Lockon 1.2.1 ...few thoughts on Flightmodel

[RvEYoda]

I'm interested in what part exactly in Fc2 is the cause of the wobbling, as I understand your

answer Fusion, it was at least partially or significantly reduced by disabling ACS?

 

This would indicate that it is a direct result of the flanker heritage aoa/g limiter.

[RvEFuSiOn]

I'm interested in what part exactly in Fc2 is the cause of the wobbling, as I understand your

answer Fusion, it was at least partially or significantly reduced by disabling ACS?

 

This would indicate that it is a direct result of the flanker heritage aoa/g limiter.

 

Is there any way to fix this so that the aircraft does not do the bouncing routine every time in a turn. The reason why i find this to be a problem is because you can never accurately judge your speed when looking outside your cockpit at all, due to the constant nose bobbing. It is as though it is scripted to bounce exactly the same way in all regimes of flight.

Peace

Edited May 14, 2010 by =RvE=FuSiOn

[mikoyan]

Maybe what we see in the video is a PIO? The mig-29 manual says that if the aircraft is incorrectly trimmed you can get into a PIO. It also on the real airplane there is a damper to prevent oscillations. external fuel tank can also create oscillations if it is half empty. (I guess if you pull the airplane the fuel changes the aircraft center of gravity as it moves back an fort ward)

lock-on flight model seems to e accurate but there are some things missing... like for example on the mig-29 (as stated on the manual) can enter a wing rock if you pull too hard overriding the AOA limiter. Asymmetrical loads are not simulated. over-stressing the aircraft is also missing since you can pull gs like crazy without damaging your wing fuel tanks. The mig has a stick kicker (this is not EDs fault since this could be addressed with a force feedback stick)

there are a lot of things that are not missing, like if you are not careful you can loose control if you do rolls with high alpha (the manual says that it is not recommended to to this) control inversions are also present in lock-on. The sluggishness of the aircraft in certain conditions; If you don't trim the aircraft you can get into PIOs.

 

If you are interested on reading the manual you can get a free preview here:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=NZhENgENhEQC&pg=SA6-PA6&lpg=SA6-PA6&dq=mig-29+aoa+limits&source=bl&ots=8KZT8-GVAG&sig=gikGcAExtkfWuqE5d5v7Tao6YGY&hl=en&ei=DtztS6qBCcSblgfog7W0CA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=mig-29%20aoa%20limits&f=false

[Moa]

Even a properly trimmed aircraft can oscillate in a motion called a 'damped phugoid' if the attitude is moved from trimmed position and the pilot then puts in no further input. The trim dampens the motion so it eventually settles back to the trimmed attitude. Have tried it personally in a real aircraft (RNZAF CT4B).

[RvEFuSiOn]

My tests have all been with the F-15C, I have not tested anything for the Mig29 or the Flankers, so I cannot comment about their performance in game.

I understand how an aircraft oscillates in various regimes of flight, however what's happening with the F-15C in FC2 is quite different.

It would be easier if everyone just tried these tests to see for them selves in the game instead of quoting lines from manuals for various aircraft, that way we would all be on the same page with what is currently implemented in the game and how it can be fixed or tweaked.

 

Peace

[GGTharos]

Most people seem to be agreeing with you, but I wouldn't expect a solution for SFM planes. This will be fixed with the AFM planes.

[RvEFuSiOn]

Most people seem to be agreeing with you, but I wouldn't expect a solution for SFM planes. This will be fixed with the AFM planes.

 

Well we can always Hope ;-)

At the moment the F-15C flies very well and matches the charts and I'm just hoping this small issue can be resolved so that the FM becomes even more enjoyable to fly with.

[IvanK]

Will test Fusion

[IvanK]

Having tested it as described I don't think it is that bad. In my case I have realistic head movement turned off (Because its unrealistic imo :).

 

However when the stick is quickly released from say a 7G steady pull the aircraft movement in response seems pretty realistic. The huge Head nod or Z axis movement however is not. This head nod gives the impression that the nose is bobbing all over the place where in reality the biggest movement is your head and sight line. ... thats my take on it anyway.

[rattler]

I will just add a quick response and it is for information only. First let me just say that I was a Simulation supervisor for Civil Aviation. Training New Air Traffic Controllers. So I would assume that our simulator was as close to the real thing as one can get. Multi-million dollar systems. My simple point and I speak from experience is that a simulator regardless of what it is and how much it costs, can never fully replicate the real thing. We come very very close but lets face it guys it is a simulator. I can show many examples of why a simulator can not react like the real thing but the post would be way to long. Enjoy what we have. Its fun, we get to meet lots of people and share ideas and get to do some cool mods. This is a great sim. and so is BS and a lot of others, but they are sims. It is for pleasure and in some cases training. We are very lucky to have a couple of Sims. from ED that show a lot of work so lets enjoy them, they, nor any sim. replicate Real Life, close but close is as good as it gets. Lets have fun guys and enjoy a couple of great sims. cheers.:)

Edited May 15, 2010 by rattler

[RvEFuSiOn]

Will test Fusion

 

I understand and appreciate your point of view IvanK

however what i am seeing flight model wise and visually in the cockpit are 2 different things.

Snapping from 20 - 23+ AOA to 1 AOA within a matter of a second when letting go of the stick.

Btw did you watch the AOA in a normal turn and then try it with ACS failure on?

 

Peace

[IvanK]

Can you make a small video Fusion showing exactly the situation you describe then we can be sure we are all looking at the same thing ?

 

I tried both with and without ACS. The difference (to me) was the rate of damping.

 

As AS said the real indication as to what is really going on lies in the relationship of the Velocity Vector (FPM) and the Horizon symbolgy. I dont see large phughoid like movements here when I release the stick.

 

I am also not sure if Joystick setup is going to affect this. I am running 80% saturation in the pitch value. I also have Joyrange=1024 and I have set Forcefeedback=false. I am running CH FIGHTERSTICK USB. These settings have imo dramatically improved the feel of all aircraft in FC2 and go a long way to reducing any PIO tendency.

 

Great document AS.

Edited May 16, 2010 by IvanK

[IvanK]

This is what I see ACS On 22units Alpha then release stick

 

[RvEFuSiOn]

IvanK you need to set saturation at 100%, at 80% you are effectively not pulling that extra 20%. Try it with those settings.

 

Furthermore your video exactly shows what i expected from 80% saturation on pitch and it is not evident because of this factor :-)

 

Peace

[IvanK]

Ok I will try at 100% however the settings I know have feel pretty much right on.

[RvEFuSiOn]

I understand that, however those settings don't allow you to squeeze the maximum amount of performance out of your jet.

Peace

[3Sqn_Sven]

Ok I will try at 100% however the settings I know have feel pretty much right on.

 

I'm running about 80% as well. Way too sensitive otherwise with a PC stick.

[RvEYoda]

Sven, if you say 80% cuz "way to sensitive otherwise", i guess you have saturation on Y=80%

I used to do that back in 1.12, basically due to the fact, that i luved to fly with linear (no curves) and it gave me a smooth pitch control, but dont you miss max deflections especially in heavy Split-S´es (not enuff AoA and bang-da-deck?)

Unfortunatly this (linear) doesnt work well in 2.0 for me so i have my curves (pitch) on 25% and sat=100% and no deads....feels good.

 

I run the same (almost)

27% pitch curve & no dead zones, the rest is linear.

[IvanK]

I have tried the 100% sat and 25% curve but prefer the 80% SAT in pitch axis. Limiting the SAT to 80% doesn't really seem to limit pitch input that much (if at all). Looking in external view on the ground Full Stab deflection with 100% SAT and 80% SAT looks pretty much the same to me though its hard to get the exact same viewpoint after playing with SAT settings.

 

What I do find though is that riding the G and or AOA limit is a lot easier with 80%SAT than with 100% SAT. For me its a lot easier to pull "To" the limit rather then rip straight through it. I guess its a SIM thing that AOA and G limits are kind off fuzzy limits and exceeding them doesnt have the same consequences as doing it in real life.

 

I see your point though that Stab input maybe limited however it doesn't seem to limit your manoeuvre abilities. You can still easily exceed both AOA and G limits with SAT 80%

 

As to Pitch bobbing, even with 100% SAT the effects seem much the same to those shown in Youtube video. Also I am running joyrange=1024.

[GGTharos]

This depends on the depth of the flight model. The SFM is pretty old and tired :)

 

Try the Su-25 and see if it gives you a better impression with respect to AoA.

 

 

What I do find though is that riding the G and or AOA limit is a lot easier with 80%SAT than with 100% SAT. For me its a lot easier to pull "To" the limit rather then rip straight through it. I guess its a SIM thing that AOA and G limits are kind off fuzzy limits and exceeding them doesnt have the same consequences as doing it in real life.

[IvanK]

In On the ground tests I did in FC2 Trimming did not increase Stab deflection.

 

i.e With Full back trim and Full back stick I get the same deflection (eyeballing in external view) as straight out Full back stick. The trim range seems to be limited to about 70-60% of Stab deflection.

[GGTharos]

I suggest checking in-flight g v stick deflection instead ... this is a simulator, not a real plane ... it is entirely possible that while stab deflection is attached to stick deflection, actual force might not be quite as straight forward correlated.

[IvanK]

With Full back stick then Full elevator trim I see NO stab movement:

 

(Edit with Y SAT set to 100%)

 

So I conclude Trim is limited to no more than Full Stab movement range.

 

Edited May 17, 2010 by IvanK

[IvanK]

Playing around with Y SAT values affects it for sure.

 

With Y SAT at 100% there is no difference in STAB deflection between Full backstick and Full backstick and full up elevator trim. The end point or limit is max Stab deflection.... i.e mechanical limit.

 

However if you reduce Y SAT to say 80% then Full Back stick gives a reduced Stab deflection, by then winding in Full up elevator trim you get the additional movement till the end position is again Full Stab deflection.

 

So setting a reduced value of y SAT limits Stab deflection with Full back stick but you can still get Full Stab deflection by winding in Full trim

 

Getting back to the FM affect though. If you can pull Limit AOA and limit G with 80% Y SAT is that not enough ?

 

In the AOA side of the house I cant see any valid reason to exceed max AOA as Drag goes over the roof and departure is likely and over the AOA limit I don't think you are going to see any rate increase either. There is a case for being able to pull more G in circumstances like avoiding the ground or if you need more rate to defeat a threat. That you can do in Hornet (since its only G limited with 33% Override available)though in an F16 once you reach the AOA or G limit thats it you are stuck there.

 

Its the slow speed regime where all this comes to the fore.

Edited May 17, 2010 by IvanK

[IvanK]

I am not arguing with you AS just stating what I am seeing. If you read my last post you will see that I agree with you ref limited control surface deflection and its effect in some regimes.

 

Setting up your joystick is a personal thing that's why I guess the developers allow you to tinker.