Question on Afghanistans AAA/SAM capabilities

[mig29movt]

Well, does anyone of you guys (maybe some veterans) know something about this topic?

I read about the US goverment supporting the mujahideen with various equipment also some Stinger and Strela rocket launchers back in the 80s when the soviet union was at war with them.

Those rockets were a huge problem for the russian helos e.g. Mi-24 attack helicopters...

 

Is this problem still existing? I mean for the NATO troops down there at the moment or are there just a few/no rockets around?

 

Do you still have to watch out for enemy SAM rockets on every flight or are these times over nowadays?

[RIPTIDE]

Well, does anyone of you guys (maybe some veterans) know something about this topic?

I read about the US goverment supporting the mujahideen with various equipment also some Stinger and Strela rocket launchers back in the 80s when the soviet union was at war with them.

Those rockets were a huge problem for the russian helos e.g. Mi-24 attack helicopters...

 

Is this problem still existing? I mean for the NATO troops down there at the moment or are there just a few/no rockets around?

 

Do you still have to watch out for enemy SAM rockets on every flight or are these times over nowadays?

I think the Soviet Union lost about 350 non recoverable helicopters. More than this figure were hit, but made back to base, or made hard landing and were repaired in the field. I saw a figure before of something like 7% of these helicopter losses were due to Shoulder launched sams. Most helicopter losses were Mi-8's. And most were brought down my small arms and heavy machine gun fire. As for the Stinger, remember the batteries that were made for them back then are long run out, and it would be hard for the Taliban types to equip them with suitable replacements.

Edited June 21, 2010 by RIPTIDE

[Lulac]

Well, after more then 30 years I doubt that any Stingers (if is left some) are still operational. One is for sure, I would not dare, due to age, to fire from that thing :music_whistling:

 

PS. I read somewhere that CIA already take care of it . . . they,allegedly, buy out from mujaheddin . . .

[Groove]

Todays threat is for sure lower than back then. Still the crews watch out and usually fly a security deck to have time to react on any launches. The intelligence also plays a big role. Note that i've got that "knowledge" from some books about nowadays deployments in Afghanistan.

[AlphaOneSix]

The MANPAD threat, while it exists, is very minimal, and the primary threat has always been and continues to be small arms and RPG fire. Also, it's worthwhile to note that almost none (actually, I think the number is 0, but I cannot confirm that at the moment) of the shootdowns have occurred at night.

 

There have been no aircraft losses in Afghanistan to guided missiles.

 

Only one fixed-wing has been hit by ground fire in Afghanistan, and that was an F-15E doing a low level "show of force" and during a post-flight inspection, ground crews found a single bullet hole (AK or PKM assumed) in one of the conformal tanks.

Edited July 23, 2010 by AlphaOneSix

[RIPTIDE]

Good news: I have access to all of the intelligence summaries for aviation threats for Afghanistan. :D

 

Bad news: They are all classified. :(

 

WHat I can say is what is already known more-or-less publicly, which is that the MANPAD threat, while it exists, is very minimal, and the primary threat has always been and continues to be small arms and RPG fire. Also, it's worthwhile to note that almost none (actually, I think the number is 0, but I cannot confirm that at the moment) of the shootdowns have occurred at night.

 

There have been no aircraft losses in Afghanistan to guided missiles.

 

Only one fixed-wing has been hit by ground fire in Afghanistan, and that was an F-15E doing a low level "show of force" and during a post-flight inspection, ground crews found a single bullet hole (AK or PKM assumed) in one of the conformal tanks.

And that harrier on the tarmac about 5 years ago.

[AlphaOneSix]

And that harrier on the tarmac about 5 years ago.

 

Well since that was not caused by surface to air fire, I have no information about it.

[IvanK]

A recent NOTAM was published covering civil flights over Afghan airspace (yes it happens every day). The NOTAM dealt with minimum altitudes/Heights for operation. The NOTAM was as a direct result of the still existing threat or a small resurgence in the threat.

[KungFuCharlie]

To answer the question, at least in part, there was a threat back in the opening stages of OEF but from what I understand now it is not a problem. Of course it wasn't really a problem back then either... we would fly two Hornets above the threat range of the shoulder launches SAMs the Taliban had with two more Hornets trailing by a few miles. When the Taliban would fire off a few at the lead planes, the trailing planes lazed them with our FLIR pods (Marines don't get the good pods like the AF does) and drop a LGB on the launch site. After awhile the Taliban figured out that we were above their threat range so they started launching them from the tops of mountains. What they failed to comprehend is airspace is 3D and we just started flying our bait at higher altitudes.

[bumfire]

The MANPAD threat, while it exists, is very minimal, and the primary threat has always been and continues to be small arms and RPG fire. Also, it's worthwhile to note that almost none (actually, I think the number is 0, but I cannot confirm that at the moment) of the shootdowns have occurred at night.

 

There have been no aircraft losses in Afghanistan to guided missiles.

 

Only one fixed-wing has been hit by ground fire in Afghanistan, and that was an F-15E doing a low level "show of force" and during a post-flight inspection, ground crews found a single bullet hole (AK or PKM assumed) in one of the conformal tanks.

 

A couple of aircraft have been shotdown by missiles in Afghanistan, 2007 a uk helo was downed and before that a US helo? both with IR missiles.

 

Both were hushed up and the cause attirubuted to something other than missiles.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/afghanistan-taliban-missile-strike-chinook

Edited July 26, 2010 by bumfire

[AlphaOneSix]

A couple of aircraft have been shotdown by missiles in Afghanistan, 2007 a uk helo was downed and before that a US helo? both with IR missiles.

 

Both were hushed up and the cause attirubuted to something other than missiles.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jul/25/afghanistan-taliban-missile-strike-chinook

 

 

Fair enough. My info says none. Your info says two but with liberal sprinkles of words like "probable" and "suspected". Who knows for sure? Not you and not me, that is for certain.

[bumfire]

No, its been clarified, it came out yesterday, people from within the UK gov have admitted it so the news said this morning.

 

A whole pile of info was leaked to wikileaks and in the 90 thousand files leaked, was the fact that IR missiles have been used to shoot down helos.

 

Up until yesterday I would of went along with you and said none were shotdown as thats what we were lead to believe, obviously for security reasons, but since the leaked materiall became public knowledge it has been verified that the downings indeed did happen, it was all over the UK news this morning.

[mig29movt]

Guardian Map

 

No doubt the AC-130 was able to evade those missiles =)

 

Edited July 26, 2010 by mig29movt

[mig29movt]

Interesting read, randomly found on wikileaks

 

As far as I can understand (civilian...), strike eagle is a group of 2xUH-60 Blackhawks

 

Define irony: Evading missiles you once delivered to them

 

But who is Storm2? A Helo crew member?

 

AIRCREW WERE NOT FLYING THE ABOVE ROUTE, BUT IT WAS THE CLOSEST ONE TO THEIRS.

 

STRIKE EAGLE 05 TIMELINE

 

ALL TIMES INDICATED ARE ZULU WITH TODAYS DATE (05JUL05)

 

0158: STRIKE EAGLE 05 AND 04 DEPARTED KAF EN ROUTE TO ORGUN-E

0358: BOTH AIRCRAFT ARRIVED AT ORGUN-E

0409: BOTH AIRCRAFT DEPARTED ORGUN-E FOR WAZAH KHWAH

0414: STRIKE EAGLE 05S CMWS EJECTED 2 COCKTAILS AND SPC VEROST ALERTED CREW TO TWO MISSILE LAUNCHES

0415: INITIAL SEARCH OF SUSPECTED LAUNCH SITE BEGAN

0450: INITIAL SEARCH ENDED, BOTH AIRCRAFT RETURNED TO ORGUN-E IOT LOAD C2 AND AERIAL RECON PACKAGES

0530: BOTH AIRCRAFT DEPARTED ORGUN-E WITH C2/AERIAL RECON PACKAGES (STRIKE EAGLE 04 AERIAL RECON PACKAGE, STRIKE EAGLE 05 C2 PACKAGE)

0534: STORM 26 MADE AWARE OF SITUATION THROUGH MIRC

0720: END OF MISSION CALLED FOR C2/AERIAL RECON

0742: BOTH AIRCRAFT DEPARTED ORGUN-E WITH ORIGINAL PACKAGE

0940: BOTH AIRCRAFT ARRIVED AT KAF, CALL END OF MISSION

1010: PART I OF AIRCREW DEBRIEF CONDUCTED

1330: PART II OF AIRCREW DEBRIEF CONDUCTED

 

CREWMEMBERS:

 

STRIKE EAGLE 04 STRIKE EAGLE 05:

PC: CW3 FOOSE, THOMAS PC: CPT HALTER, SCOTT

PI: 1LT PIKNER, STEPHAN PI: 1LT DANSBERGER, SEAN

CE: SPC ROBINSON, CHRIS CE: SPC VEROST, CHRISTOPHER

CE: SPC MISEJKA, SHANNON CE: SPC MILLER, JAMES

 

STRIKE EAGLE 04 AND 05 DEPARTED KAF EN ROUTE TO ORGUN-E AS A FLIGHT OF 2 X UH-60LS. AIRCRAFT WERE HDG 75? (ESTIMATED AND FLUID), 300 AGL, 100-110 KIAS, FREE CRUISE. FLIGHT TO ORGUN-E WAS WITHOUT INCIDENT. AFTER LOADING PAX (FURY 06) AND EQUIPMENT, THE AIRCRAFT DEPARTED ORGUN-E EN ROUTE TO WAZAH KHWAH., HDG 203? (ESTIMATED), 300 AGL, 110 KIAS, 60? STAGGERED RIGHT FORMATION (STRIKE EAGLE 04 LEAD, 05 TRAIL), 15 DISC SEPARATION (ESTIMATED). APPROXIMATELY 5 MINUTES AFTER DEPARTURE FROM ORGUN-E, THE RIGHT SIDE DOOR GUNNER OF STRIKE EAGLE 05 REPORTED 2 X MISSILE LAUNCH FROM THE 5:30-6:00 OCLOCK POSITION AND RIGHT SIDE FLARE COCKTAIL DISPERSAL. AT THE SAME STRIKE EAGLE 05 PI REPORTED APR-39 INDICATED MISSILE, MISSILE 5:30 AND DISPLAYED THE APPROPRIATE QUADRANT INFORMATION. ANALYST COMMENTS: THE CREW CHIEF AND PASSENGER REPORTED THAT THE SMOKE TRAILS WERE ABOUT 30FT APART COMING UP TO JUST ABOVE THE AIRCRAFT AND TURNED TOWARDS IT. THE SUSPECTED POO WAS APPROXIMATELY 50-80 FT TO THE REAR OF THE AIRCRAFT. HOWEVER, BOTH LOST SIGHT OF THEM SHORTLY THEREAFTER AND RIGHT LEFT SIDE CREW CHIEF COULD NOT REACQUIRE. END COMMENTS. THE PC THEN ESTABLISHED A DECENT AND LEVELED AT AROUND 100 AGL AND PERFORMED EVASIVE MANEUVERS. AT THIS TIME, STRIKE EAGLE 05 NOTIFIED STRIKE EAGLE 04 OF SITUATION AND FURY 06 INTENTIONS OF LAUNCHING GROUND QRF AND C2 FROM ORGUN-E. BOTH AIRCRAFT TURNED RIGHT AND CIRCLED AROUND VILLAGE IMMEDIATELY TO THEIR REAR (PROBABLY SADOZI KALAY 42S WB 0868934803) FOR ABOUT 30 MINUTES BEFORE RETURNING TO ORGUN-E TO PICK UP AERIAL RECON AND C2 PACKAGE. AFTER ORIGINAL PAX AND EQUIPMENT WERE DOWNLOADED AND AERIAL RECON/C2 UPLOADED, AIRCRAFT DEPARTED FOR SUSPECTED POO AND INSERTED GROUND CORDON FORCES. BOTH AIRCRAFT ORBITED AND ASSISTED GROUND FORCES FOR APPROXIMATELY 90 MINUTES WITHOUT INCIDENT. THE AIRCRAFT THEN RETURNED TO ORGUN-E, LOADED ORIGINAL PAX AND EQUIPMENT AND CONTINUED WITH ORIGINAL MISSION. AIRCRAFT COMPLETED MISSION AND RETURNED TO KAF WITHOUT FURTHER INCIDENT. NFI. ANALYST COMMENTS: AIRCRAFT WERE ENGAGED WITH U/I TYPE OF MANPADS (PROBABLE STINGER DUE TO FLIGHT CHARACTERISTICS, THE SMOKE TRAIL GOING STRAIGHT UP, THEN TURING TOWARDS AIRCRAFT AND LACK OF CORK SCREW). THE VALLEY IN WHICH THEY WERE FLYING IS EXTREMELY CHANNELING (3NM WIDE IN THE NARROWEST POINT, 5NM IN ITS WIDEST). THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE ACMS COULD HAVE POSSIBLY USED THE SAMBUSH TTP SEEN IN IRAQ CAN NOT BE DISCOUNTED. AS WITH THE PREVIOUS TWO TASK FORCE STORM MANPAD ENGAGEMENTS, THE AIRCRAFT TARGETED WERE LIGHTLY ARMED TROOP CARRIERS, SEEMINGLY CONFIRMING ASSESSMENTS THAT ACMS WILL ENGAGE AIRCRAFT THEY THINK WILL INFLICT MASS CASUALTIES IOT HELP THEIR IO CAMPAIGN. THE APR-39 IS A DIRECTION FINDING THREAT WARNING INDICATOR. DISC SEPARATION IS DESCRIBED AS THE AMOUNT OF SPACING BETWEEN AIRCRAFT BASED ON MAIN ROTOR DISC (ABOUT 55 FEET). ASE, AIRCRAFT SURVIVABILITY EQUIPMENT; APR-39, CMWS (COMMON MISSILE WARNING SYSTEM) AND ALQ-144 WERE ALL FULLY FUNCTIONAL. THE INFORMATION ABOUT STINGER FLIGHT CHARACTERISTICS WAS PROVIDED BY STORM 2, WHO WAS A STINGER CREW MEMBER WHILE ENLISTED. CONSULTATION WITH CMWS TECHNICIAN TOMORROW MAY CHANGE ASSESSMENT.

[GGTharos]

STORM 2 seems to have been a passenger.

[AlphaOneSix]

Storm 2 looks to me like an intelligence officer who only made his assessment based on the desciption given by the aircrew. I'm pretty sure he was in a nice, air-conditioned office somewhere, and nowhere near the aircraft. Also, missiles don't corkscrew much when the target is only at 300 feet. Basically, I'm not at all convinced that it was a Stinger.

[GGTharos]

Could it have been fireworks?

[KungFuCharlie]

Storm 2 looks to me like an intelligence officer who only made his assessment based on the desciption given by the aircrew. I'm pretty sure he was in a nice, air-conditioned office somewhere, and nowhere near the aircraft. Also, missiles don't corkscrew much when the target is only at 300 feet. Basically, I'm not at all convinced that it was a Stinger.

 

The only real clue to that is the last two sentences in the report...

THE INFORMATION ABOUT STINGER FLIGHT CHARACTERISTICS WAS PROVIDED BY STORM 2, WHO WAS A STINGER CREW MEMBER WHILE ENLISTED. CONSULTATION WITH CMWS TECHNICIAN TOMORROW MAY CHANGE ASSESSMENT.

 

My guess would be one of three things... 1) an intelligence officer as you stated 2) a technical consultant or 3) an officer in the unit who was once an enlisted stinger guy. Number 2 seems a little unlikely since the last sentence states they are going to consult a technician. So I think you're right on it being an intelligence guy.

[GGTharos]

Military Intelligence Reserve Command

[bumfire]

Could it have been fireworks?

 

2 british harriers at 21 thousand feet circling some enemy saw a missile or something fly between them, it detonated above them and left a smoke trail that lasted over 3 minutes.

 

UK Army or RAF said it was RPG :megalol:

 

But, 21 thousand feet, thats surely out of the range for heaters ? plus they got no warning about it until it passed between them, so I think they used a katyusha or some other long range rocket, and shoot it straight up and just got lucky that it went between them, either that or their are uber long range heaters over there ?

 

But a missile or rocket that can get to 21k feet must be a fair size, so I wonder what it was that got shot at them?

 

 

edit:

 

MIRC

 

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, so it isnt some Intelligence dude being lazy and using MIRC to chat to his buddies :D

Edited July 26, 2010 by bumfire

[GGTharos]

We're talking about helicopters flying 300' AGL.

20000' is more than likely well out of range for MANPADS.

It could also have been something like an SA-2 or 3 launched ballistically.

 

2 british harriers at 21 thousand feet circling some enemy saw a missile or something fly between them, it detonated above them and left a smoke trail that lasted over 3 minutes.

 

UK Army or RAF said it was RPG :megalol:

 

But, 21 thousand feet, thats surely out of the range for heaters ? plus they got no warning about it until it passed between them, so I think they used a katyusha or some other long range rocket, and shoot it straight up and just got lucky that it went between them, either that or their are uber long range heaters over there ?

 

But a missile or rocket that can get to 21k feet must be a fair size, so I wonder what it was that got shot at them?

[bumfire]

Yea, I knew you were talking bout helos, I just mentioned a similar story of where something unknown went between the 2 harriers and it gave off alot of smoke.

 

I agree it could of been a Sa2 launched ballistically as it wouldnt give off any warnings except smoke and if the planes hadnt had a MWS that picked up moving objects in your vicinity regardless if it was active or not, which looked like the case here, then they wouldnt of known anything about it til they saw it.

 

Crazy if it was one of them, as A, where did it come from and B, how can they hide a flying telegraph pole from the eyes in the sky, cuz the thing is massive and would of needed transport and setting up, crazy, really is crazy if things like that are being used but, I would still rather be up high and take my chances with the telegraph pole than down low and take my chance against the heaters.

[nscode]

why are these transcripts always in upper case?

[KungFuCharlie]

I would agree with that Alphaonesix, look at the way he was contacted, via MIRC, now if I am correct MIRC is an IRC program, unless MIRC is an acronym in the USAF for something else ?

 

So I presume this dude was sitting in an office and talking to whomever via IRC and was told about it that way.

 

It is in fact the IRC program. Intelligence analysts (and many others actually) rely heavily on mIRC chat on both SIPR and JWICS. It is the fastest way to get information. They have various chat rooms set up for different units, agencies, and tasks. So most likely the pilot or report writer went on mIRC and described the situation to an intelligence weenie.

[KungFuCharlie]

why are these transcripts always in upper case?

 

Standard operating procedure. Makes it easy for the many autonomous software systems to parse and disseminate the information into various databases, reports, etc. You can probably do a Google search and actually find the standards document that outlines the format, language, etc of all the reports. Well, most of the reports anyway.