Exceptional anti-missile capabilities of the Patriot missile system

[RIPTIDE]

The British SeaWolf missile was tested and hit 4.5 inch naval shells in flight in the 1980's IIRC. Hitting fast moving targets is not that big a deal, especially if your radar is "looking up" while doing it (good background contrast). The Rolling Airframe Missile has similar capabilities. Mortar shells have also been destroyed in missile tests (eg. Arrow) but it is generally not economical to do so for most battlefield situations.

 

The poor performance of the Patriot in the First Gulf War was traced to clock drift resulting from a limitation in the number of bits used for the wall-clock chips (nb. this is not the system clock frequency chips). This clock was much more accurate than the clock in your PC but still not enough to keep systems synchronized for extended periods without drift. In missile interception, microseconds count. I believe this has now been fixed.

That was my understanding. Also can you tell if the problem with IDing friendlies has been fixed given the poor performance in friendly fire incidents.

[Prophet]

This pertains more to the AI. But in FC2 it seems the radar is always emitting.

 

Would be really sweet to see these SAMs shut down the radar and work together with other stations to defeat ARMs.

[isoul]

GG the Dhahran incident occured in first Gulf War.

 

I still remember the world (especially middle east countries) "frozen reaction" when they (falsely) realized that Sadam could hit targets accurately and Patriots could guarantee safety. They didn't realized that Iraq had an extremely lucky hit in Dhahran! SCUDs are inaccurate missiles and Iraqi improvements to range worsen the accuracy even further. Israel was about to enter war back then but hopefully it didn't...

 

Actually, the Patriot's radar detected the missile and calculated where to look for it next correctly(given the data it had), but due to time drift (1/3 of a sec.) it "looked" at the wrong part of the sky. So no interception was ever tried.

Edited June 10, 2010 by isoul

[SFJackBauer]

Fly a Su-25T at 25000 feet. Max IAS with 2xKh-58U+2xFuel is 500km/h, without fuel tanks is 540km/h, towards the Patriot. It will lock on you from 60nm, and at 35nm fire 2 missiles simultaneously (assuming a battery of 8 launchers).

 

Break left, put SAM at 60 deg off right. Missiles will go active but eventually run out of steam. Once RWR goes off and / or you see missiles self-destructing, turn inboud SAM. They launch at you, break right, put SAM at 60 deg off your left. Missiles trashed, turn hot, SAM launch, break left. Missiles trashed.

 

Now you must be close enough (~20nm) to launch, and still around 7km/24000 feet altitude. Turn hot, ripple fire both Kh-58 with 1-2 sec interval. More SAMs inbound at you, but now you can turn around and go home since your job is done. Patriot fires at inboud ARMs but closure is high and hopefully your missiles will come through.

 

Speed of Kh-58 on time of hit would be around 1000 knots / Mach 1.5. In my first test both missiles reached their target.

 

Of course this is not intended to replicate any real life behavior or tactic. But it works in FC2.

Edited June 10, 2010 by SFJackBauer

[isoul]

Nice approach SFJackBauer and the high closure is

 

Personally prefer to "replicate" SEAD tactics. Approach at low altitude behind cover, get a bit high just to launch missiles and go down again. Of course this requires to plan your route carefully and depend on terrain but when you are in the air you risk less. You need to launch at least 2 missiles (I found that Kh-25MP is a good solution cause SAM has less time to react).

 

I 've position the SAM site on a plain, well away from mountains, where you have little cover for almost half the way to the radar and I succeed several times in destroying it without any remarkable effort.

[tflash]

I find it strange that you all mention to great effectiveness of Patriot in game. I was going to post whether it actually works, since in all missions I make the AI aircraft have no issue at all disabling a Patriot or S-300 system. I made AI-only missions involving SU-25T where they disable consistently the Patriot radar with the first missile.

When I fly it myself, I can safely engage the Patriot without ever being bothered. I guess something is wrong? The most deadly are the SHORAD systems.

I would say, on the basis of the missions included, that Kh-58 and Kh-25MP are incredibly effective. Who needs stealth?

FT kill S-300 Su-25T.miz

FT kill Patriot Su-25T.miz

[PFunk]

The Patriot had a hard time managing to hit SCUD missiles in Gulf War 1. I cannot believe it has the ability to take out an ARM. Just seems a little hinky.

[BlueRidgeDx]

The Patriot had a hard time managing to hit SCUD missiles in Gulf War 1. I cannot believe it has the ability to take out an ARM. Just seems a little hinky.

 

Apparently reading the thread is too much to ask.

 

As stated in prior posts, the Patriot hit SCUDs very easily almost 25 years ago in WWDS. However, the hits were not always effective, since the first hit often only caused the missile to break-up into sections. Since the missile is on a downward unguided ballistic trajectory at interecept, the warhead was often able to survive and continue on its ballistic path to impact.

 

After break-up, subsequent Patriot missiles had several large pieces of SCUD missile to choose from. Unless a patriot picked the warhead from the rest of the debris, there was no stopping it.

 

In the intervening time, there have been numerous enhancements to the radar and missile systems. The current PAC-3 is a Kinetic Kill Vehicle, does not have fuzing or frag issues to consider, and has a stated counter ARM capability according to US Army Operational Test and Evaluation (OT&E).

[topol-m]

Reviving a two year old thread, rly? :huh:

[marcos]

Recently I created a mission where I pitted my favorite Su-25T against a MIM-104 Patriot SAM system.

 

What made me wonder was Patriot's exceptional anti-missile capabilities. The Patriot system I was after had 4 launchers and one radar and managed to shoot down many of my ARM missiles(Kh-29MP and Kh-25MP).

 

I wonder if Patriot missile system is able to defeat such small and fast missiles. From what I 've found :

 

1) Kh-29 weights approx 700kg and, in general, reaches speeds no less that 900km/h

2) Kh-25MP weight no more than 400kg and travels at speeds approx. 1000-1600 km/h

 

While I didn't found the maximum speed of a SCUD missile, its weight (varies from ~4.5-6.5 tons depending on the variant) , dimensions and range are such that I can't believe its faster than Kh-25/29 missiles.

 

So... if the Patriot's success against SCUD missile, which is quite a large target, was revealed to be quite low (someone even claims to be 10%) how come the success rate against ARM missile is so good. Is this right???

 

For the history :

I did managed to destroy the Patriot's radar several times with Kh-25MP missiles. No kill was scored with Kh-29MP were the Patriot seems to defeat them easily. All launches were near max range while I was at low altitude. I usually launched missiles in pairs. I suspect that the success rate of the Kh-25MP is because this missile is fired from closer distance so that Patriot doesn't have enough time to launch enough missiles to have a succeful result.

The SCUD is a ballistic missile and is an order of magnitude faster than a Kh-29 (Mach 5 to Mach 8 depending on variant). Early versions of Patriot were aimed at ballistic missiles only but later PAC-3 variants with the MSE (Missile Segment Enhancement) can counter all threats down to sea-level.

 

PAC-3 versions also have 16 missiles per vehicle so you can't effectively disable them by firing 4 ARMs.

Edited December 17, 2012 by marcos

[Geskes]

Patriot has been upgraded since gw1. The patriots in the gulf war had simpler technology, get close and go boom. This will not evaporate ballistic missiles. Nowadays with upgraded patriots they will try to hit the target head on which is more effective.

[marcos]

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/PAC-3.html

 

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed/data/mfc/pc/pac-3-missile/mfc-pac-3-pc.pdf

 

Lockheed Martin is producing the combat-proven Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC-3) Missile under production contracts from the U.S. Army Air and Missile Defense Program Executive Office and multiple international customers. The PAC-3 Missile is being incorporated into the Patriot air defense system.

 

The ‘hit-to-kill’ PAC-3 Missile is the world’s most advanced, capable and powerful terminal air defense missile. It defeats the entire threat: tactical ballistic missiles (TBMs), cruise missiles and aircraft. The PAC-3 Missile is a quantum leap ahead of any other air defense missile when it comes to the ability to protect the Warfighter in their defining moments.

 

The PAC-3 Missile is a high velocity interceptor that defeats incoming targets by direct, body-to-body impact. PAC-3 Missiles, when deployed in a Patriot battery, will significantly increase the Patriot system's firepower, since 16 PAC-3s load-out on a Patriot launcher, compared with four of the legacy Patriot PAC-2 missiles. One hundred percent effective in Operation Iraqi Freedom, PAC-3 Missiles are now deployed with U.S. and allied forces.

 

Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control, Dallas, Texas, is the prime contractor on the PAC-3 Missile Segment upgrade to the Patriot air defense system. The PAC-3 Missile Segment upgrade consists of the PAC-3 Missile, a highly agile hit-to-kill interceptor, the PAC-3 Missile canisters (in four packs), a fire solution computer and an Enhanced Launcher Electronics System (ELES). These elements are integrated into the Patriot system, a high to medium altitude, long-range air defense missile system providing air defense of ground combat forces and high-value assets.

 

The PAC-3 Missile uses a solid propellant rocket motor, aerodynamic controls, attitude control motors (ACMs) and inertial guidance to navigate. The missile flies to an intercept point specified prior to launch by its ground-based fire solution computer, which is embedded in the engagement control station. Target trajectory data can be updated during missile flyout by means of a radio frequency uplink/downlink.

 

Shortly before arrival at the intercept point, the PAC-3 Missile's on board Ka band seeker acquires the target, selects the optimal aim point and terminal guidance is initiated. The ACMs, which are small, short duration solid propellant rocket motors located in the missile forebody, fire explosively to refine the missile's course to assure body-to-body impact.

 

The PAC-3 Missile was selected as the primary interceptor for the multi-national Medium Extended Air Defense System (MEADS). Managed by the NATO MEADS Management Agency (NAMEADSMA), MEADS is a model transatlantic development program focused on the next generation of air and missile defense.

[GGTharos]

The Patriot was capable of engaging certain ARMs before the PAC-3 upgrade IIRC. Which ones exactly I don't know, that part was censored out of the documents.

[PFunk]

Interesting.

 

Realistic? Yes. Also a pain in the rear? Yes, as well.

 

So you'd essentially want to fire two ARMs at one PAC-3 site? One to decoy the SAMs and one to actually hit the site?

[PFunk]

Of course, if SAM systems worked nearly as well as the literature handed out to prospective customers suggested, we'd have shot down every airplane in existence. Twice.

[blahdy]

So you'd essentially want to fire two ARMs at one PAC-3 site? One to decoy the SAMs and one to actually hit the site?

 

Both ARMs will get intercepted. As GGTharos said, these systems are designed to handle saturation attacks. If you launch several missiles at them, for as long as they have ammo and guidance channels available, they'll fire back on every one of them.

 

ARMs are well within Patriot target capabilities (as far as success rate, that I don't know). The notion that Patriot cannot engage or much less even detect Kh-25MP (common ARM threat set against Patriot and Hawk sites during late 80's) is just bs. Patriot consistently engages and destroys PAAT targets that are smaller than ballistic missiles and travels at Mach 4+ in non-ballistic, maneuvering SSM profiles.

 

 

Since we're reviving the old thread, regarding a previous post about clock drift causing Patriot to miss targets during GW1 -- this is actually incorrect. Clock drift had nothing to do with the way TVM functioned. The clock drift was related to placement of range gate while tracking the incoming hostile target (in this instance, a ballistic missile).

 

Having a faulty time while analyzing return pulse will result in the target track being placed out of the range gate, thereby resulting in track being dropped and interception not even being attempted in the first place. This is what happened in Dharan incident in GW1.

 

 

As for Patriots actually missing the targets during GW1, that was guidance and fusing issue related to a high speed ballistic target where hits were ineffective. (and also remember that MIM-104D PAC-2 developed during late 80's were programmed to fuse primarily against Soviet Tochka TBMs which were widely placed all over Europe -- those missiles travel slower at Mach 5; Scud comes down much quicker -- upwards of Mach 7)

 

During GW2, PAC-2 GEMs and PAC-3s had perfect engagement-to-intercept ratios. Improvements made to GEM seeker head, including low noise seeker and fusing improvements paid off dividends in 2003. PAC-3 ERINT on the other hand was used in only 1 ballistic missile engagement (the other was friendly fire against TACAIR) and it intercepted its target, still giving it 100% success rate to date (as there has not been any further combat firing of pac-3 to date).

[Heli]

[Heli]