IvanK Posted December 25, 2011 Posted December 25, 2011 "The EOS wasn't activated by the pilot" maybe should be re phrased: "The EOS couldnt be activated by the pilot due to a mechanical fault caused by incorrect installation"
mvsgas Posted December 25, 2011 Posted December 25, 2011 "The EOS wasn't activated by the pilot" maybe should be re phrased: "The EOS couldnt be activated by the pilot due to a mechanical fault caused by incorrect installation" How would you know that when the investigation said they could not recover the EOS assembly? Due to the severe break-up of the MA, the following items were not recovered and therefore not available for analysis: left side bayonet, MP’s oxygen mask, and ejection seat EOS assembly. To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
IvanK Posted December 25, 2011 Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) I got that from this: "which can require more than 40 pounds of tug to activate — located at the pilot’s left thigh. According to the investigation, part of the activation mechanism was improperly installed. Nonetheless, the pilot made apparently vain attempts to activate the backup oxygen system." Read more: http://battleland.blogs.time.com/2011/12/23/f-22-mishap-blames-pilot-not-oxy-system/#ixzz1hWUu4d6d Though crash report says: "1F-22A-1 states: “To manually activate the EOS, pull the green ring up and out of the retaining slot (approximately 33 pound pull), then pull directly forward minimizing inboard/outboard and upward motion. The pull force required to activate the EOS may be in excess of 40 lbs. The green ring will travel approximately two inches and will not release from the seat side. There is no obvious detent to indicate that the EOS has been activated.” (Tab BB-17) The AFRL report identified that if the EOS wedge block had been incorrectly installed, the wedge block would be unable to move or rotate during manual EOS ring activation. However, during ground simulation the board members were able to initiate the EOS in the incorrectly installed position. (Tab U-4) Figure" http://usaf.aib.law.af.mil/ExecSum2011/F-22A_AK_16%20Nov%2010.pdf Which is a bit different I agree. Edited December 25, 2011 by IvanK
tflash Posted December 25, 2011 Posted December 25, 2011 Yes, I noticed that, that's why I limited my statement to what we know for sure: "The EOS wasn't activated by the pilot." The problem is that the report then goes on to incorrectly assume that this was due to a pilot error. There is nothing to sustantiate that. A correct statement would have been: "The board was not able to find material evidence as to why the pilot didn't activate the EOS. The board suggests the possibility that this was due to channelized attention". I would say IvanK's hypothesis is as valid as theirs. We just don't know. What we learned from the report about USAF brass and their misguided conception of leadership is disheartening. How on earth can you write a statement like "A damage cost of $147,672,000.00 includes the total destruction of the MA along with its internal stores. The MP did not eject and was fatally injured." ? What about: "Besides the tragic loss of the pilot, a damage cost of $147,672,000.00 is incurred including the total destruction of the MA along with its internal stores." My heart goes with the pilot and his family. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
hassata Posted December 25, 2011 Posted December 25, 2011 Don't worry, I'm sure they monetized the loss to include training, food, flight suit and all the rest of it :(. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
mikoyan Posted December 25, 2011 Posted December 25, 2011 I think that there are several things wrong with the jet itself: 1-cockpit glass is too narrow preventing pilot from moving freely while wearing nvgs. 2-poorly positioned eos system and operation: they said in the report; the ring is hard to reach when wearing nvgs and suit for low temperatures. The ring was incorrectly installed too. It is also hard to see. 3- they really need to find out what really caused the initial failure. 4- Can't they make that eos an automatic system? Kinda sucks if you have that failure in the middle of an combat at night wearing lots of gear isn't it? to have to grab a small ring down in the cockpit. Yes the pilot may have had channelized attention but they don't say anything about solving the issues with the jet; issues that started the chain of events that lead to the crash. He had to do several task while lacking oxygen supply. Also isn't the stick of the raptor like an f-16 stick? if that is the case; it would be very easy to accidentally put the aircraft in a roll without noticing. That is why I like center sticks better; you have actually move them to make things happen.
Vekkinho Posted December 25, 2011 Posted December 25, 2011 Anyway, anyone who reads the report should read between the lines. Pilot is unfortunately dead to hear his side of the story. What I believe is hypoxia taking its toll, no control inputs from pilot for 39 secs...pilot couldn't reach EOS ring for the same reason, hitting the ground nose down smashing M1.5. There's too many evidence that oxy system and whoever installed it is the one to be blamed with murder. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
GGTharos Posted December 25, 2011 Posted December 25, 2011 Hypoxia was specifically ruled out. He had enough air in the hose for the time required to complete his maneuvers. Had he suffered from hypoxia, he'd have never attempted to pull up to avoid the crash. You don't just recover from hypoxia in a few seconds by dropping below 10000 like it is in A-10C. Anyway, anyone who reads the report should read between the lines. Pilot is unfortunately dead to hear his side of the story. What I believe is hypoxia taking its toll, no control inputs from pilot for 39 secs...pilot couldn't reach EOS ring for the same reason, hitting the ground nose down smashing M1.5. There's too many evidence that oxy system and whoever installed it is the one to be blamed with murder. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
tflash Posted December 29, 2011 Posted December 29, 2011 After they were so eager to blame the pilot, they now find it prudent to inspect the EOS fleetwide: http://www.newsherald.com/articles/force-99290-inspected-oxygen.html My - humble and strictly personal - opinion on these guys wouldn't comply with the forum rules, that's for sure! :D [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
bumfire Posted December 29, 2011 Author Posted December 29, 2011 Speaking to a buddy a few days ago who works at Boeing and builds the thing, he said that there was A memo regarding faulty ox system posted ages ago and that everyone knew that their was a problem long before the crash. I don't know the ins and outs of it all, but he said that it was a well known problem. Makes you wonder what all else they know is wrong with the thing but haven't got around to fixing yet...
mvsgas Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 I don't understand all the talk about the emergency oxygen system. AFAIK, it is the same system as all other US active aircraft with ACES II, a small gaseous oxygen on the side of the ejection seat. To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..
Phantom88 Posted January 15, 2012 Posted January 15, 2012 DoD:Toxins Suspected in Raptor Grounding... http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2012/01/air-force-defense-toxins-suspected-in-raptor-grounding-011312w/ A report from the Pentagon’s top tester released Friday said the Air Force grounded its F-22 Raptors last year “due to suspected contamination problems associated with the aircraft environmental control system and associated onboard oxygen generation system form later April through late September 2011.” Complied by the Pentagon’s chief operational tester J. Michael Gilmore, the review confirms Air Force Times’ July 25, 2011, report that toxins entering the cockpit of the Raptor had caused more than a dozen incidents that resembled hypoxia. Since the grounding was lifted in September, the Raptor has flown more than 6,000 times. More incidents have occurred, despite Air Force precautions that include installing charcoal-based filters and having pilots wear pulse-oximeters to alert them of problems. “There have been approximately 90 events of interest and 15 are being investigated for potential physiological incidents -— 8 involving pilots and 7 involving aircraft maintenance personnel,” said Air Force spokeswoman Jennifer Ferrau. “This translates to a 1.8 percent event rate since the return to flight in September.” The Air Force categorizes these occurrences into “events of interest” and “physiological incidents.” An event of interest is an aircraft indication, system malfunction or a data point that has not caused symptoms of hypoxia, but is noteworthy for data collection and further analysis, Ferrau said. “Any event involving hypoxia-like symptoms may be categorized by Air Force Instructions as a physiological incident following an investigation,” she said. A Scientific Advisory Board quick-look study ordered last year by Air Force secretary Michael Donley should be finalizing its report either in late January or early February. Sources say the service investigators have not found any single explanation for the Raptor’s woes. The problem can’t be duplicated on the ground, nor do the hypoxia-like incidents occur during any consistent altitude or phase of flight—if in fact the cause happens in the air. Patrick
tflash Posted January 15, 2012 Posted January 15, 2012 Still a mistery, and I guess one that is followed attentively throughout the aerospace industry. The Raptor is one of the first aircraft that uses composites in such an overwhelming way. Also, a lot of new skin materials and glues have been used. It's not abnormal that some unexpected issues with toxins arise. In a way, it's good that these issues come to light with the Raptor, it would be a whole lot more disturbing if it were on a 787! We're not even completely confident that an all composite aircraft is your best bet when entering electromagnetically disturbed airspace like a lightning storm. As with previous revolutionary techniques, it takes time to sort it all out. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
Recommended Posts