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Advice on a forcefeedback stick to be used with BS.


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Hi all!

 

 

I have the Saitek X52 HOTAS and it works fine for FC 2.0, Falcon 4.0 AF, IL-2 1946 etc, but I miss my old Sidewinder Pro2 FF stick. (Had to, not working good anymore with centering problems). I bought the BS manual and have started slowly to get into the shark, although I feel it would be more natural and better to fly the bird with a FF stick. I know some of you use Saiteks and use the trim and recenter thing, but in the real bird, the stick actually stays there after you trim. I really want it to be as realistic as possible and need your advice on what stick to get. I have taken a look on this one: http://www.komplett.no/k/ki.aspx?sku=355333. I also watched a few reviews on YouTube and it seems solid. Any other suggestion or do you think I will get used to the recenter thing with the Saitek? I really enjoyed some flying in the bird with be old ff stick before it became to loos in the center area. The Saitek stick is much more precise, so I need a ff stick that is very precise and not to pricey. Anyone?

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G940 works great for me but is pricey. It has its problems as I am sure you know but it is very pleasant to use with BS. FC2 is giving me a bit of a headache but with time I think I'll figure it out.

Smokin' Hole

 

My DCS wish list: Su25, Su30, Mi24, AH1, F/A-18C, Afghanistan ...and frankly, the flight sim world should stop at 1995.

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G940 works great for me but is pricey. It has its problems as I am sure you know but it is very pleasant to use with BS. FC2 is giving me a bit of a headache but with time I think I'll figure it out.

 

Were you really able to ged rid of the slop? Back when i still had it, i read through all the threads and tried the settings but i was never able to make the centering forces work properly.

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I use a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 and have NEVER had a problem trimming the Blackshark. I did not even have to mess with the settings. My only complaint is the hat stick moves the shkval too slowly. Also for those of you out there that have joysticks with too few buttons consider Say2Play voice control software. With that and a joystick you dont even have to touch a keyboard anymore.

I need, I need, I need... What about my wants? QuickSilver original.

"Off with his job" Mr Burns on the Simpsons.

"I've seen steering wheels / arcade sticks / flight sticks for over a hundred dollars; why be surprised at a 150 dollar item that includes the complexities of this controller?! It has BLINKY LIGHTS!!" author unknown.

 

 

These titles are listed in the chronological order I purchased them.

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As far as I know, the old Microsoft Sidewinder ForceFeedback 2 is still the gold standard for DCS:BS. Production stopped on them years ago, but you can still find them via on-line auctions, etc. It is possible to get one in very good shape. (New in the box unfortunately will generally cost an outlandish amount).

 

The Saitek Cyborg Evo Force can be made to work, with the caveat that it doesn't exhibit a strong holding force in the trimmed position. Search the forums and you'll find plenty on that, including recommended settings / mods (ie. disabling the centering spring with twist ties). It's vexing, as the Evo Force can generate plenty of force, it's just that the software is not making that happen for reasons we still do not know.

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To bad I have two Sidewinders here on the shelf...hmm...they work, but after calibration i see the cross wobbles around in the center, not staying steady. I think it may work if I add some deadzone maybe. I did try plugging it in yesterday to see how it was with FC 2.0 but I got the problem it was to sensitive. Like if I moved the stick only a couple of cm to the right, I was already doing triple barrel rolls! This also happens in FC 1.12 but not in IL-2 1946! Strange thing, I tried both of the stick and both had the same problem. I did use the before in v.1.12 and never had a problem with them like this before. After I got X52 I put them on the shelf, but decided to try again yesterday, but when this happened I unplugged them because of the loose center thing. Actually I did not try them with Blakc Shark. Hmmm...I try them again and see how they behave there. Maybe I am lucky! :)

My moviemaking channel at YouTube:

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Eagle Dynamics needs to address the Logitech G940 in there code so that it works correctly. You can tweak all you want but it is always a trade off for something else. My suggestion is that Eagle Dynamics try testing the G940 with both Black Shark and Lockon before they release another patch. Please fix the Force Feedback of the stick in Black Shark so I can hover the Black Shark already.

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Eagle Dynamics needs to address the Logitech G940 in there code so that it works correctly. You can tweak all you want but it is always a trade off for something else. My suggestion is that Eagle Dynamics try testing the G940 with both Black Shark and Lockon before they release another patch. Please fix the Force Feedback of the stick in Black Shark so I can hover the Black Shark already.

 

A couple of observations here:

 

- We've seen E.D. be responsive on all sorts of issues.

- We've seen Logitech become markedly non-responsive on G940 issues shortly after it became available for sale. As in, Logitech Mark disappeared from the forums, etc.

 

Given those behaviors, I think it is much more probable that the needed fix lies with Logitech (ie. their drivers, profiling software, or the hardware's firmware).

 

It would be great if E.D. somehow fixed it, as it would be nice if they could do the same for the Saitek Evo Force. But it probably isn't fair to lay blame upon their doorstep.

 

That's how it looks to me. Others may see it differently.

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I did try plugging it in yesterday to see how it was with FC 2.0 but I got the problem it was to sensitive. Like if I moved the stick only a couple of cm to the right, I was already doing triple barrel rolls!

 

 

Not sure if you already tried to adjust the axis curve ?

By changing the curve you change the sensitivity to make the joystick more agile or less agile just as you wish.

 

You should try that.

best regards,

GSG_9_LIGHTNING

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Not sure if you already tried to adjust the axis curve ?

By changing the curve you change the sensitivity to make the joystick more agile or less agile just as you wish.

 

You should try that.

 

/agreed - you beat me to it.

 

I am watching this thread with ambition and inclination to possibly buy a FF-Stick in the future.

 

 

.

- - - - - - - - TO FLY IS HEAVEN. TO HOVER IS DIVINE - - - - - -



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You can't use curves with FF sticks because the center of the curves doesn't follow the center of the stick as you trim. Or at least that's what it happened in FC (the now old FC). The result is a very strange control behaviour when you trim for high or low speeds. I had to learnt it by myself when I was new to FF.

 

The biggest problem with FF is the free play around the center. This is to avoid oscilations when you move the stick to the center and the motor changes from doing force in one direction to the other. The people who has owned the ancient MS FFB racing wheel may know what I'm talking about.

 

To avoid the constrol issue when the stick is loose in the center the best would be to use some dead zone and avoid unwanted control. But, like with curves, the deadzone is not carried along with the position of the center as you trim. It's left behind making it useless.

 

The truth is that in any non fly-by-wire aircraft there is some free play around the center. If the FF stick's free play would be smaller, AND the deadzone (and curves for the matter) would follow the position of the center when it changes due to trimming then the FF's free play could be an emulation of real life's free play.

 

I'm used to my MS FFB2, but sometimes I feel nostalgic and fly with my x52. Now I realize that it is sooooo precise that it's even unrealistic. Yes, I think that flying with the x52 is too easy, control is just perfect. It's more like a fly-by-wire aircraft's flight sitck than a traditional one.

 

An alternative to curves is saturation. You lose some range though.


Edited by average_pilot
as always, trying to make things clearer.... and a typo, now two
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Nice explanation Average Pilot. The only thing I can add is the the flop or deadzone with G940 is about 20 or more travel around the center of the stick. Also, this problem does not exist in IL2. But the stick seems to have a lot a wierd behavior with both Black Shark and FC which were both written by ED.

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So.... for the DCS:BS newbie here.... I'm trying to decide whether I should learn the sim with my tried and true CH Products HOTAS (Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Peddles), or should I hook up my Saitek Cyborg EVO FF stick and learn using it?

 

Wondering if mixing and matching the setups would be more headache than its worth.

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I'm trying to decide whether I should learn the sim with my tried and true CH Products HOTAS (Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Peddles), or should I hook up my Saitek Cyborg EVO FF stick and learn using it?

 

If I can put my 2 cents in here!? I havent tried the new Logitech FFB stick, so I might offend some of the users when saying this...

 

But of all the FFB joysticks I HAVE tested in BS, it's quite clear that none is worth it after trying the MS Sidewinder FFB2...:cry:

 

And yes, I know it sucks.. Specially since they're not arround anymore in shops.? And also you loose the benefit of having a HOTAS setup if your not prepaired to do some modding to fushon your HOTAS with the SW mechanics..

 

But if your up for the modding, I can almost promise you it's gonna be worth while to do so..

 

If you decide to start searching ebay (or even better.. a more local simular buy/sell website..! I have found SW FFB2 sticks cheaper and in MUCH better condition on a national Buy/sell site), be on the lookout for a SW FFB2 joystick with RED buttons and a red dust protector cup over the gimbal.

My understanding is that this is the last production of SW FFB2 joysticks, and they have much higher resolution on the X&Y axis..!

 

Ps. All this being said I have to admitt that I really haven't tried BS without SW FFB2 joystick for more than 10 seconds....:joystick:

"But (504)Brewber said they were'nt friendly.. So I took'em out.!"

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Were you really able to ged rid of the slop? Back when i still had it, i read through all the threads and tried the settings but i was never able to make the centering forces work properly.

 

Slop didn't really bother me since its not an input slop but rather a spring slop. I have a small deadzone that's just big enough for me to autohover and do my thing without disturbing the helicopter, yet small enough to be responsive. Trim works great throughout the entire speed range. There are two big problems: mini-stick is useless as an axis and the R1 and R2 wheels move with the throttle (and I've gone through two throttles...thank you Logitech).

Smokin' Hole

 

My DCS wish list: Su25, Su30, Mi24, AH1, F/A-18C, Afghanistan ...and frankly, the flight sim world should stop at 1995.

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I've talked to Logitech today and they are actively working on solutions.

 

Well, that's what they've been saying for the last three months straight and there's no end in sight. No offense to you, i'm sure you are doing your best. Still, i can't help but wonder what they were thinking when they released that product. It's like a butcher selling a live cow to his customers, calling it minced meat.:doh:

Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two.

Come let's eat grandpa!

Use punctuation, save lives!

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Honestly I don't see how people trim WITHOUT force feedback. I think we should all petition Microsoft to re release an updated version of the MS SW FF2 flight stick.

I need, I need, I need... What about my wants? QuickSilver original.

"Off with his job" Mr Burns on the Simpsons.

"I've seen steering wheels / arcade sticks / flight sticks for over a hundred dollars; why be surprised at a 150 dollar item that includes the complexities of this controller?! It has BLINKY LIGHTS!!" author unknown.

 

 

These titles are listed in the chronological order I purchased them.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Honestly I don't see how people trim WITHOUT force feedback. I think we should all petition Microsoft to re release an updated version of the MS SW FF2 flight stick.
Yes!!!!

Or even better, a new MS SW FF3 with the most up to date force feedback technology. I'd pay anything.

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Yes!!!!

Or even better, a new MS SW FF3 with the most up to date force feedback technology. I'd pay anything.

 

I must try and source one of those MS FF sticks.

 

I doubt MS will be doing anything like that for a long time at least, since Steve Balmer took over there have been lots of cut backs in Microsoft Gaming division, Aces axed along with FS11 and Train Sim 2.

 

You can say what you like about Bill Gates, but he was a staunch supporter of Flight Sim.

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Am I correct in discerning from messages on the forum that the trim issue was never solved with the Saitek Cyborg Evo?

 

That largely depends on a combination of what your expectations are, and what you are willing to do.

 

If you want/need something that holds really solid and without making modifications to the stick beyond a few software settings... the issues are definitely not solved.

 

If you can live with a light holding force, and compressing the centering spring (ie. with twist ties or cable ties)... then the issues can be mitigated (or at least mostly so).

 

It's not ideal, that's for sure.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

There's no place like 127.0.0.1

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That largely depends on a combination of what your expectations are, and what you are willing to do.

 

If you want/need something that holds really solid and without making modifications to the stick beyond a few software settings... the issues are definitely not solved.

 

If you can live with a light holding force, and compressing the centering spring (ie. with twist ties or cable ties)... then the issues can be mitigated (or at least mostly so).

 

It's not ideal, that's for sure.

 

BTW - When people have posted about the "center spring", is that the external one at the base of the handle.... or is it an internal one that requires disassembly?

i7-7700k

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Win 10 Pro

Samsung Odyssey WMR

Warthog HOTAS

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It's external. It pushes down from the base of the grip upon the beveled plastic plastic centering ring. For a quick test, just get 2 or 3 garbage bag twist ties threaded in and compress the spring with them. The weak force generated in the stick (when being used in DCS:BS) then does not have to work against that spring to hold the trimmed position.

 

As mentioned before, it's puzzling, as the stick can physically generate more than enough force to overcome that spring and solidly hold the stick in any off-center position.... it just won't do it with DCS:BS and the (current) Saitek drivers.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

There's no place like 127.0.0.1

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