Help on Double beaming a missile

[winz]

You closure speed will be bigger than 144km/h.

What you are trying to do is make you closure speed match a closure speed of a stationary ground object (i.e. a house), so the radar thinks you're a stationary ground object and discard you.

 

If the enemy is flying i.e 400knots, then you want the closure speed to be close to 400knots (because that's the speed he is closing on stationary target). If you put your target on 3 or 9 clock position then you have exactly the same closure speed as his airspeed - because you are nor flying to him, nor away from him.

[thaFunkster]

O dear, looks like I added more confusion to the mix. I apologise.

 

It's not an easy concept to explain, let alone if English is not your first language.

[GGTharos]

475. 350 is the very bottom of the speed you want to have, and the only reason you should be there is because you just completed an instantaneous (MAX G) turn from 475.

 

Saying that about speed, fly at just over corner speed when your in hot territory. (~350 knots for F-15) when you can. Too fast and you'll turn to wide, too slow and you'll lose energy too fast.

[GGTharos]

Oh I misunderstood GGTharos there, you mean don't add 144km/h to your airspeed but that is your airspeed. Oh ok sorry.:doh: I just tried going 144km/h, but crashed. What would that airspeed be in imperial units, or is that imperial?

 

In imperial it is about 90KTS.

 

And of course you'll crash if you try to fly 144kph in a fighter. This is closure (GROUND SPEED, not AIR SPEED), not your speed. Closure and your speed are not the same thing (Closure is the part of your speed pointed towards the enemy, added to the part of the speed of the enemy pointed towards you).

 

The way to make your closure 0 respective to his ground closure is to accurately put your enemy on your 3-9 line. You don't need a closure indicator ... just put him on the 3-9 accurately and then you KNOW the closure is what it needs to be.

 

But as GGTharos said at that speed you will have hardly any energy to pull a turn to start the engagement.

Is this mainly a defensive maneuver since you aren't attacking him, or when should you stop and turn back into him so that you can lock him up and attack?

 

At 144kph you don't even have the energy to fly, let alone dodge anything ;)

First and foremost, you have shot at the bandit before you went into the notch, right? If not, then you have become completely defensive, and turning back to re-engage will result in you being shot at without an opportunity to shoot back in general. This is not a huge deal if you know where he is and he's far away, but if he's close, your only option is to turn tail and run and hope there's friendlies in the area to get him off you.

 

All notching does is break the radar lock of the radar that's locking you, nothing else. Because typically nothing=beaming, you are also putting yourself in a good position to dodge missiles (you fight missiles with aspect) - however, unless you're packing something that's autonomous, you can't easily go into a notch and maintain the offensive, and you have to use techniques to delay the other guy's missile approach so that your missile gets to him first.

[shackman]

In imperial it is about 90KTS.

The way to make your closure 0 respective to his ground closure is to accurately put your enemy on your 3-9 line. You don't need a closure indicator ... just put him on the 3-9 accurately and then you KNOW the closure is what it needs to be.

 

 

 

At 144kph you don't even have the energy to fly, let alone dodge anything ;)

First and foremost, you have shot at the bandit before you went into the notch, right? If not, then you have become completely defensive, and turning back to re-engage will result in you being shot at without an opportunity to shoot back in general. This is not a huge deal if you know where he is and he's far away, but if he's close, your only option is to turn tail and run and hope there's friendlies in the area to get him off you.

 

All notching does is break the radar lock of the radar that's locking you, nothing else. Because typically nothing=beaming, you are also putting yourself in a good position to dodge missiles (you fight missiles with aspect) - however, unless you're packing something that's autonomous, you can't easily go into a notch and maintain the offensive, and you have to use techniques to delay the other guy's missile approach so that your missile gets to him first.

Yeah I misunderstood you earlier 144 is the closure not airspeed.:doh: So it mainly is used as a defensive maneuver once you have a missile or 2 inbound towards him you leave and see if they do their job.

[GGTharos]

You can also use it as a sneaky maneuver - after all being in the notch = not showing up on radar. But yes, it is most commonly used against a defensive maneuver. It obviously won't work against EOS or heat-seekers though.

[shackman]

Well I finally talked to a master about the notch gate, and that was my dad. he is a former submariner and says the Mk 48 torpedo uses the same type of scan, using the doppler effect to track targets. It can't track anything going left to right.

 

Now I don't know if this is true to LO but the notch gate doesn't have anything to do with speed. It only has to deal with position. get the guy on your 3/9 and KEEP HIM THERE! So if you 2 are flying perpendicular then you need to continuously turn so he stays either at your 3/9. Cause if he slips to your 8/2 he can pick you up. But since you are making a turn keeping him on your 3/9 soon you'll come around so much that you might be in firing position.

 

That sound about right?

[GGTharos]

Well I finally talked to a master about the notch gate, and that was my dad. he is a former submariner and says the Mk 48 torpedo uses the same type of scan, using the doppler effect to track targets. It can't track anything going left to right.

 

That sounds right.

 

Now I don't know if this is true to LO but the notch gate doesn't have anything to do with speed. It only has to deal with position. get the guy on your 3/9 and KEEP HIM THERE! So if you 2 are flying perpendicular then you need to continuously turn so he stays either at your 3/9. Cause if he slips to your 8/2 he can pick you up. But since you are making a turn keeping him on your 3/9 soon you'll come around so much that you might be in firing position.

 

That sound about right?

The notch gate has EVERYTHING to do with speed. It is a bracket around ground closure. But you're right in that it doesn't have to do with how FAST you're going, but rather what your closure to the attacker is. The WAY to achieve the desired closure is to put the bandit on the 3-9 line, and keep him there if you don't want him to reacquire.

 

And no, if you keep turning to keep him on your 3/9, you won't ever 'turn enough' to arrive at a firing position since you're erm..turning to keep him on the 3-9.

[shackman]

Well I just tried doing that with the FBP in LOMAC putting a SU27 at my 9 and me flying perpendicular to him and he still hit me. I guess it's an art that takes time to master.

 

And when i meant speed I meant it doesn't have to do anything with your speed just the closure rate.

[GGTharos]

AI cheat. As long as he doesn't hit you with a radar missile you're doing it right.

[shackman]

It was an R-27 but I had him like less than 4nm out so i think it was too close for the effect to work.

[GGTharos]

That's within 10km, so the gate is cut in half (72kph). That means you have to be super-accurate with your notch, and if the missile is still tracking ... ortho-roll.

[shackman]

Thats what I thought, way too close for a noob.

 

out of curiosity is a there a way you could possibly record using this effect in TACVIEW and then pm me or post it to see how it works, and how to set it up?

[GGTharos]

You mean record a notch? Sure, I'll see if I can get you a track.

 

Edit: Here you are.

Tacview-20100703-123843.txt.acmi.zip

Edited July 3, 2010 by GGTharos

[shackman]

You mean record a notch? Sure, I'll see if I can get you a track.

Thanks don't pressure yourself if you're busy.:thumbup:

[GGTharos]

Let me know how it works out for you.

Tacview will show you the angle from my 12 to the bandit if you orient it correctly, displayed numerically on the button above the tactical display. I think you'll find my beaming quite accurate :P

[asparagin]

out of curiosity is a there a way you could possibly record using this effect in TACVIEW and then pm me or post it to see how it works, and how to set it up?

 

.. that means you haven't even watch the track I posted earlier.:mad:

Because I gave especially a track where I notch the SU-27 (twice) and escape 2 of his R-27.

[shackman]

.. that means you haven't even watch the track I posted earlier.:mad:

Because I gave especially a track where I notch the SU-27 (twice) and escape 2 of his R-27.

No I watched it I just didn't notice that sorry man.:(

 

I've gone over all of them

[Udat]

Shackman you need to have the same lockon version as GG for his track to work for you. I'll see if I can make one for you as I have 1.0 installed. (Assuming GG is using 2.0)

[shackman]

Shackman you need to have the same lockon version as GG for his track to work for you. I'll see if I can make one for you as I have 1.0 installed. (Assuming GG is using 2.0)

I didn't mean his track, I meant an acmi file to view in Tacview.

[thaFunkster]

I have another question about notching.

 

If you are doing it right, then that means that the signal from the enemy will disapear from your RWR correct? If that happens, how do you keep him on your 3/9? Visually then becomes the only way to do it, so if you are at long range, then you have no way to gauge your relative position.

 

I am asking in the case where you want to dissapear from radar, rather than just dodge a missile.

 

Second question: A lot of missiles are active or semi active such as the Aim-120, so even if you manage to dissapear from your attackers radar, then the missile will probably still pick you up with its onboard radar? Correct?

[Nate--IRL--]

I have another question about notching.

 

If you are doing it right, then that means that the signal from the enemy will disapear from your RWR correct?

 

Not correct, you will still see his radar emissions. You may lose the Lock tone though.

 

Second question: A lot of missiles are active or semi active such as the Aim-120, so even if you manage to dissapear from your attackers radar, then the missile will probably still pick you up with its onboard radar? Correct?

 

For active missiles you must then try to notch the missile instead of the attacking aircraft. For Semi-active you must notch the Attacking aircraft.

 

Nate

[RIPTIDE]

That's within 10km, so the gate is cut in half (72kph). .

Can you expand on this please?

[nomdeplume]

That's within 10km, so the gate is cut in half (72kph).

Can you expand on this please?

 

The game has two "notch gates" depending on the distance. Below 10 km distant, the radar is less easily tricked into thinking you're part of the ground clutter so you have to be more accurate with your notching. I believe this is to simulate the stronger radar returns at closer range, and to make it harder to break a lock when you're at very close range.

 

From the way this has been mentioned here, I gather that this is a straight cut-off value. i.e. at 10.00001 km distance, you need to be within +/- 144 kph. But at 9.99999 km, this suddenly drops to +/- 72 kph.

[RIPTIDE]

The game has two "notch gates" depending on the distance. Below 10 km distant, the radar is less easily tricked into thinking you're part of the ground clutter so you have to be more accurate with your notching. I believe this is to simulate the stronger radar returns at closer range, and to make it harder to break a lock when you're at very close range.

 

From the way this has been mentioned here, I gather that this is a straight cut-off value. i.e. at 10.00001 km distance, you need to be within +/- 144 kph. But at 9.99999 km, this suddenly drops to +/- 72 kph.

Ah. Understood. I was of the impression that it was a sort of linear progression at some point but its good to know that 10k is the key here.

 

I'll also add this to would be notchers. At mid range, on the Ru jets, don't confuse notching with rear aspect in practice. The range at which a radar will pick up a bandit in pursuit is reduced drastically compared to head on. I think the figure was something 20nm on the Med PRF stoke on a F-15 radar, which should be comparable to the medium PRF on a Su-27 although I welcome any correction.

 

So if you are cranking into a notch and you put your bandit on the 3 o clock according to the SPO, try to make sure that you haven't gone a little too far with it and simple gone rear aspect. The attacker will likely loose the lock, but will regain it shortly as he closes if you've overcooked the notch into more of a side on tail chase. The SPO is great in many ways, but its lack of graduated indication beyond 3 o clock and its stepwise nature before 3 o clock mean that you should get a feel using the rudder to the precise position of the attacker. And as has been said above, this will be even more important at <10kms.