Question for F-16 fans and Falcon 4.0 flyers

[SgtPappy]

I've been reading up on all the new radar systems popping up in the US and Russia and I have a question about the competence of the today's USAF F-16's BVR capability:

 

IRBIS-E, N011V in the future Flanker series and the the new AESA APG-79 and -63(V)2/3's coming out for F/A-18s and F-15s.

 

The F-16 is such a capable fighter yet only one version has the APG-80 AESA system. All US variants are fitted with APG-68(V)5-9 versions of the -68. How does this radar set compare to contemporary pulse-doppler systems in most F/A-18s [APG-73] and F-15s [APG-63(V)1] in terms of detection range for, say, a 1-5 sq.m target?

 

I've seen figures for the -68(V)9 tracking ~40 sq.m targets from about 185 mi. with the (V)5 about 140 mi. Not really sure about those figures as they're probably all classified.

 

Since the fighter has a small RCS anyway, would it at least be able to attack any 4th gen. fighter with better radar before the F-16 itself is in danger?

[SUBS17]

The advantages of AESA is you don't have to wait for the radar to scan as its continuous from what I've read compared to the F-16s radar which sweeps. Also AESA on some aircraft like the Superhornet can do both A/G mode and A/A with AESA at the same time. I haven't seen any info on performance etc but my view is although they might detect an F-16 from further away an F-16 will still pick it up unless its a stealth fighter like the T50 or F22.

[SFJackBauer]

The F-16 is such a capable fighter yet only one version has the APG-80 AESA system.

 

Why would the US upgrade their F-16s, while the new toys are coming? (F-22, F-35). Also the comparatively small F-16 cooling and space compared to other alternatives limit current-generation AESA use on it.

 

All US variants are fitted with APG-68(V)5-9 versions of the -68. How does this radar set compare to contemporary pulse-doppler systems in most F/A-18s [APG-73] and F-15s [APG-63(V)1] in terms of detection range for, say, a 1-5 sq.m target?

 

Although your next paragraph kinda reveals it, I'm not so sure what comparison you want to do: F-16 AESA vs F/A-18 Pulse-Doppler or F-16 Pulse-Doppler vs F/A-18 Pulse-Doppler?

 

I've seen figures for the -68(V)9 tracking ~40 sq.m targets from about 185 mi. with the (V)5 about 140 mi. Not really sure about those figures as they're probably all classified.

 

I don't have much mathematical ability, but given 40 sqm is a rather large RCS, I would not be surprised. But:

 

Since the fighter has a small RCS anyway, would it at least be able to attack any 4th gen. fighter with better radar before the F-16 itself is in danger?

 

One guy posted some calculations on F-16.net:

 

BVR, Head-to-Head:

 

The Frontal RCS of F-16C: 1.2m2

 

The Frontal RCS of Su-27/30: 10m2

 

 

Maximum effective detective Range:

 

AN/APG-68 V5: 70~80 km for RCS = 5m2 target

 

AN/APG-68 V9: 90~105 km for RCS = 5m2 target

 

AN/APG-80: 130km for RCS = 5m2 target

 

 

 

N-001 (Su-27S): 80~100 km for RCS = 3m2 target

 

N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2): 90~110 km for RCS = 3m2 target

 

N-001 V (Su-27SM): 135~150 km for RCS = 3m2 target

 

(AIR INTERNATIONAL, 2004, Jan)

 

NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI): "140~160 km for an F-16 target"

(http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html)

 

 

Theoretically,

 

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V5 to detect Su-27/30 is about 85~95 km.

 

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-68 V9 to detect Su-27/30 is about 110~125 km.

 

# The maximum effective detective range for AN/APG-80 to detect Su-27/30 is about 155 km.

 

 

 

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 (Su-27S) to detect F-16C is about 64~80 km.

 

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 VEP (Su-30MKK2) to detect F-16C is about 70~88 km.

 

@ The maximum effective detective range for N-001 V (Su-27 SM) to detect F-16C is about 105~120 km.

 

@ The maximum effective detective range for NO11M Bars (SU-30MKI) to detect F-16C is about 140~160 km.

 

Source

[MudRat02]

An Su-27/30 has a frontal radar cross-section of 10m2? I'd like to see some reliable sources for that.

[SFJackBauer]

Its all largely speculation, I agree, but honestly I think its not too far off.

 

Look at how it is constructed, two engines with straight ducts, EO dome right in front of the canopy, grilles, a large radome... All the little things contribute to RCS, even panels alignment etc.

[SgtPappy]

Why would the US upgrade their F-16s, while the new toys are coming? (F-22, F-35). Also the comparatively small F-16 cooling and space compared to other alternatives limit current-generation AESA use on it.

 

The same reason they're fitting Super Hornets and F-15C Golden Eagles with AESA I suppose.

Also, F-22 production has halted and the F-35 really hasn't been evaluated as stellar really.

 

 

Although your next paragraph kinda reveals it, I'm not so sure what comparison you want to do: F-16 AESA vs F/A-18 Pulse-Doppler or F-16 Pulse-Doppler vs F/A-18 Pulse-Doppler?

 

Well the APG-68(V)xx is a pulse-doppler radar. Thanks for the figures from F-16.net though.

 

The only thing is, I've seen a figure of 15-25 sq.m frontal cross-section area for the F-15 and Su-27.

[Succellus]

The same reason they're fitting Super Hornets and F-15C Golden Eagles with AESA I suppose.

Also, F-22 production has halted and the F-35 really hasn't been evaluated as stellar really.

 

Thats lame but will change if Russia comes heating with the PAK-FA and Chinese continue stealing Russian Tech.

 

As for the F35, even Bruce Willis downed one...and with a truck to top that. :)