Lockon 1.2.1 ...few thoughts on Flightmodel

[Pilotasso]

Nose bouncing alert (mirage 2000) at 3:31 and after :)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDbeprsGty4

[159th_Viper]

HOW?

 

Options/Controls/Airframe(F-15 or other)/Axis Commands/Select Trim Pitch*Roll/Axis Tune/Set Saturation values slider to 20.

[GGTharos]

A bunch of fighters trim more like the Ka-50, IIRC, and for that, there's cougar-trim. It works wonderfully ;)

[Sov13t]

A bunch of fighters trim more like the Ka-50, IIRC, and for that, there's cougar-trim. It works wonderfully ;)

 

What is cougar-trim? Just hardware? or is this some sort of software based solution?

[GGTharos]

The TM Cougar has a function where you can assign a button/hat/whichever to trim. It trims to the position of the stick that you are currently holding, like in Black Shark, and yes, it's done in hardware ... sort of. Firmware I guess :D

[Sov13t]

The TM Cougar has a function where you can assign a button/hat/whichever to trim. It trims to the position of the stick that you are currently holding, like in Black Shark, and yes, it's done in hardware ... sort of. Firmware I guess :D

 

Neat. Waiting for A-10C stick, perhaps will make the switch to TM then.

 

I do wonder though, if there is anyway to make the trim "steps" smaller for better trim for us HAT Switch users.

[GGTharos]

I suggest that you instead assign a button to HH (altitude hold AP, twice, ie. on/off).

I would argue it's more realistic than fighting your trim button, but what do I know.

[EtherealN]

That's all fine and good, but remember that different control interfaces place different demands. To talk about "star-wars layout battle easy mode setups" is just silly and bordering on insulting to those who just want to set their control mappings to something that works with their non-real flight control equipment. How to map, say, the A10C with the TM Warthog HOTAS and an X52 are, for example, completely different propositions.

[EtherealN]

Not so much star wars as "easy mode". There's no inherent merit in making things harder than they have to be, and while the "real" control allocations tend to be good they only work if the controller one has is similar enough to the real thing.

 

What you are basically doing is accusing those who design their own schemes to fit their controllers of pursuing an "easy mode", and as I said that is silly. And we don't want to be silly. ;)

[Moa]

I suggest that you instead assign a button to HH (altitude hold AP, twice, ie. on/off).

I would argue it's more realistic than fighting your trim button, but what do I know.

 

Could you please confirm GG, altitude hold? Wouldn't attitude hold be a better trim (eg. can maintain climb or bank)?

[159th_Viper]

Altitude Hold trims you for Stable, Level flight for the Parameters of the Airframe at that moment, ie Weight/Asymmetrical Ordinance etc etc. In other words, you are relying on the AP to trim as opposed to manually attending to it. Desired result cannot be obtained by relying on Attitude-Hold.

 

Apart from Landing, I almost entirely rely on Emergency Levelling Mode in the Toad for my trimming requirements - Much easier and faster than manual trimming.

[IvanK]

Nose bouncing in the video ... your kidding thats direct pilot input in close in BFM ! In addition HUD VTR film is generally reasonbly limited in the frame rate department.

 

For the record Pilotasso the types I have operated are Mirage IIIO (FBW in pitch with Autocommand engaged) F18, A330 and my current mount A380.

 

EtheralN I am using trim on a button (Coolie hat) rather than a slider. So I dont think you can vary the value of say "1 Blip" saturation wise can you ?

Edited May 14, 2010 by IvanK

[RvEFuSiOn]

I watched the video Pilotasso, and Im not seeing the same thing you are seeing.... Lockon F-15 Nose bouncing problem is not there in that video you just posted... Do some dogfighting and you will see what i mean.

Peace

[GGTharos]

How does that whale handle? :D

[EtherealN]

Not a whale - an airship! :)

 

I was so close to trying to get a seat on the premier commercial flight, but those tickets were a bit too expensive on auction. :P

[IvanK]

I think you mean the "Dugong" GG, surprisingly well in fact :) the 2.5G limit is a little restrictive though.

[Pilotasso]

I watched the video Pilotasso, and Im not seeing the same thing you are seeing.... Lockon F-15 Nose bouncing problem is not there in that video you just posted... Do some dogfighting and you will see what i mean.

Peace

 

 

Just out of curiosity, what HOTAS again? And did you setup any dead zone on it?

[GGTharos]

Is that what they call it? :)

I have only flown a Katana, so I'm always interested to hear about how big aircraft handle. 2.5 does sound pretty tight - I assume its weight dependent.

The Katana can go up to 4g, but well...it's a bugsmasher :D

 

I think you mean the "Dugong" GG, surprisingly well in fact :) the 2.5G limit is a little restrictive though.

[Pilotasso]

Nose bouncing in the video ... your kidding thats direct pilot input in close in BFM ! In addition HUD VTR film is generally reasonbly limited in the frame rate department.

 

For the record Pilotasso the types I have operated are Mirage IIIO (FBW in pitch with Autocommand engaged) F18, A330 and my current mount A380.

 

EtheralN I am using trim on a button (Coolie hat) rather than a slider. So I dont think you can vary the value of say "1 Blip" saturation wise can you ?

 

:huh:

Not that I'm doubting your experience but how cant that be nose bouncing? Forward stick input several times per second during pitch up? The nose is going everywhere... I imagine you need several pounds of force to deflect the stick, I would strain my arm just to do that effect with such frequency of oscillation... and it doesn't help at all but to loose aiming... same as 3:00 exactly (but more subtile).

 

For others that just jumped in... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDbeprsGty4

Edited May 14, 2010 by Pilotasso

[RvEYoda]

I watched the video Pilotasso, and Im not seeing the same thing you are seeing.... Lockon F-15 Nose bouncing problem is not there in that video you just posted... Do some dogfighting and you will see what i mean.

Peace

 

Fusion can you do a test in Fc2, Test with ACS failure, see if the bounce is still there!

If it is no longer there, we probably have another case of our old friend the flanker a2a/G limiter

[IvanK]

All you are seeing in the video is the result of minor variations in G as a function of stick/force input by the pilot whilst manoeuvring. In the BFM environment you are moving your your body quite a bit, both to improve your view and tension the muscles (M1 etc), in addition the high G environment will add to this. it stands to reason that some of this will get transmitted to the stick. That imo is all you are seeing.

 

There is a saying in some fighter communities of the "Chin to stick effect" Its a bit tongue in cheek but it serves to remind the pilot that there is a tendency for the Stick to "follow" the pilots chin. In other words if you look back over your shoulder there is a tendency to move the stick in a similar fashion as if there were a string joining your chin and the stick top.

 

A typical fighter Stick force per g value is 6Lbs per g. So for 7G you are talking roughly 42lbs of pull. Any variation of the force will result in minor excursions in the G department. Mechanics also come in to play here depending on whether the FBW pick offs are from a Force sensing stick or a position sensing stick. In the case of the F18 (A-D at least) then the stick is position sensing (rudder pedals are force sensing), as you know in the F16 the stick is Force sensing with some pilot comfort Wiggle movement. In the transpoprt types its straight out Position sensing.

 

One of the specific Developmental Flight test routines is to test/certify a fighter for its tracking abilities. i.e. How well from a stability and flight control point of view can the pilot perfform a tracking task. Like holding the pipper on a target. If it cant do this its going to get defected until the problem is resolved. A "Nose bouncing" fighter is not going to be signed off by the test pilot.

Edited May 14, 2010 by IvanK

[EtherealN]

Chin-to-stick happens in automobiles too - friend of mine's mother ran off the road once when she saw a moose at the side of the road and looked after it, causing her arms to follow on the wheel... Ooops. :)

 

As far as aeroplanes though, first time I've actually heard that phrace but I definitely remember it happening to me. Instructors always told me to apply the minimal-grip method: never have a tighter grip on the stick than you have to, in order to minimize the risk of unintended input. (Though what I fly doesn't have FBW, the principle applies equally I'd expect)

[RvEFuSiOn]

Ok i just did some testing with ACS failures ON and OFF.

So far i gotta say with ACS Failures on, the aircraft feels much more like a real aircraft during turning and burning rather than with the ACS failures off.

My testing specifically is in the turn and burn regime of the aircraft.

 

First with No ACS failure:

Go in to a turn yank the stick back from about 400-450 kts and at this point let go of the stick completely and watch the nose bounce in to a sort of negative pitch, From 22+ AOA to 1 AOA in a matter of 1 second or so, This doesnt seem correct at all.

 

Second Test with ACS failure on:

Aircraft doesn't go from 20+ AOA to 1 AOA during a yank back on the stick during a simple horizontal turn, the rate at which the nose corrects itself is more natural (DURING TURNING).

The nose bobbing is not prevalent and the aircraft feels smoother during turning.

 

Now i havent talked about level flight at all because that doesnt seem to be much of a concern for me at the moment as much as thee turn and burn aspect of it.

 

IvanK since you are a real pilot can you please replicate what I have done and give us your thoughts on this, Id appreciate it. Thanks

 

Thats all from me for now, If anyone wants me to explain better in detail, I can take you physically in FC2 and display what im talking about in practical terms.

 

 

Peace

[Pilotasso]

Chin-to-stick happens in automobiles too - friend of mine's mother ran off the road once when she saw a moose at the side of the road and looked after it, causing her arms to follow on the wheel... Ooops. :)

 

As far as aeroplanes though, first time I've actually heard that phrace but I definitely remember it happening to me. Instructors always told me to apply the minimal-grip method: never have a tighter grip on the stick than you have to, in order to minimize the risk of unintended input. (Though what I fly doesn't have FBW, the principle applies equally I'd expect)

 

Never heard off the effect, neither by pilots nor normal people in cars, neither do I suffer from it. I usualy look over my rear mirrors dead spots for surprises (had a few scares) just before passing someone at highways and my arms stay in position... :huh: :D

[RvEFuSiOn]

Just out of curiosity, what HOTAS again? And did you setup any dead zone on it?

 

X52 Hotas, and i don't use dead zones, i have tried various curves though.

 

Peace