Is there any official word about solving the Shkval FPS issue?

[isoul]

As the title says... is there any info? The only word I found about it is that its being investigated. Hey, DCS:BS has no problem with it... DCS:BS has no serious impact in FPS, it doesn't even show every single tree kilometers away as FC2.0 does.

 

Is there any patch coming out soon or just a quick fix? Is this issue solved?

 

I am anxious cause strike aircraft are my favorite and I wouldn't bother if FC2.0 included fighters only. I love the Su-25T and its FM but now its unplayable unless you tweak and sacrifice some detail... Currently I restrict myself in playing the Mig-29 althought I would love to fly the Su-25T instead.

 

Sorry for being irritating and pressing on the matter...

Edited April 26, 2010 by isoul

[Boberro]

Unfortunetely ED is going to remove non-zoom level in Shkval.... and leave only 8x and 23x. This is their "solution" ;)

 

Personally anyone who cares about own FPS would create a macro which automatically turn their TV into 8x zoom level. Then there wouldn't be forcing to use only 8x and 23x.

[EtherealN]

Isoul, the reason why there is a larger impact in FC2 than in DCS:BS is that FC2 has a much longer sight range - needed when you have mach 2.4 fighters flying around at angels 50. :P

 

You could probably get it to DCS smoothness simply through tweaking the sight range values in cfg to DCS:BS level - but you'll be one crippled aviator when you are trying to fly around at twice the speed of the shark (or more) while trying to spot targets.

[isoul]

Wait a second guys!

 

Unfortunetely ED is going to remove non-zoom level in Shkval.... and leave only 8x and 23x. This is their "solution" ;)

 

Personally anyone who cares about own FPS would create a macro which automatically turn their TV into 8x zoom level. Then there wouldn't be forcing to use only 8x and 23x.

 

Removing 0x zoom level isn't a solution... You can't search for a target using 8x, only if you already have spoted it visualy and turned the seeker to its exact location.

 

Isoul, the reason why there is a larger impact in FC2 than in DCS:BS is that FC2 has a much longer sight range - needed when you have mach 2.4 fighters flying around at angels 50. :P

 

You could probably get it to DCS smoothness simply through tweaking the sight range values in cfg to DCS:BS level - but you'll be one crippled aviator when you are trying to fly around at twice the speed of the shark (or more) while trying to spot targets.

 

Ethereal, you mean that the reason is that in FC2.0 while at no-zoom (0x zoom) you still can see single trees rendered at great distances.

 

1) This ISN'T needed cause no one will try to spot a tank at that distance using 0x zoom. Even if you try, you can distinguish a tank from a tree since everything are tiny(but still visible). As it is now you can see trees on a mountain using Shkval at 0x zoom at too great distances (maybe 30 or 40 km away) while trees aren't visible at half that range when you look through the cockpit glass.

 

2) Its unrealistic to be able to see trees at this distance. Why the Shkval's 0x zoom is so much better that your eyes? Its 0x zoom afterall, right? Am I not getting something right?

 

3) You are a crippled aviator in many cases even with the "much longer sight" cause when you are running the game with 11-15 fps you can't handle the Su-25T, not to mention to point Shkval to the direction you want!

 

Please take a moment and read my simplistic solution to the problem :

 

As we all understood the problem is that in Shkval you can see objects at too great distances even at 0x zoom. In my opinion the distance shouldn't be so great!

 

By tweaking Fogparameter1 and Fogparameter2, in graphics.cfg at the end of the file, and setting both to 2.5 you can increase the fog effect so the trees in great distance will disappear. This has little impact at view distance in cockpit, a big impact in Shkval's view distance at 0x zoom(which is welcome). This makes the game gain 10-15 fps, running at 25-30 fps, were otherwise it would run at 15 fps average.

 

Of course the impact at visual range in cockpit isn't the best think but its less annoying than running the game with 15 fps!

 

What would be the best solution?

 

The best solution that comes to my mind (though I don't know if it can be done) is to be able to set different visual/fog distances for Shkval MFD zoom levels and cockpit/camera views. In MFD objects shouldn't be rendered at too great distances when using 0x zoom. When you set zoom level to 8x or 23x the render distance could be changed since at 8x trees should be visible at some extend, but this has no impact in fps since FoV isn't that great. Same goes for 23x zoom level.

 

Isn't that possible?

 

PS : Sorry for the long post, I am just trying to help...

Edited April 27, 2010 by isoul

[Boberro]

Removing 0x zoom level isn't a solution... You can't search for a target using 8x, only if you already have spoted it visualy and turned the seeker to its exact location.

 

I wrote this in sarcasm mode :P Of course it is not solution, and I am sadly suprised ED is simply going to remove it oO by just cutting unnecessery code...

 

1) This ISN'T needed cause no one will try to spot a tank at that distance using 0x zoom. Even if you try, you can distinguish a tank from a tree since everything are tiny(but still visible). As it is now you can see trees on a mountain using Shkval at 0x zoom at too great distances (maybe 30 or 40 km away) while trees aren't visible at half that range when you look through the cockpit glass.

 

When you are attacking 0x zoom is a MUST. At 2 km distance it is harder to perform searching via tiny search vision powered by 8x zoom (don't say about 23x where it would be impossible). At 0x zoom yo see better from close distances. I know it may be crazy to attack Su-25T from 2 km, but it is quite often.

 

 

By tweaking Fogparameter1 and Fogparameter2, in graphics.cfg at the end of the file, and setting both to 2.5 you can increase the fog effect so the trees in great distance will disappear. This has little impact at view distance in cockpit, a big impact in Shkval's view distance at 0x zoom(which is welcome). This makes the game gain 10-15 fps, running at 25-30 fps, were otherwise it would run at 15 fps average.

 

Do u know how to make that get solid 3D objects (buildings) without ugly transparency? I doubt if in real life buildings appear in transparency to solid... I noticed it is way ED programmed this ? oO

 

After you modify fog parameter, objects are only solid but you see them from futher distance like in FPS mod in LO1.

 

Of course the impact at visual range in cockpit isn't the best think but its less annoying than running the game with 15 fps!

 

25-30 is clearly smooth ;]

 

Hope ED will NOT cut this 0x zoom, using the easiest method how to remove a prolem - just deleting 0x.

Edited April 27, 2010 by Boberro

[EtherealN]

isoul, from what I've gathered it's not only trees and objects - it's actual terrain as well. The Skhval is essentially a second camera, technically speaking, so the graphics engine ends up having to compute the terrain geometry a second time.

 

Obviously, I do think that it should be possible to tweak yourself to a good solution - a middle ground so to speak. But just directly copying the BS ranges is not an option, at least not for me. (Though on my system the issue isn't much of an issue - I get low FPS a little now and then but as soon as I've panned around it settles down and becomes unnoticeable. I guess I'm just lucky though - and of course not everyone has warranty voiding as a hobby like I do :P )

[isoul]

... When you are attacking 0x zoom is a MUST. At 2 km distance it is harder to perform searching via tiny search vision powered by 8x zoom (don't say about 23x where it would be impossible). At 0x zoom yo see better from close distances. I know it may be crazy to attack Su-25T from 2 km, but it is quite often...

 

Of course the 0x zoom is essential in order to spot a target! No arguement on that Bob!!!

 

I said that no one will try to spot a target, using 0x zoom at great distances, like 30+ kilometers away. At these distances, using 0x zoom, its impossible to spot a target! Still, trees are visible 30km away from you even at 0x zoom. So the number of objects being displayed in Shkval counts at least several hundreds. This is why every, bet EVERY system is brought to its knees... even computers with powerful graphics cards and processors!

 

isoul, from what I've gathered it's not only trees and objects - it's actual terrain as well. The Skhval is essentially a second camera, technically speaking, so the graphics engine ends up having to compute the terrain geometry a second time.

 

Agree on that Shkval is a second(independent) camera. So, if its a second camera and is computed a second time, why not do so with different settings? The LOD1 and LOD12 are different for MFD as I can judge from graphics.cfg, why not implement more settings like fog distances and object distances?

 

Obviously, I do think that it should be possible to tweak yourself to a good solution - a middle ground so to speak. But just directly copying the BS ranges is not an option, at least not for me....

 

This is were I object Ethereal! Why not have an ED solution? Its a known problem, everyone can reproduce it easily and it is a matter of game design... While I can tweak some files and improve the game's performance, ED should do it because :

 

1) Its their product.

2) They could do it better than me.

3) I am a customer... it isn't good to ask customers to improve your errors in design without a discount! Is it?

[EtherealN]

My point is: the issue is being adressed. I don't know the exact avenues being pursued. But until then there are tweaks one can do if one experiences this problem.

 

As for different settings - it's easy for us to say since we're not the ones stuck with programming this. I don't know how hardcoded it is, neither do you, therefore it is impossible for us to judge how feasible our suggestions are. For example: what if the graphics engine forces cameras to work on the same settings? (Don't take graphics.cfg as gospel, it only has authority on things that aren't hardcoded or arent picked up from elsewhere.) In that case we might have ED being forced to choose between doing an uncomfortable tweak in Skhval resolutions or plain rewriting major parts of the graphics engine - and while the second may be preferable it might be financially impossible.

 

Again though - I'm not directly involved in the work on that patch so I don't know for sure what is and isn't being done.

[isoul]

My point is: the issue is being adressed. I don't know the exact avenues being pursued. But until then there are tweaks one can do if one experiences this problem.

 

As for different settings - it's easy for us to say since we're not the ones stuck with programming this. I don't know how hardcoded it is, neither do you, therefore it is impossible for us to judge how feasible our suggestions are. For example: what if the graphics engine forces cameras to work on the same settings? (Don't take graphics.cfg as gospel, it only has authority on things that aren't hardcoded or arent picked up from elsewhere.) In that case we might have ED being forced to choose between doing an uncomfortable tweak in Skhval resolutions or plain rewriting major parts of the graphics engine - and while the second may be preferable it might be financially impossible.

 

Again though - I'm not directly involved in the work on that patch so I don't know for sure what is and isn't being done.

 

Ethereal you can't be more right about what you say! I am glad to hear that ED is doing something, anything to take care our requests.

 

About the suggestions... its only ideas since I don't know the capabilities or the limitations of the graphics engine. I am not in any position to direct ED devs! If I was I probably could do it myself..! The best thing I could do is to try different settings and see how the performance would be affected.

 

The only thing I can do is to direct people to the solution that worked for me until something better or something official comes out.

[Boberro]

I've been thinking and sent Devs an idea... I mean if they HAVE TO remove 0x zoom and set 8x zoom at start (when we press O for turning on TV) why not keep 0x zoom available behind 8x - u need simply press minus (-) key to move from 8x to 0x :)

 

Now we have at start 0x --> 8x --> 23x

Later would be at start 8x but we could press minus (-) for 0x or plus (+) for 23x. Both sides would be happy ;]

Edited April 27, 2010 by Boberro

[Renato71]

Silly solutions on a first glance, but quite "Russian" in its essence :D

Personally, if only such non-fix will be done, I would prefer for Shkval to be pointed 20-45° down and 0x zoom.

 

But I just don't understand why does Shkval have to calculate something that is 1000 km away? Why is not limited to display things at 50 km (or similar distance) away, and be done with it?

 

It reminds me of that ridiculous stutter/freeze in MP that I used to have in FC1 (and still to some degree in FC2) when I turned my view towards enemy planes. And was also stuttering when opponents turned on their radars, like my plane was calculating something that was way too far to be seen/detected anyway.

[MadTommy]

I sincerely hope they don't remove the 0x zoom.

 

My PC is no beast.. only a dual core Intel but i don't find it that bad.. turning the Shkval off and zooming in if required is just not an issue for me. & i have all setting maxed out, i still normally get 20+ fps with the zoom at 0x. (40+ fps with it off)

[Renato71]

Turning it on in singleplayer and having some drop in FPS is not that problematic, but FPS drop in multiplayer is significant and when generates significant stutter when turned on :(

[Panzertard]

I sincerely hope they don't remove the 0x zoom.

 

My PC is no beast.. only a dual core Intel but i don't find it that bad.. turning the Shkval off and zooming in if required is just not an issue for me. & i have all setting maxed out, i still normally get 20+ fps with the zoom at 0x. (40+ fps with it off)

 

This was a sarcastic reply from one of the guys in the thread here.

Please stop speculating - it will only confuse more people.

 

I can't add any information due the the NDA - but let's try not to jump to conclusions just yet. ;)

Edited April 27, 2010 by Panzertard

[ShadowVonChadwick]

This was a sarcastic reply from one of the guys in the thread here.

Please stop speculating - it will only confuse more people.

 

Doesn't look sarcastic to me

[159th_Viper]

Doesn't look sarcastic to me

 

OP disagrees.

 

I wrote this in sarcasm mode :P

[Boberro]

This was a sarcastic reply from one of the guys in the thread here.

Please stop speculating - it will only confuse more people.

 

I can't add any information due the the NDA - but let's try not to jump to conclusions just yet. ;)

 

It is not speculation anymore.

 

It is confirmed Su25T has been cut by the one of very important TV mode. Shame.

[159th_Viper]

Personally do not have an issue with 0xZoom as it is pretty useless when Visually Acquiring Ground Units as opposed to the good 'ol MK1-Eyeball.

 

As an example, herewith Targets acquired in T-Toad quick-start mission from approx 12 nautical Miles at default configuration. Normal Target recon upon Ingress (scanning the Coastline and interior) picked units up with relative ease:

 

 

 

 

Utilizing the Shkval 0xZoom to recon and attempt to ID units within same parameters without resorting to 'Head-out-of-Cockpit' and look and successfully locating said units is Highly Improbable:

 

 

 

 

Once Units located as per Visual-Eye scanning and 8XZoom utilized, situational awareness/threat detection and sorting is immediately increased/facilitated:

 

 

 

 

Personal Conclusion: 0xZoom is rarely, if ever, useful. Leads to decreased Situational Awareness which is inevitable when scanning for Ground Units at Speeds that Jets operate at when you sit with your Head in the Cockpit.

 

Further, if you're close enough to the Target that 8xZoom becomes a hinderance and you're necessitated to resort to 0xZoom, then Clear your Locker out and say your Prayers - You're on a 500km/h+ Rollercoaster to see St Peter..........You're Waaaaay to close to the HZ ;)

[Boberro]

This is it - below 3-4 km 8x zoom is IMHO too large to aim target effectively ;]

With new Vikhrs which can hit target even from <1km 0x zoom is completely needed. Too bad it has been simply removed.

[159th_Viper]

This is it - below 3-4 km 8x zoom is IMHO too large to aim target effectively ;]

With new Vikhrs which can hit target even from <1km 0x zoom is completely needed. Too bad it has been simply removed.

 

And that is my point - at that Range you're too close.

 

If circumstances however dictate that you can/have to prosecute a target from that distance, keeping in mind that your closure rate to target is measured in seconds, then you're better off relying on Visual Eyesight/HUD Picture to prosecute.

 

You are however correct that it's less-than-desirable solution that the feature has been removed in it's entirety. Can however surmise that it was not a decision taken lightly.......Definitely not a Game-Breaker though, more so if you're going to stick to accepted Weapons Engagement Parameters. Alternatively just Extend, Lock from beyond 4km's where 8x is not an issue and Prosecute :)

[Boberro]

Definitely not a Game-Breaker though, more so if you're going to stick to accepted Weapons Engagement Parameters. Alternatively just Extend, Lock from beyond 4km's where 8x is not an issue and Prosecute :)

 

Hope you 're right.

 

My current tactic at example 104th where I know mission is to fire Vikhr from => 11km and so on up to 2 km where the last unit I am trying to spot using 0x zoom.

 

Hope it will be similar after patch, even without lovely 0x :)

 

At least we can laugh of Hogs, where their pity 5cmx5cm TV with 2x zoom is well.... funny ^^.

[71st_Mastiff]

Well if they do that ; they need to increase the visability LOD on the targets i.e. ground units..:joystick: :book:

 

Hope you 're right.

 

My current tactic at example 104th where I know mission is to fire Vikhr from => 11km and so on up to 2 km where the last unit I am trying to spot using 0x zoom.

 

Hope it will be similar after patch, even without lovely 0x :)

 

At least we can laugh of Hogs, where their pity 5cmx5cm TV with 2x zoom is well.... funny ^^.

[Dr_Arrow]

It is not speculation anymore.

 

It is confirmed Su25T has been cut by the one of very important TV mode. Shame.

 

Who said that???? I hope that this is just another form of sarcasm or a really bad joke.

[Boberro]

Trust me, I wouldn't said this without confirmation :(

[Dr_Arrow]

that is really insane. Instead of fixing detail options of shkval, they will delete 0x zoom even for people that were happy with how it worked. If anyone has low FPS, is it really that to program macro to have shkval set to 8x zoom default??? I just cannot believe in such a lame solution - I have always used 0xzoom for shkval - it is very usefull when targeting buildings, ships or other big targets and ground stabilizing shkval. For me it works well, leave it as it is, cause this pseudo lame solution is much WORSE than no solution of the FPS problem.

 

And I also suggest ED to delete clouds, AFM, high poly models, shadows, cities and other things from the sim as they also create FPS problems for some people.

Edited April 28, 2010 by Dr_Arrow