The F-15 and MP gameplay

[Steel Jaw]

I was on the 104 server recently and some joker came on in Eagle and tossed out a bunch of slammer mad dogs in rapid fire. That's just plain STUPID.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Mower

[GGTharos]

Where do you have proof that SPJ's jam TWS, or any radar in search mode?

 

But not by this means there is not enough proof about jammer to give the F-15 that big advantage. It realy should stay the same 25km so F-15 and Su-27 pilots had to think more rathere then they way its now.

[GGTharos]

It's a 'hold over tactic' from the 'maddogged missiles will kill stuff' era of Fc1.12. It is something that was fixed, and yes, you're right, it is a silly thing to do, throwing your missiles away like this.

 

I was on the 104 server recently and some joker came on in Eagle and tossed out a bunch of slammer mad dogs in rapid fire. That's just plain STUPID.

[Teknetinium]

Where do you have proof that SPJ's jam TWS, or any radar in search mode?

 

 

Thas what Im saying there is no documentation that would give this opportunity to F-15, Where is your prove? Pure whining inputs, now you can use your TWS always GG, very realistic. GG you think you are pushing it to more realistic environment, but u dont u push for F-15s superiority Obviously, Unfortunately I cant say I do the same F-15 was already better airframe in 1.12 . And it would be more interesting tactically having the burnthru the same at 25km or brake TWS locks more often by decresing cooling time. LOL 15 SEC.

 

THIS whent to far!!!!!!!!!!!! You will make me bring my dirty tactics ;) and youll start whine again GG, pilotasso :)

 

I need MIG-21 BISON, better chance to fight F-15 lol.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

Actually yes, there is. So far no SPJ literature has indicated that an SPJ will not do anything other than respond to a threat - ie. an STT signal.

The reason for this is fairly simple: An SPJ has very limited resources, and it will use them to attempt to jam a threat against itself, not random radars in search mode.

 

Maybe you should try looking for some information yourself instead of trying to play the 'I don't know, so you can't know' card. SPJs should not be affecting any radar in TWS mode. It is known that FC1/2 ECM representation is not realistic, and it never will be.

 

Thas what Im saying there is no documentation that would give this opportunity to F-15, Where is your prove? Pure whining inputs, now you can use your TWS always GG very realistic.

[Steel Jaw]

Lemme clarify on the 104 server maddog rapid fire: it was a transient and not a regular there cause the Su27 dude (who's a reg on the server) bitched about that. Didnt wanna slam the 104 guys.

[Teknetinium]

Actually yes, there is. So far no SPJ literature has indicated that an SPJ will not do anything other than respond to a threat - ie. an STT signal.

The reason for this is fairly simple: An SPJ has very limited resources, and it will use them to attempt to jam a threat against itself, not random radars in search mode.

 

Maybe you should try looking for some information yourself instead of trying to play the 'I don't know, so you can't know' card. SPJs should not be affecting any radar in TWS mode. It is known that FC1/2 ECM representation is not realistic, and it never will be.

 

 

WHAT DID EFFECT THE BURNTHRU RANGES? GG dont be smart at me. Maby whining not be able to take TWS shots?

 

No wonder half of the community quit, when only F-15 voices are heard.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

Don't you get it? There is no 'burn through' against a real jammer (ok, depends on technique - sidelobe jamming can be burnt through AFAIK ;) ) It'll be doing things to your radar down to gun range if your radar does not have the ECCM to deal with it.

But it will also not jam TWS because that is a search mode.

 

FC1/2 ECM is a gross simplification. Deal with it already.

 

WHAT DID EFFECT THE BURNTHRU RANGES?

[MAD MAX]

Oh nice move, i like the way my name has been dragged into this (not) :huh:

 

You do realise that i'm not the only one who flies above 40000 and shoots in TWS, why use me as an example? :doh:

 

I can name a few of your russian friends who fly the 15 much more aggressively at high alt, but i won't.

 

Infact, when i've flown recently (which hasn't been much) i've been in a 29S lurking low, ECM on and seeking out prey with 77's and ET's :)

 

Other pilots dont kry when they was killed.

But when you and Pilotasso fly on 12km and lunch rockets from 50 km....and your target on ECM yhen off...and AIM-120 fly to the space you cry and named then chiter!

Because you have no other tactics. And what we have now with ECM 15 sec its yours crys to ED. It very bad.

[Steel Jaw]

There is no 'burn through' against a real jammer

 

Of course there is. It's not modelled correctly in FC2 as we know though.

[Teknetinium]

I will dill whit this as you did whit Et whining and Blinking. That putted the Su-27 in you opinion in to to big advantage, I hope you see my side of coin now.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Teknetinium

[Steel Jaw]

The Su27 aint gawds gift to BVR BTW.

[GGTharos]

You can burn-through against side-lobe jamming.

There is no burn-through against a main-lobe jammer, and the reason for this is actually fairly simple: The reflection off your aircraft is a tiny, tiiiiiny fraction of the energy beamed out by the offending radar.

The jammer only need to over-come THAT, and the reflected energy is *tiny* until you get insanely close.

You have to rely on ECCM to overcome this situation - I personally do not consider this 'burn through', since burn-through has been traditionally shown to be a power v. power situation. But, I could be using the terminology wrong.

 

Of course there is. It's not modelled correctly in FC2 as we know though.

[GGTharos]

Actually no, I do not. As far the ET goes, plenty enough sources were gathered to show that it would not, and could not work as modeled in FC1 with regard to mad-dogging. This was further corroborated by pilots, at least AFAIK. I only did a small part of that research, ED found their own sources to check on this. And BTW, it was not 'done to the ET', it was done to ALL heat seeking missiles, and even the ARHs.

 

I will dill whit this as you did whit Et whining and Blinking. That putted the Su-27 in you opinion in to to big advantage, I hope you see my side of coin now.

[Mustang]

Other pilots dont kry when they was killed.

But when you and Pilotasso fly on 12km and lunch rockets from 50 km....and your target on ECM yhen off...and AIM-120 fly to the space you cry and named then chiter!

Because you have no other tactics. And what we have now with ECM 15 sec its yours crys to ED. It very bad.

 

What are you taking about? :huh:

[GGTharos]

Actually it is real F-15C tactics are to come off a high (40000-50000 feet) perch, supersonic, and launch at long range. I know of at least one ex-soviet air force that practices a similar tactic with MiG-29A's, though against F-16's.

 

Please keep in mind that there is a reason why there is a contest to make the highest flying, fastest flying fighter ... and it is not to get to guns range :)

 

Other pilots dont kry when they was killed.

But when you and Pilotasso fly on 12km and lunch rockets from 50 km....and your target on ECM yhen off...and AIM-120 fly to the space you cry and named then chiter!

Because you have no other tactics. And what we have now with ECM 15 sec its yours crys to ED. It very bad.

[Teknetinium]

Actually no, I do not. As far the ET goes, plenty enough sources were gathered to show that it would not, and could not work as modeled in FC1 with regard to mad-dogging. This was further corroborated by pilots, at least AFAIK. I only did a small part of that research, ED found their own sources to check on this. And BTW, it was not 'done to the ET', it was done to ALL heat seeking missiles, and even the ARHs.

 

Where are the sources of jammers? Its simplified solution to makes it esier to use TWS that gives the F-15 unfair advantage. The only thing I see is that DCS tried to solve the blinking problem. One step to mutch DCS!!! This feels more unrealistic then blinking.

Edited August 23, 2010 by Teknetinium

[GGTharos]

It is realistic advantage. If you want sources on how jammers generally work, I can try hooking you up with materials for you to begin some study on it. It took me a long time to find sources and gain knowledge AND then understand it, so don't expect over-night answers - as in, since you don't want to believe me, I can only point you in some general direction and then you must do your own research.

 

One of the best things you can do for a quick answer though, is to get a hold of a pilot from one side or the other and ask how a jammer works in general (they will obviously not tell you details, assuming they want to talk about it at all).

 

I was able to find pilots to ask for this, so you can too, probably without much trouble. Often a pilot will really help to explain things quickly. I also ran into an ECM technician or two, but I no longer have contact with them.

 

I think Total might still be hanging around this board and might be able able to comment on the issue as well.

 

Where are the sources of jammers? its simplified solution to makes it esier to use TWS that gives the F-15 unfair advantage.

[Teknetinium]

It is realistic advantage. If you want sources on how jammers generally work, I can try hooking you up with materials for you to begin some study on it. It took me a long time to find sources and gain knowledge AND then understand it, so don't expect over-night answers - as in, since you don't want to believe me, I can only point you in some general direction and then you must do your own research.

 

One of the best things you can do for a quick answer though, is to get a hold of a pilot from one side or the other and ask how a jammer works in general (they will obviously not tell you details, assuming they want to talk about it at all).

 

I was able to find pilots to ask for this, so you can too, probably without much trouble. Often a pilot will really help to explain things quickly. I also ran into an ECM technician or two, but I no longer have contact with them.

 

I think Total might still be hanging around this board and might be able able to comment on the issue as well.

 

 

:)

[RIPTIDE]

Actually yes, there is. So far no SPJ literature has indicated that an SPJ will not do anything other than respond to a threat - ie. an STT signal.

The reason for this is fairly simple: An SPJ has very limited resources, and it will use them to attempt to jam a threat against itself, not random radars in search mode.

 

Maybe you should try looking for some information yourself instead of trying to play the 'I don't know, so you can't know' card. SPJs should not be affecting any radar in TWS mode. It is known that FC1/2 ECM representation is not realistic, and it never will be.

Interesting that the jammer fielded should only on STT type threats. I suppose that would be difficult to code into FC anyways. But does this effect the effectiveness of HOJ shots? I know now in FC2.0 we have alerts for HOJ, but IRL against a directional jamming target how does that work?

 

Something I only recently considered though was the jammers effectiveness against the likes of 77/120 seeker head. I would have thought in real life that the active headed missiles would be way more susceptible to jamming compared to FC2.0, given the very small arrays which they carry and relatively limited power, both electrical and processing. What's your view on that? Or has there been any info or general impressions found out by ED?

Edited August 23, 2010 by RIPTIDE

[GGTharos]

Interesting that the jammer fielded should only on STT type threats. I suppose that would be difficult to code into FC anyways.

 

Yes, this was the specific problem - it was difficult to change the FC code, and as you know, the team was already going into over-time with FC2.

 

Something I only recently considered though was the jammers effectiveness against the likes of 77/120 seeker head. I would have thought in real life that the active headed missiles would be way more susceptible to jamming compared to FC2.0, given the very small arrays which they carry and relatively limited power, both electrical and processing. What's your view on that? Or has there been any info or general impressions found out by ED?

 

Reality: We do not really know.

 

Educated speculation: ARH are replacing SARH, which leads me to believe ARH will have overall better resistance to ECM, both because they are in general newer, and because they have an on-board radar which can attempt to play its own tricks on the jammer or otherwise apply ECCM. The amount of power is probably not as relevant as the ECCM technique used, but this is pure guess on my part.

 

Note that SARH are not making a come back, nor are anti-air-ARMs being fielded. More development is going into ARH missiles and IIRH missiles, and the most interesting development, IMHO is the 2-way datalink for AIM-120D ... which while serving to increase pilot's SA (you know, 'this is what your missile is doing), it -could- also server as a 2-way communication with the aircraft's radar, to help the missile with ECCM. Maybe.

[RIPTIDE]

Thanks.

 

And about the HOJ shots on one of these jammers? Can you IRL fire a unsupported HOJ on a jamming pod that only reacts to a Lock? I can understand HOJ working on a continously locked Jammer, but not as a fire and forget way. In this case the missile would need the launching craft to support it somehow until pitbull via datalink. ? Ignore TWS for this.

Edited August 23, 2010 by RIPTIDE

[GGTharos]

I can tell you for a fact that the F-16 FCR had to get an upgrade to stop preventing you from launching a 120 at a jamming target/invalid data target if it became 'invalid' right after you slammed down on the pickle, so I would personally expect that HoJ shots are a very special case of something we know nothing about.

 

Keep in mind that the MISSILE might have some HoJ capability, since it probabyl WILL have to deal with a jammer, but whether you can begin the engagement this way ... honestly I don't know. It may involve accomplishing a ranging procedure using AoJ data only before hand, or it might be completely useless.

 

HoJ might also really be just tricking the jammer into sending out pretty much the signal that should be reflecting off the target, instead of letting it break radar lock.

 

Basically, HoJ is one huge ? :)

 

I can tell you there are DRFM jammers out there that will outright prevent STT on the aircraft fielding it. They are reasonably new things, and at least AFAIK, if you aren't sporting an AESA, you might be in for a real ride. No idea how this affects missiles, but right now, you don't see too many people trying to stick IIR seekers on MRMs, either, so I'd guess there's some ECCM work going on.

 

Unsupported shots: You can. You can cheap-shot, or you can maddog. Keep in mind that jamming one radar does not mean you are jamming another ... so the ARH and the aircraft radar are two separate threats for the jammer; if it can jam two threats, it will jam both, if it can jam one threat, something's going to give (most jammers can handle more, just using this as an example to clarify operation).

 

In general, your missile will always need some support if it is SARH, and it will need support if it is ARH for long shots, or your Pk goes WAY down (The UK found this out the hard way. They immediately then bought datalink upgrade for AMRAAM on their radars).

 

I hope some of this gave you at least a partial answer to your questions.

 

Thanks.

 

And about the HOJ shots on one of these jammers? Can you IRL fire a unsupported HOJ on a jamming pod that only reacts to a Lock? I can understand HOJ working on a continously locked Jammer, but not as a fire and forget way. In this case the missile would need the launching craft to support it somehow until pitbull via datalink. ? Ignore TWS for this.

[nscode]

...

 

I can tell you there are DRFM jammers out there that will outright prevent STT on the aircraft fielding it. They are reasonably new things, and at least AFAIK, if you aren't sporting an AESA, you might be in for a real ride.

 

...

 

And if you are (AESA), how would that help?

[Pilotasso]

I will dill whit this as you did whit Et whining and Blinking. That putted the Su-27 in you opinion in to to big advantage, I hope you see my side of coin now.

 

 

ufff

No comparison possible whatsoever. Supported shots cannot be compared with cheap exploits.