Why DCS A10C multiplayer wont work !!

[Azazael]

I dont think DCS warthog muliplayer will work very well !!!

My experiences with FC2 flying in an A10a in DCS blackshark multiplayer servers are :

 

RED and BLUE teams are all using the same aircraft types:mad:

so as an A10a pilot he has no idea if the Mig 29 in his RWR is friendly or hostile.

 

An A10 wont last 5 minutes with so many SU 27 / Su33 /Mig 29 / F15 in the air, all a threat to him that he is almost defenceless against.

 

At least the Ka50 pilot can hide in the clutter of buildings.!!

 

Mostly as an A10a pilot in the DCS world, I seldom get to the target area

to dodge the sam sites as even one fighter will waste me with AA11/AA10 etc

 

One help would be to split RED /BLUE teams so that they have, Ka50 /Apache, F15/Su27, Mig 29/F16 FA18/ Su30 etc

 

I understand that the A10 is not designed to operate in a high threat environment but all DCS multiplayer environs are just that.

[RIPTIDE]

Dude... they said that before Ka-50 started flying with the fast movers. No problems online. Most ground pounders do pretty good on well designed online server maps and missions. Sure.... some fall prey to the jocks... but with some teamwork things can work out well. Anyway, this is all moot anyway, as I understand it DCS: A-10C will not be compatible out of the box with FC2.0 etc.

[EtherealN]

RED and BLUE teams are all using the same aircraft types:mad:

so as an A10a pilot he has no idea if the Mig 29 in his RWR is friendly or hostile.

 

Ask the server admins to include realistic scenarios.

Also, do note that compatibility with FC2 is not guaranteed, and possibly best viewed as unlikely. Refer to the FAQ.

 

An A10 wont last 5 minutes with so many SU 27 / Su33 /Mig 29 / F15 in the air, all a threat to him that he is almost defenceless against.

 

Which is why A10 pilots fly with AWACS info and top cover. You know, it's multiplayer, use your friends. ;)

 

At least the Ka50 pilot can hide in the clutter of buildings.!!

 

An A10 can hide in terrain decently as well.

 

Mostly as an A10a pilot in the DCS world, I seldom get to the target area

to dodge the sam sites as even one fighter will waste me with AA11/AA10 etc

 

Which, again, is why real pilots fly into hostile airspace under the cover of fighters. You can do this online as well - that's what "multiplayer" is about. :)

 

I understand that the A10 is not designed to operate in a high threat environment but all DCS multiplayer environs are just that.

 

Actually, it is designed to operate in high threat environments. The amount of battle damage that it is designed to absorb and still remain flying is a testament to that. The point though is that ALL CAS aircraft, rotary or fixed, are sitting ducks against fighters. For this reason, they operate with friendly fighters flying CAP or escort in the area.

[Azazael]

My comments are my personel experiences for a newbie A10 pilot entering the game. And should be used to better construct the DCS warthog product when its released especially in the multiplayer area.

 

Ok can you identify a realistic multiplayer scenario that an A10 has a reasonable chance of surviving in ? or in the absence of friendly top cover should i give up ?

 

Dont have DSC black shark but do KA50 pilots suffer in the same way ?

 

compatibility with FC2 is not guaranteed:

Not an issue as I will buy DCS A10 when its released:)

 

No amount of very low level terrain hiding / flare/chaff saved me from an attack by any fighter so without friendlies, is the game not heavilly loaded against the A10 ?

 

Why not give the A10a a go in a DSC multiplayer senario yourself !

 

Maybe as you say it may only be playable as an A10C pilot with lots of friendly top cover and a scenario written with the A10 in mind.

 

You didnt comment on the RWR problem how do I know which Mig29 is freindly or hostile ? IFF ???

[GGTharos]

I will give you a simple, short answer to what you are saying:

 

An A-10C does indeed need top cover, but on the other hand, if you learn and understand the basics of air to air and radar, you will not be helpless. The A-10C is quite capable of defending itself, the A-10A as well.

[shu77]

There were at least four of us flying A-10's out of Novo on the weekend from the 104th server, Despite stuffing around over Krasnodar and heading directly for the FLOT, and waypoints that are marked on the map relative to there own, the most we saw of the enemy F-15's was the radar spike on the RWR.

 

The was a fellow kicking around in a black shark too and the only aircraft lost seemed to be from my airframes fascination with power-lines. :doh:

 

Sure if the eagle had come looking for us specifically they would have probably found us, though with ingress and egress below Cherubs 5 is seems a little unlikely and they would then have started to present a nice big target for our CAP.

 

I've been more trying to figure how you make FC2 compatible on line when you have highly realistic procedures and key sequences in the C but in the A you can just press 7 D and pickle. I guess it happens now with the Black shark, but the A10C seems to be more likely to be doing combined ops to me.

[EtherealN]

My comments are my personel experiences for a newbie A10 pilot entering the game. And should be used to better construct the DCS warthog product when its released especially in the multiplayer area.

 

Like I said, the majority of your issues might not apply, since there might not be player-driven fighters in your OPFOR with DCS:A-10C.

 

Ok can you identify a realistic multiplayer scenario that an A10 has a reasonable chance of surviving in ? or in the absence of friendly top cover should i give up ?

 

I don't fly the A10A much online, but in very many online servers the "target areas" for fighters and attack aircraft are widely separated. This has two effects: it reduces the chance of encountering a hostile fighter. It also reduces the chance of friendly fighters flying in that area to support you. So if an enemy fighter comes along, you are toast.

 

A realistic scenario would have fighters tasked to your area, so enemy fighters would (hopefully) have to tango with your friends before they can worry about you.

 

In the absense of top cover you should use your AWACS a lot, and if it calls bandits hot within 60 you might want to think about getting out of there.

 

Dont have DSC black shark but do KA50 pilots suffer in the same way ?

 

I've not been shot down (by players) much when flying the Shark online, but again this is mostly because I always try to operate with friendly air cover. (Though usually I'm the one giving the air cover, with my F15.) However, since FC2 does not simulate the doppler return of the rotors it is easy for a chopper to notch and thereby hide from radar, something that would be impossible against a modern fighter IRL.

 

No amount of very low level terrain hiding / flare/chaff saved me from an attack by any fighter so without friendlies, is the game not heavilly loaded against the A10 ?

 

In the sense that in such a situation you will have a hard time surviving unless you get out of there before the fighter gets close enough to fire on you? Yes. Though technically, it is still easier to evade such attack than it is in real life.

 

If you are engaged by radar missiles, ensure that you use proper evasion techniques. Use the LookDown Clutter Notch, get hills and buildings between you and the enemy, etcetera.

 

Why not give the A10a a go in a DSC multiplayer senario yourself !

 

In a DCS multiplayer scenario I'd be more interested in flying the A-10C. :P

That aside, I have flown A-10A in multiplayer, and since I had friends flying fighters and used the AWACS to keep me informed, I did not have much problems at all with hostile fighters.

 

Maybe as you say it may only be playable as an A10C pilot with lots of friendly top cover and a scenario written with the A10 in mind.

 

You don't need lots. You just need a single F15 (though obviously two is desirable) scanning the area and keeping you informed. Also, use the AWACS.

 

You didnt comment on the RWR problem how do I know which Mig29 is freindly or hostile ? IFF ???

 

Ask the AWACS for info on bandits.

[David A Sell]

I flew the hog online for years in LOMAC.. Sometimes you get hit but not as often as you would think, great fun and cooperation with the hi fly boys on my team, Stay low and follow assigned routes, and fly with a wingman and you'll be fine

[kingneptune117]

how will topcover work in dcs a10c multiplayer online?

[104th_Crunch]

how will topcover work in dcs a10c multiplayer online?

 

It won't until you get DCS:Fighter :) I guess one could design a mission that has AI top cover. It's been said many times for FC2 + Blackshark, if you fly lonewolf A2G without escort in a busy MP server, you might not make it very far.

 

As for the same fighter types on both coalitions in a MP mission...

negative - visual ID is more difficult

positive - those that have a preference for a certain aircraft can fly on either coalition to help player balance

Edited August 20, 2010 by Crunch

[Grimes]

Many arguments can be made with regard to online play. Personally if the game is just Ka-50 and the A-10C I have the feeling its gonna be similar to how people played Ka-50 (before FC2) and with FC2. So lets assume things go back to the pre-FC2 era...

 

It'll work, it just wont be all that more fun and different from before. Obviously new triggers could potentially help things out, and its really up the mission builders to use it to their full potential. However with a "pure" DCS:BS experience, I'm not sure I ever saw organized co-op sessions. They were all Join in Progress where the main goal was to grind away at the target area. Suffice to say the game experience is much different if you have 1 life, everyone starts the mission at the same time, and there is actually a plan to execute. I kinda wish a "publicly private" server hosting missions like that existed, all you have to do is join their voice comms, and adhere to the play style. I hate to give this as an example but there are quite a few massive groups within ARMA2 that play this way... SIMHQ Military Mondays, Shack Tactical, and Tactical Gamer all come to mind. .. Why the hell don't we have anything like this? We ought to, but we don't.

 

If FC2 is in the mix, well is it possible to have 10x less teamwork when 0 plan existed in the first place? Mathematically its still 0, so we didn't improve or regress. I do believe that the possibility of a plan to exist is greatly effected by the people playing. However I think competitive spirit is a bigger factor than just wanting to have teamwork. Rightly so when I actually play and if I'm in a fighter I like to shoot down the strikers. I don't care about some absurd "gentlemen's agreement." I shoot you down for one reason, so you complain to your teammates at their failure to provide proper aircover. If they try to cover you next time... OMG A PLAN EXISTS ONLINE!!!

 

only to fail because the plan was so fragile and spontaneous to begin with.

 

 

Ask the server admins to include realistic scenarios.

Admins should take most of the blame, both in how we run a server and the missions we run on it. I can honestly say that the missions on the 3Sqn server were designed to phase in some of the new and cool features of the editor into something familiar from FC1. Even though "Capturing Maykop" in all of its 700 trigger sophistication was designed to pander to the airquake player, it is at its core a King of the Hill gamemode after all. Although the capturing process and most of the mission is somewhat realistic.

 

I'll do better next time. :music_whistling:

 

@Crunch...

Ratios.

If the F-15 is 2x better than everything else and they are all on one team, the other team should have 2x the number of players in fighters. Wish more tried to play like this.

 

Actually, it is designed to operate in high threat environments. For this reason, they operate with friendly fighters flying CAP or escort in the area.

 

This sorta comes back to the idea of having a plan. In reality there are hundreds if not thousands of people looking at the data and communicating with pilots on the best course of action to avoid getting involved in a sticky situation. In FC2 and DCS games, we don't have a single person doing this online. Sure we might have an awacs, but they are far from perfect. We can have limited precision with a trigger system, but its not good enough and the ability to tell altitude is great, but if I can't dynamically tell you which direction they are in... its rather pointless.

 

 

TL: DR

We can't have a realistic working mulitplayer game unless the server, the mission, and the players are all trying to make it exist.

[Poor mans sniper]

Those KA-50s will stand no chance to the Avenger cannon:megalol:

[Peyoteros]

Vikhr will pulverize A-10C in miliseconds. It's all up to the chance of spotting first and skills of the pilot.

[Azazael]

Thanks for the advice guys:thumbup:

 

I love the FC2/DCS flight sim product; the graphics are superb and can’t wait DCS Warthog to be released.

 

I think the designers should take a hard look at the multiplayer scenarios out there, if they want DCS Warthog to realise its full potential.

 

 

“Might not be player-driven fighters in your OPFOR with DCS:A-10C.” is a way to go but I wouldn’t want to exclude players from choosing what they want to fly. How about RWR ignoring friendly radar so I can tell who is hostile and avoid them?

 

Thanks EtherealN:) I will give the AWACS info on bandit’s idea a go on 104th server.

 

“The amount of battle damage that it is designed to absorb and still remain flying is a testament to that” In DSC multiplayer, my experience is that almost every weapon in the game is capable of a one hit kill on an A10a. (This is different to my single player experience)

 

As for the same fighter types on both coalitions in a MP mission...

negative – even friendly forces are a threat to the A10 (is IFF modelled in the game?)

 

Also as I said the RWR sees only the aircraft radar type (not if its RED/Blue)and so even my own top cover will see me as a valid target, and I them. (am I using it incorrectly?)

 

So maybe the real issues are due to server missions being designed with DCS BS in mind and the introduction of FC2 A10a in the mix is a change not accounted for, but this may be the same with the up and coming DCS Warthog

[plumber]

Why DCS A-10C multiplayer will work!!

 

My reasons for why DCS A-10C mutiplayer will work are:

 

1) Just to be flying around with a wing man (your best friend in my case) in such an awesome realistic jet, especially the A-10C model is a complete dream come true! Given we will be able to communicate with each other as well as ground FAC's and such is absolutely amazing! The amount of immersion this sim will give us, will rival anything out there.

 

2) Just to coordinate an attack with someone else is a complicated task especially when you practice using coms over a radio. To communicate using as little words as possible to duologue to one another effectively, is in itself a challenge. There is nothing like accomplishing a mission, (be it a recon only mission) find your way home, land successfully, then taxi to your hanger in one piece, that in itself is rewarding.

 

3) Think about the possibility of a SAR mission. How cool would that be!

Even in the days of "JANE"s ATF with it's crappy graphics and simplistic flight model, it was so immersing and rewarding to land on the carrier after a coordinated strike on a enemy compound. We would debrief and talk for an hour about what we should have done differently or how everything went perfectly as planned.

 

Anyway, these are my reasons why this sim will be successful, because these guys are doing it right and to the highest degree possible. Dream come true for me.

Thanks ED

[Boberro]

It's not product problem. It is your problem :P

 

That situation's been in LO since ages. Su-25, A-10, Ka-50 need cover... it is your business to gather someone who will protect you.

 

I fly Su-25T all time near to enemy existence and it is cool ;]

[Tucano_uy]

Is it possible to set triggers in a mission to activate AI fighter cover IF there is no human players in the role? AI fighters are of course not match to a skilled human in A-A but at least they will delay the enemy fighters and force them to spend ammo, giving the A-G guys a chance to do something. Like running away.

 

The ball is on the Mission Designer's field, me thinks...

Edited August 20, 2010 by Tucano_uy

[104th_Crunch]

The biggest thing that will me missing is Player vs. Player. Sure it is possible for A-10C and the Ka-50, but it won't be the main objective. Co-op is good, but PvP is way better and competitive IMO.

 

I think Grimes describes the situation perfectly. A weekly event with proper planning would be awesome.

[Boberro]

A weekly event with proper planning would be awesome.

 

Yeah... btw I heard in January 104th is going to make big event like it has been many times in 169th... It was really great. I miss them.

 

104th has made its first big event 2 years ago? and it was great.... why don't you create that in LO 2? :)

[Case]

I kinda wish a "publicly private" server hosting missions like that existed, all you have to do is join their voice comms, and adhere to the play style

Why the hell don't we have anything like this? We ought to, but we don't.

 

The 51st has held 2 or 3 GCI weekends (see this old thread). We used GCI software and human GCI controllers to direct fighters and bombers on both coalitions to achieve targets. I participated in a few, both flying and as controller, and it was a lot of fun. I would guess up to 70% of the players on the server would be on the TS server as well, many of which were actively directed by the controller.

 

The major bottlenecks with events like this is that being a GCI controller is a very stressfull job, and it is hard to find people willing and being capable of doing it. Furthermore, there is always the language problem, where people may not speak English at the level needed. We found it hard to man our server with GCI controllers for 3 evenings during one of these weekends. Part of the work could be taken by triggers, but not to the level of a human controller.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Case

[norm]

when I am on line with a ka-50, I have only been shot down by a fighter once, the rest of the time it is usually sams or my on incompetence.

 

also, how will the jatag in the up A-10C be used on-line?

[power5]

 

An A10 can hide in terrain decently as well.

 

 

Not if he is firing his cannon. Damn, I can hear that a few km away in my BS.

[EtherealN]

“Might not be player-driven fighters in your OPFOR with DCS:A-10C.” is a way to go but I wouldn’t want to exclude players from choosing what they want to fly. How about RWR ignoring friendly radar so I can tell who is hostile and avoid them

 

It's not a question about allowing or disallowing or forcing people to fly things they don't want to fly. It's about reality. To get FC2 to be compatible with DCS:A-10C would be a very large piece of development. Personally speaking (I'm not involved in nor informed about that kinda thing, this is just me daydreaming and trying to create a scenario) I suspect that it would require something like another 6-month period of development and testing (delaying the next DCS product after A-10C) to let FC2 players fly with the A-10C.

 

And who should pay for that? The A-10C pilots or the FC2 pilots? Will enough people shell out 20-30 dollars just to fly their F-15 around A10C's instead of A10A's?

 

...and then I am completely ignoring the legal nightmare caused by the fact that Ubisoft owns the LockOn IP in the west. Remember, this isn't only about ED, it is also about Ubisoft's lawyers, and Ubisoft has way many more lawyers than ED does... ;)

 

And finally:

The real RWR does not "ignore" friendly radar. Do you propose that a study simulator should invent arcade features like that and still pretend to be what it's whole brand was created for? Simply not going to happen. No way.

 

With DCS you get as close to real as a PC allows, including both the good and the bad. That's the point of "study simulators" as opposed to HAWX or Ace Combat. (Obviously, add developmental time constraints, restrictions on classified systems and so on.)

 

Not if he is firing his cannon. Damn, I can hear that a few km away in my BS.

 

Someone that is firing his GAU-8 while trying to hide from the enemy is an idiot and deserves to take an ET in the face, sole exception being emergency self-defense shots.

 

Well actually, he should just eject right away. No point wasting an ET on him. :P

Edited August 22, 2010 by EtherealN

[power5]

Someone that is firing his GAU-8 while trying to hide from the enemy is an idiot and deserves to take an ET in the face, sole exception being emergency self-defense shots.

 

Well actually, he should just eject right away. No point wasting an ET on him. :P

 

I was kidding. :) Forgot the smiley. Its not just about hiding though, the cannon draws attention and the pilot has no idea a jet is around.

 

I see no point in working with FC2. I guess its nice to have something besides Player controlled Ka-50 right now though. The only time I even see a jet besides an A10 or Su25 is when I am in F2 camera mode. I am not sure why ED did not model a few planes instead of using LO and worrying about Ubi. They have an game engine, the plane modeling is relatively easy and could probably be knocked out in a month for each plane. No idea what goes into a FM though or how that affects the plane model.

[EtherealN]

ED went through the trouble of FC2 for two reasons:

 

1) Customers requested it, since FC1 was starting to show some real age. (Compatibility with DCS:BS was a bonus.)

2) There was a reasonable chance of it being profitable (or at least break-even), due to the age of FC1.