Roll rate

[aaron886]

Does anyone else feel that the clean roll rate on the new Hog is very slow? I had a chance to watch the A-10 West demonstration flight two days before the DCS:A-10C beta release, and that guy could really make that thing roll, even at slow speeds in about a 45 degree climb. (probably <200 knots)

 

The announcer mentioned a little under 200 degrees per second.

 

See 1:15, and 2:35.

 

 

At about a full fuel load, and clean, I was able to get about 78 degrees/second. (one aileron roll in 4.6 seconds average)

Edited October 8, 2010 by aaron886

[XxVapor22Xx]

yea they need to tweak it alittle. But its a beta so

[Roadhog]

it seems if you give it a little rudder in the direction you are rolling, you can get a very, very quick roll out of it.

[GGTharos]

Yep. Rudder helps.

[Steel Jaw]

Of course it rolls like a pig: it's an airborne tank. :D

[aaron886]

Beta...

 

 

Given...

 

 

 

it seems if you give it a little rudder in the direction you are rolling, you can get a very, very quick roll out of it.

 

 

A small amount of (coordinated) rudder only seems to buy me about .25 seconds difference on a single aileron roll. (about 3.7 to 3.9 seconds) I wouldn't imagine you'd roll the jet in real life with any more rudder than is needed to keep it coordinated. Either way, it's a large disparity against the A-10A IRL.

 

 

Either way, just something to note to see if ED had a specific reason, or if it was a problem on my end. I'm sure it has already been fixed in later builds.

[GGTharos]

You are assuming it is a bug. I might not be.

[EvilBivol-1]

At the very least, you have to consider the fuel load. At full fuel as you mentioned in your test, the wings are full of fuel. Additionally, you should consider instantaneous vs. sustained roll rate.

 

Having said that, some of the closed beta testers had also commented before that the roll rate appears to be slower than one would expected, but I'm not sure that the FM team agreed.

Edited October 8, 2010 by EvilBivol-1

[aaron886]

At the very least, you have to consider the fuel load. At full fuel as you mentioned in your test, the wings are full of fuel. Additionally, you should consider instantaneous vs. sustained roll rate.

 

Having said that, some of the closed beta testers had also commented before that the roll rate appears to be slower than one would expected, but I'm not sure that the FM team agreed.

 

Thanks for the reply, EB.

 

I definitely did consider fuel state. I've been flying the Hog in plenty of different configurations, but between 100, 50, and 25% fuel loads, the roll rate only changes by 4 or 5 tenths of a second. I'm just measuring the time it takes to complete a single aileron roll. I would consider that sustained, but it doesn't seem to vary much at all between instantaneous and sustained. (Not sure why it would, aside from the initial effect of uncoordinated adverse yaw.)

 

When comparing a single, coordinated aileron roll at any of those fuel states to one from an A-10A demo flight, or pretty much any footage, the roll rate in this beta is very slow... something near 2/3 as fast as what the real roll rate appears to be. (On the conservative side!)

 

Something for the FM team to consider, perhaps! It doesn't really get "in the way" of the sim experience, but it can certainly matter when you need to jink your way out of fire, etc.

[EvilBivol-1]

In earlier testing, we had noticed that if you watch the stick itself during the roll, it takes a while to reach full deflection. That's as much as I can comment on the issue though.

[aaron886]

In earlier testing, we had noticed that if you watch the stick itself during the roll, it takes a while to reach full deflection. That's as much as I can comment on the issue though.

 

 

Understood, no worries. I definitely noticed that too, although it didn't seem to affect control response. (Everything seems very instantaneous, even though the ailerons/stick move move slowly.)

 

 

Either way, before this thread dies, I have to say the FM feels absolutely amazing, and hands-down it is my single favorite FM experience in 14 years of simming. Stunning "feel" to it! I can't get over how "right" it feels to land it. :thumbup:

[GGTharos]

I'll have a look at it too, I must have flown too benign profiles.

[Blaze]

I'll have my friend Dean Wright test this out this weekend too. He flew A-10A's in Desert Storm. :)

[SilentEagle]

I'll have to agree, even if it is just a beta. With a clean jet, the first thing I noticed was the slow roll rate. Comparing to numerous A-10 demonstration videos, the roll rate in DCS doesn't look or feel right.

 

Real A-10 Demo (Watch 3:07-3:13) Looks like he completes the roll in about 2.2 seconds.

 

(50% fuel, clean jet)

The beta version A-10C completes a full 360 degree roll in: 3.79 seconds

 

and sustained 360 degree rate is: 4.21 seconds

Edited October 8, 2010 by SilentEagle

[Moa]

I've posted this before but the A4 was known to be able to roll around 720 degrees/second and most modern fighters at 360/second (something that FC2 finally improved upon, after being and entire factor of 2 out for years [which possibly passed the same FM team?]).

 

The A-10 is noted for being agile and its roll rate in-game does not appear to match the roll rate shown in videos for similar conditions. The flight model is pretty awesome (apart from no pre-stall buffet, unless I missed it) but the roll rate clean does seem awfully sluggish compared to what you see the real things doing.

 

The FM team could possibly have overlooked some factor (eg. load on outboard stations have high inertia) that would lead to a roll rate that doesn't match the apparent roll rate ... and the apparent roll rate should be taken as a 'point of truth'.

 

nb. the moment of inertia is mass x lever-arm distance squared IIRC

the fuel in the fuselage or on the inner wing has to be very heavy to match the effect of a rocket pod on the outer wing. Without stuff on the outer wing the MoI would decrease dramatically - but of course the FM team will be all over that.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Moa

[aaron886]

The flight model is pretty awesome (apart from no pre-stall buffet, unless I missed it)

 

 

Everything but that roll rate seems fantastic to me. You can definitely begin to "sense" the stall once you fly it enough... but if you have controls with a small throw range, it's more difficult to feel the wings start to go. The audio cuing is obviously helpful too. There's no huge "shudder" like in previous ED titles, but I think that's a good improvement. The jet shouldn't be riding like an earthquake, just detaching airflow. Obviously I've never flown a Hog but I assume it's not going to be a terribly rough ride at the buffet... it's a fine "seat of the pants" feeling. :)

[NotiA10]

fyi - during demos they also employ the boards in order to achieve a higher roll rate.

 

wbr,

 

NotiA10

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Boards?

[Yo-Yo]

Does anyone else feel that the clean roll rate on the new Hog is very slow? I had a chance to watch the A-10 West demonstration flight two days before the DCS:A-10C beta release, and that guy could really make that thing roll, even at slow speeds in about a 45 degree climb. (probably <200 knots)

 

The announcer mentioned a little under 200 degrees per second.

 

See 1:15, and 2:35.

 

 

At about a full fuel load, and clean, I was able to get about 78 degrees/second. (one aileron roll in 4.6 seconds average)

 

Please refer to the flight manual - there are values for the roll rate. Maximum roll rate mentioned there is for high altitude max IAS flight. Try to compare.

 

If the roll rate (I hope you mean roll acceleration too) seems to be a little bit low, remember that nobody fills wing tanks before demonstration... :)

 

The effect of roll rate increasing using air brakes is not implemented yet.

 

 

About the announcer: you can say the same. It's my favorite advice... :)

Edited October 8, 2010 by Yo-Yo

[Yo-Yo]

To break complaining I quote the FM:

 

Roll rates up to 130 degrees per second can be expected with 0% speed brakes at 300 KIAS and up to 200 degrees per second with 40% speed brakes at 300 KIAS (Greetings to the Announcer!)

 

NB: the roll rate at SL will be less because of more damping effect.

[Lobo_63]

TO IA-IOA-I

FLIGHT MANUAL

USAF SERIES

A-lOA

AIRCRAFT

Serno 75-00258 and subsequent

 

SECTION VI

FLIGHT CHARACTERISTICS

 

Pg 6-1

 

"Roll Control

The ailerons provide satisfactory roll control

throughout the flight envelope. Roll response increases

with increasing speed brake setting up to approximately

20%, is relatively flat between 20% and

40%, then begins to fall off again until roll response

at 80% again equals response at 0% deflection. Roll

rates up to 130 degrees per second can be expected with 0%

speed brakes at 300 KIAS, and up to 200 degrees per second

with 40% speed brakes at 300 KIAS."

 

So it seems that in the real aircraft (A10A) the roll rate was somewhat adjustable by deploying the speed brakes up to 40%. Effectively changing the shape/deflection of the ailerons.

 

Question is, does the sim model this?

 

Can someone try this speed brakes out to about 40% and check the roll rate vs speed brakes in?

 

Cheers

[sobek]

Question is, does the sim model this?

 

Answer:

 

The effect of roll rate increasing using air brakes is not implemented yet.

[Lobo_63]

"The effect of roll rate increasing using air brakes is not implemented yet"

 

Does this mean that this effect will be in the release version of DCS A-10C, or that it may be included in a future version?

 

Thanks! :)

[Yo-Yo]

Yes, we are going to use it for next DCS plane. :)

 

To be serious, of course we plan to have it in release version.

[Lobo_63]

Thanks for the info Yo-Yo. You just made a sale. :)