3-9line against AIM-120C?

[foxwxl]

We know 3-9line can simply beat most radar-guided missile in FC1.

 

I've tried to use this tactics against ARH missiles in FC2, but it doesn't work. I 've placed my flight path vertical to the missile flight path and rapidly deploying chaffs, then 120C still manage to follow and make a punch.....

 

So is the 3-9line tactics in FC2 dis-useful to the ARHs anymore? Or just I missed something?

 

 

 

PS. How big is the scanning cone of the AIM120C? I heard it is much smaller than that in FC1,but I still met some 20-35 degrees sudden capture and turn at 8-9KM.......

 

[Frostie]

I heard it is much smaller than that in FC1,but I still met some 20-35 degrees sudden capture and turn at 8-9KM.......

Its not much smaller, just smaller than 1.12. The ET is much smaller.:thumbup:

The 120 and R-77 were somewhere over +-80 deg in 1.12 now its down to around +-60deg/+-50deg.

[foxwxl]

Its not much smaller, just smaller than 1.12. The ET is much smaller.:thumbup:

 

yeah,but pretty strange, I've tested 120C with visual launch mode, the scan cone is only +/-6° just match the visual mode 12° circle , I've once considered the 120C's scan cone just as +/-6 degreed........

 

 

And how about the 3-9line? I'm pretty confused on that wouldn't work......

[Frostie]

yeah,but pretty strange, I've tested 120C with visual launch mode, the scan cone is only +/-6° just match the visual mode 12° circle , I've once considered the 120C's scan cone just as +/-6 degreed........

 

I believe the 120's scan cone is 11deg, thats not gospel. But what it does is move the elevation over the +/-50 Deg gimbal limits of the seeker.

So for example it could scan 11 degrees a second of that 100 degrees gimbal limit. These are not actual figures but im sure they're pretty close.

[jacobs]

The beamming still works... perhaps the enemy lounched inside NEZ.

 

I'm new to FC2 and still learning the Flanker tactics, but you should keep in BVR as long as possible. Don't get too close, as there might be a AIM-120 homing up your ###

[Frostie]

 

And how about the 3-9line? I'm pretty confused on that wouldn't work......

Not sure but its probably a random thing, beaming the missile to notch its radar should work but its not going to happen all the time like a trick, just make sure you get good parameters to pull a nice orthagonal roll if the missile doesn't get trashed.

[foxwxl]

I'm testing beaming the ARHs launched in 20KM, but mostly the beaming plus the chaff won't make any good, 120C can maintain a stable lock.....

 

Any I think that does not matter whether it is launched in NEZ or not ,for we are not using the energy but the notch to beat the 120C...

 

I'm tried to make my flight path vertical to the missile OR puting the missile at my 3/9 clock both of them don't work........

[GGTharos]

Some basic info ... most radar missiles in FC have an instant field of view (ie the seeker's FOV, NOT the gimbals) of 6 degrees.

The gimbals can vary, but like Frostie said, they are between 50 and 60 degrees.

 

In FC2, a maddoged missile will not initiate a search within its gimbals, but it will look for a target within the visual launch circle, i.e. if you launch it without lock, it will 'stare ahead'. Not necessarily the MOST realistic, but way more realistic than in FC1 when it would scan the entirety of its gimbals.

 

In FC2, if an ARH loses lock, it will commence scanning the entire gimbal for a target. It cannot scan all this space instantaneously, so it uses a conical scan starting with the position the seeker was centered on (of if it loses the datalink, from straight ahead) and scan the gimbal space in an opening spiral pattern. It will lock onto the first target it sees.

 

The 3-9 is effective against AIM-120C, but it is very, very good at rejecting chaff as you noticed. You therefore must try to notch it with very accurate 3-9 positioning, with the 120C above your own altitude. Another option is to dive exactly straight down (not up, if you do that you may fly above the AMRAAM and the notch no longer counts).

At the same time, drop chaff because if you notch even for a moment, the AMRAAM might lock onto it instead and fly behind you, making it impossible for it to find you again (just plain geometry, you will be outside of its gimbals).

 

An additional technique for any missile is to speed up to at least half the missile's speed (you must start this EARLY, as in before the missile is launched) and put it on the 3-9. If the distance between you and shooter is enough for the missile to slow down some such that its speed is a little less than twice yours, and you can keep it on the 3-9 line fairly accurately, you can out-gimbal the missile. It will fly pure pursuit at you, at which point you need to do some more maneuvering to defeat it (if you can always keep it on 3-9 and keep speed it will end up flying behind your plane harmlessly, but this is not easy), and it isn't easy but you now have a much better chance of survival. Also, what Frostie said.

 

And keep in mind that your notch has to be VERY accurate and you need to have a good chunk of altitude between you and the missile, with the missile being above you. I've notched it, you can too. :) And yes, it isn't supposed to be easy. 20Km at a respectable altitude (5km or higher) will give it plenty of energy to cause you real trouble.

[Succellus]

Awesome GGtharos, thank you.

[mig29]

I haven't played against any human pilot. I play against the AI at "excellent" skill level. So the following information may not be much useful.

 

So, when an AIM-120 is fired at me, say from 20KM away, I keep my head cool and don't worry about the missile too much. Most of the time I dive and get very close to the earth. Then I look at the RWR and when the missile is 1 - 2 KMs away, i pull my stick up (gently). This has always worked for me. :pilotfly:

[foxwxl]

Some basic info ... most radar missiles in FC have an instant field of view (ie the seeker's FOV, NOT the gimbals) of 6 degrees.

The gimbals can vary, but like Frostie said, they are between 50 and 60 degrees.

 

In FC2, a maddoged missile will not initiate a search within its gimbals, but it will look for a target within the visual launch circle, i.e. if you launch it without lock, it will 'stare ahead'. Not necessarily the MOST realistic, but way more realistic than in FC1 when it would scan the entirety of its gimbals.

 

In FC2, if an ARH loses lock, it will commence scanning the entire gimbal for a target. It cannot scan all this space instantaneously, so it uses a conical scan starting with the position the seeker was centered on (of if it loses the datalink, from straight ahead) and scan the gimbal space in an opening spiral pattern. It will lock onto the first target it sees.

 

The 3-9 is effective against AIM-120C, but it is very, very good at rejecting chaff as you noticed. You therefore must try to notch it with very accurate 3-9 positioning, with the 120C above your own altitude. Another option is to dive exactly straight down (not up, if you do that you may fly above the AMRAAM and the notch no longer counts).

At the same time, drop chaff because if you notch even for a moment, the AMRAAM might lock onto it instead and fly behind you, making it impossible for it to find you again (just plain geometry, you will be outside of its gimbals).

 

An additional technique for any missile is to speed up to at least half the missile's speed (you must start this EARLY, as in before the missile is launched) and put it on the 3-9. If the distance between you and shooter is enough for the missile to slow down some such that its speed is a little less than twice yours, and you can keep it on the 3-9 line fairly accurately, you can out-gimbal the missile. It will fly pure pursuit at you, at which point you need to do some more maneuvering to defeat it (if you can always keep it on 3-9 and keep speed it will end up flying behind your plane harmlessly, but this is not easy), and it isn't easy but you now have a much better chance of survival. Also, what Frostie said.

 

And keep in mind that your notch has to be VERY accurate and you need to have a good chunk of altitude between you and the missile, with the missile being above you. I've notched it, you can too. :) And yes, it isn't supposed to be easy. 20Km at a respectable altitude (5km or higher) will give it plenty of energy to cause you real trouble.

 

Very useful imformation,GG, thanks

 

I'd like to ask to against the ARHs, the 3-9 should be :

 

1.my own flight path vertical to the missile

2.puting the missile at my 3/9 clock

 

which one of it ? My own opinion is (1)

[GGTharos]

No, it is 2. This is exactly what 3-9 means. The angle from you to the missile must be 90 deg off your nose as accurately as possible (I seem to consistently hit 90.4 when notching, personally).

[foxwxl]

I see........GG, you have any good ideas to accurately getting into the 90 deg when on a combat situation especially when U are close to the enemy ?

[GGTharos]

Practice. If you are close and you need to notch, you will make the most mistakes. Unfortunately this is simply a fact of life. With a lot of practice, you will panic less, and you will be more accurate, but if your time to evade is small, then you are the most likely to not do it well enough. The closer you get, the less chances you have.

[foxwxl]

THX,my friend

[RIPTIDE]

I haven't played against any human pilot. I play against the AI at "excellent" skill level. So the following information may not be much useful.

 

So, when an AIM-120 is fired at me, say from 20KM away, I keep my head cool and don't worry about the missile too much. Most of the time I dive and get very close to the earth. Then I look at the RWR and when the missile is 1 - 2 KMs away, i pull my stick up (gently). This has always worked for me. :pilotfly:

Heres the thing.... IN AI world, generally the opposing craft will fire one missile at you at farly optomistic ranges and will follow that up, when it can only when the 1st one is trashed. Typically against hoomans, you will get 2 (or more) missiles spaced apart. And while you may ditch the 1st one, it will be very hard to ditch the one that's coming 10 seconds later.

 

I'll also add that I'm anxiously awaiting someone to come in here and say that they can barrel roll them all. :D :D

Edited August 26, 2010 by RIPTIDE

[combatace]

No, I won't state it this time.I'm in a very bad state of life and I hardly have energy to argue on anything.

[RIPTIDE]

No, I won't state it this time.I'm in a very bad state of life and I hardly have energy to argue on anything.

Go on... just say it. I know you want to. :thumbup:

[muamshai]

Go on... just say it. I know you want to. :thumbup:

 

You sound quite passamastic. Of course, you can ditch them all when you pull a nice barrel roll maneuver. Many pilots in hollywood movies have done it in past.

[foxwxl]

I'm made some test on 3-9line against AIM-120C , like GG said above, it can be achieved , but very difficult. In my opinion , too much more difficult compared with FC1.

 

To achieve a 3-9line against 120C, there are three main conditions need to met:

1. Put the missile precisely on the 90 deg, this should be very accurate, the allowable bearing error is likely less than +/-4 deg (86~94 deg). put the missile on any other angle(like 80deg or 96deg) , the AIM120C almost NEVER eat the chaff(more than 99%:cry:).

 

2.You should be lower than the missile at least 400M. This should be achieved as earlier as you can , because at last part of the missile flight, the missile altitude will be the same as you. If you do not have this altitude difference, mostly you will get hit .

 

3.You should deploy chaff when you reach the 90deg heading. Basically more than once per second is recommended.

_________________________

 

For this three conditions, I have to say doing 3-9line maneuver is NOT very effective in FC2. First you have to calculate the 3-9 line heading carefully, then you have to reach the heading precisely in the combat, this not going to be easy. In LR BVR, turn 180 are much easily than making 3-9line, both of them will make you lose the attack position. In SR BVR, most planes will stay at very low altitude, which mean you won't have the altitude difference, then you can NOT break the missile lock...

 

I'm pretty sad about the result and I think most Flanker pilot will be the same.....

Edited September 1, 2010 by foxwxl

[GGTharos]

In my opinion , too much more difficult compared with FC1.

 

But adequate in comparison to reality.

 

1. Put the missile precisely on the 90 deg, this should be very accurate, the allowable bearing error is likely less than +/-4 deg (86~94 deg). put the missile on any other angle(like 80deg or 96deg) , the AIM120C almost NEVER eat the chaff(more than 99%:cry:).

 

This is in fact quite correct if you do the math regarding closure, and is backed up by actual research into RL effects off chaff as well ;).

Basically in this small range of angles, the missiles becomes incapable of distinguishing chaff from aircraft when using the doppler effect.

 

There exist more complex interactions in RL, which are not modeled in FC2 but this gives you the basic behavior as it should be.

 

3.You should deploy chaff when you reach the 90deg heading. Basically more than once per second is recommended.

 

You shouldn't need that much. It's enough to do do it often enough to make the missile lock onto the next bundle of chaff when the first one dissapears, if at all necessary.

 

For this three conditions, I have to say doing 3-9line maneuver is NOT very effective in FC2.

 

Oh, yes it is. You just have to hit the right parameters and it becomes 100% insta-dodge.

 

First you have to calculate the 3-9 line heading carefully,

 

You don't have to calculate anything. Your RWR will give you all the cues you need.

 

then you have to reach the heading precisely in the combat, this not going to be easy.

 

It isn't really hard, either, especially when you're prepared! :)

Practice practice practice!

 

In LR BVR, turn 180 are much easily than making 3-9line, both of them will make you lose the attack position. In SR BVR, most planes will stay at very low attitude, which mean you won't have the attitude difference, then you can NOT break the missile lock...

 

Right, so don't get that close, or arrive with a better position, or drag him for your wingman.

 

I'm pretty sad about the result and I think most Flanker pilot will be the same.....

 

I don't know, some pretty experienced flanker pilots out there seem to be saying they don't have a huge problem with all this. Yes, they have to fight harder than the F-15 pilot usually, but why expect something else?

[foxwxl]

I've tried the RWR, but this can't stay very accurate heading for the 90deg . I often get 1 or 2 deg out of the allowable error heading, then being chased by the 120C....

 

I think in the LR, you don't need the 3-9line, run away is easier and better. In SR, when you need the 3-9line, you often did not have the needed conditions....

 

If we simply on solo, what else can we do?[i know calling a wingman can make life easier, but just in case]

[GGTharos]

I've tried the RWR, but this can't stay very accurate heading for the 90deg . I often get 1 or 2 deg out of the allowable error heading, then being chased by the 120C....

 

In this case, try using a visual reference - on the ground to begin with. Look at the ground in the direction of your opponent. Put this ground on you 3/9, and from there adjust - repeatedly - back and forth across the notch line slowly, dropping chaff. Even if you do not exactly notch for the entire time, you will 'cross the notch' for a brief time and if you do it carefully, the missile might bite off on chaff instead.

If you are flying fast, you may opt to out-gimbal the seeker instead (will not work if you're just past the missile's burn-out range). The faster you go, the harder it is to notch - note that this doesn't mean you should get really slow, that too is a bad idea.

 

Low altitude helps in some cases - radar missiles in FC2 have an increased miss distance when targeting a low-altitude target.

 

I think in the LR, you don't need the 3-9line, run away is easier and better. In SR, when you need the 3-9line, you often did not have the needed conditions....

 

Sure you do. If you do a 180, you are not being agressive enough. Besides, at longer ranges you can keep bandit on gimbals and try to out-gimbal the 120 in the last few moments, or kill its speed by adding a vertical S to your flight path - not a huge amount, maybe 4g for 20 deg up, then 4g to -20 deg, and then repeat. Doing this will force the missile to onstantly turn up, down, up, down, draining its speed.

Keeping the bandit on gimbal means you will cause it to fly longer, thus giving you more time to defeat it - just watch out for bandit tricking you by going in the opposite direction, thus forcing you to turn into the missile in order for you to keep him on the gimbal ;)

 

If we simply on solo, what else can we do?[i know calling a wingman can make life easier, but just in case]

 

You are facing an opponent with a superior missile in a solo situation: Do not let him launch the missile. Hide from his radar, attack undetected if possible, have some chaff out pre-emptively so that if he maddogs the missile it might go for the chaff instead.

Invest in wingman. ;)

[foxwxl]

thx,GG

[power5]

Where can I read up on the missile evading tactics? I have not played a jet sim in ages and have no idea how to combat against missiles anymore especially if the barrel roll does not work anymore. GG you seem extensively versed in the tactics. Got any good sites I can visit?