How real? Security of aircraft/capability data. Something to think about.

[V1Rotate]

If I've got this correctly, DCS A10 Warthog is made possible because the US military wanted a high realism sim for (presumably) training of one sort or another of its pilots.

 

If this is the case then again presumably huge amounts of performance data, weapons capabilities, avionics systems, US tactics etc have been made available to ED/DCS. Is all such data freely available? I understand that the A10 has been around since the '70's and that a lot of info has been declassified since. As a percentage of what we see in the sim vs real life, how realistic is the DCS A10C? I suspect we may never know how much is "omitted" and so there is little point in asking but I can still wonder.

 

Now I realise things have moved on from the cold war and the world political map is very different today, which would explain why Russian developers are now able to access sensitive data which previously would have been out of the question. It just raises a few queries for me: Are the developers under some strict SC (security clearance) rules or is this info "freely" available? How much of what we see in the sim is how it is in real life? Given that the A10C is very much in active service in Afghanistan, does any of what we see in the sim in any way jeopardise effectiveness/lives of people out there?

 

I'm very grateful for the sim and for all EDs hard work, its fantastic but I just wondered how we as mere mortals are able to gain access to such a highly detailed simulation. It also makes me query the feasibility/suitability of future DCS modules/sims and what we're likely to see in the future for the same reasons.

 

 

Apologies if this has been discussed before, perhaps I have too much time on my hands currently due to unemployment!

[T.Goat]

IIRC, the DCS A-10C modeled is a certain block number, which has already been updated again by the air force. That said, I really doubt there's much left classified about the A-10 airframe. There's probably some kind of IR missile strobelight jammer that we don't have, maybe some other little gizmos.

[Boberro]

I highly think that producer, example Kamov or Republic or whatever Warthog producer is, give all needed data to ED for programmers stricly use. They keep it in big panzer wardrobe like top secret docs during the Cold War :D

About A-10 I've seen somewhere Wags post that claims A-10's been modelled in about 95% of real one.

 

Not all is realistic - simply can't be done. I doubt you model psycho effect, detailed damage model of every truck, various explosion particles and so many many other things which in real life have impact on combat.

 

Overall what we have now is quite nice, good sign is that in the future will be better and better. Year after year ;]

Edited October 7, 2010 by Boberro

[Mad Dog 7.62]

As I understand it, ED had the full permission of the US Air Force to model the A-10C up to a certain avionics suite number. I am sure they have been told what they can and can't model, and that may be the reason that we didn't get certain things like the latest radios in the sim.

[GGTharos]

If I've got this correctly, DCS A10 Warthog is made possible because the US military wanted a high realism sim for (presumably) training of one sort or another of its pilots.

 

They wanted to train for the transition from the old style cockpit to the new one. They weren't interested in the flight model or 3d cockpit as far as I know - it was the HOTAS and new functionality with the MFCDs and UFC, but I don't know the full deal.

 

If this is the case then again presumably huge amounts of performance data, weapons capabilities, avionics systems, US tactics etc have been made available to ED/DCS.

 

You won't find their book of tactics anywhere, nor does ED have it. Performance data is available in a -1 which you can get your hands on. The avionics systems operate as the real deal, but none of the operation that ED modeled is classified. I'm aware of several classified features you won't be seeing, from gunsight to your datalink and I can only guess at some others, including the CMS and RWR/MLWS.

 

Is all such data freely available? I understand that the A10 has been around since the '70's and that a lot of info has been declassified since. As a percentage of what we see in the sim vs real life, how realistic is the DCS A10C? I suspect we may never know how much is "omitted" and so there is little point in asking but I can still wonder.

 

If you don't consider electronic warfare, I'd say it is pretty accurate to the particular upgrade level they are modeling it to.

 

Now I realise things have moved on from the cold war and the world political map is very different today, which would explain why Russian developers are now able to access sensitive data which previously would have been out of the question. It just raises a few queries for me: Are the developers under some strict SC (security clearance) rules or is this info "freely" available? How much of what we see in the sim is how it is in real life? Given that the A10C is very much in active service in Afghanistan, does any of what we see in the sim in any way jeopardise effectiveness/lives of people out there?

 

Nothing that they have modeled is classified, but it also isn't stuff that you'll easily get your hands on, either. You're not going to access -34's of AFTTPs for the A-10 for example.

[ZaltysZ]

No one cares when info like cockpit buttons and their use is declassified. However, info about implementation of their function might be classified.

 

For example, if targeting pod was modeled very accurately (i.e. image was really processed, not just shown to us), then such model would not be released to public, because it could be used in "research" how to defeat that sensor in real life.

[Blaze1]

As has already been mentioned, there is little on the A-10C that is classified, even the RWR isn't fully classified. As a clean aircraft I would guess that 99% of it is unclassified. The missile warning systems detection capabilities would be classified but not in terms of pilot operation.

 

Operation of the RWR from a procedural standpoint is mostly unclassified, however there are details (mostly transparent from a pilot operation point of view) such frequencies and PRFs that are classified. Details on the function of the jammer e.g operating modes and performance is classified. Weapons performance including ranges, warhead effectiveness, seeker effectiveness are classified. Despite this there is still plenty of scope for ED to develope a very good simulation.

 

As for the Litening pod I don't know if there is anything classified about it. The capability of it to track targets will be a function of the optics design and the algorithms embedded in the software. These technologies will certainly be export controlled and proprietary of Northrop Grumman.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Blaze1

[nscode]

No one cares when info like cockpit buttons and their use is declassified. However, info about implementation of their function might be classified.

 

For example, if targeting pod was modeled very accurately (i.e. image was really processed, not just shown to us), then such model would not be released to public, because it could be used in "research" how to defeat that sensor in real life.

 

that not applicable for this kind of sim, since it would probalby require a dedicated machine just for that. what we get is an approximation of the guessed result of the processing, however it may be correct.

[Stretch]

I know the EWS has worlds of functionality beyond what is modeled in the sim. In photographs I've seen of the real deal, I've seen some jammer modes on the left side of the display (XT3, SBY) and some jammer statuses on the right (STBY, REC, SSS, SST, INH) that aren't in the game.

[Blaze1]

I know the EWS has worlds of functionality beyond what is modeled in the sim. In photographs I've seen of the real deal, I've seen some jammer modes on the left side of the display (XT3, SBY) and some jammer statuses on the right (STBY, REC, SSS, SST, INH) that aren't in the game.

Hi Stretch:)

 

EW is usually an area that has plenty of scope for development for sim designers, but due to the classified nature of the systems being simulated, developers perhaps have to mainly build upon theory and any available reports on systems.

As for the modes/indications you listed above, those aren't classified per se and really just indicated the status of the jammer as far as I know. Things such as the jamming mode and technique, the status of individual frequency bands (whether in standby or transmit), whether jamming or countermeasures dispensing is inhibited, if the pod is in receive mode etc are displayed.

[ApacheDoctor]

I highly doubt the Air National Guard Unit that assisted ED in developing this game would have even considered allowing these wonderful people on base to assist them if anything was classifed. For example, the engines that power the A-10C are the same that power the CRJ series of commercial aircraft. For the flight data on power ratings, thrust, etc, its a series of calculations as they have the same thrust rating you are just dealing with different weights and payload configurations.

 

As far as the avionics go etc, not everything is modelled or as well as it could be. What you need to grasp and understand here is that this is a SIMULATION, not the real deal. You wont see the Air Force using this simulator any time soon to train its pilots...however, your Armchair Aviator or enthuasist like myself will feel a pucker factor with some of the systems we have set up at home. Fact of the matter is that not everything will be modelled as there are some limits that cannot be passed. Will that change? Only the future can decide.

 

Lastly: OPSEC stands for Operational Security. We wouldnt even have the game if OPSEC was afraid that classified information was getting out.

[vrv]

I can see it now....KGB...I mean FSB Headquarters. Director Vladimir Putin errr Random guy they promoted. *Thick Russian voice* "Ah comrades we have finally discovered what the cockpit of the A-10 looks like. All we need is everything else and we make tanks big and strong like Helenkova." :p