network point), you increase what must be simulated enormously.

[amalahama]

It looks like "somebody" has already got the -10 :P

 

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2892427/1/Apache_avionics_modernization_.html

 

 

Regards!!

[GGTharos]

Here's the rub with the -10 for the 64D ... can ED get their hands on it?

 

Yes.

 

Can ED legally get their hands on it?

 

No.

 

So, they take an arms export controlled document, give you a 64D and ... then what?

 

ED loses at least all their military US contracts. DCS would be cut down to practically nothing for one radar-equipped lawnmower, and believe you me, you don't want to trade the stuff that's in the pipeline for a lawnmower. Even one with a radar.

Edited January 28, 2010 by GGTharos

[liotczik]

Do I understand right then, that there is absolutely no chance for us to get DCS: AH-64A, because it's not flown anymore? Even for playability and it's popularity sake?

[GGTharos]

I wouldn't say there's no chance. There's no telling what might happen (and in particular, why).

 

One possibility outside of ED doing it themselves will be 3rd party add-ons, though it might be a while before the necessary SDKs become available.

 

Do I understand right then, that there is absolutely no chance for us to get DCS: AH-64A, because it's not flown anymore? Even for playability and it's popularity sake?

[Lucas_From_Hell]

Well, not that I support the idea, but we have to consider that there are more than just US and Russia in the military world, specially since Cold War ended. The thing is:

 

The AH-64A is operated by Egypt, Greece, Israel, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. It would require a whole rework to expand possible situations, but it's still possible to include these countries in a big conflict.

 

GGTharos, by the way, Wikipedia says (too lazy to look somewhere else) that the US Army operates 240 AH-64A, and another 500 AH-64D. Are you sure all A models were retired since January 2009?

[GGTharos]

I think the National Guard may still operate A's.

 

I guess I must repeat for the nth time that countries operating a given type is not necessarily enough - ED will go for an aircraft that a country will pay to have a trainer for, and then it will transfer what they have done (minus some stuff that you likely won't miss) to us. If there's no one paying for a 64A sim, but there's countries paying for sims of other aircraft, you'll get the other aircraft. Currently this is the A-10C. Next module? Who knows.

Edited January 28, 2010 by GGTharos

[VMFA117_Poko]

How about AH-64D with simplified avionics as an addon aircraft in LockOn FC 2.0? :tomato:

[GGTharos]

 

How about AH-64D with simplified avionics as an addon aircraft in LockOn FC 2.0? :tomato: