Flight Qualifications Campaign

[Sabre-TLA]

Managed to pass A-10C BT10. Did exactly 310 seconds from the last verbal message. Thanks again

 

Very good. We think we may add a 2 minute warning message to let users know they are getting close to their TOT time. That would give them a chance to update their DTOT and change their speed.

 

Unfortunately since the missions use flags to control the scripting a single stuck or flipped bit can cause unexpected results. I recommend flying the mission at least a couple of times if you encounter any errors as the next attempt might be ok as it could use a different memory area.

 

We will continue to try and make the missions more robust and less prone to future game engine issues.

[Redglyph]

For the Spiral Dive you should hear the FE say:

"Keep pulling that stick into your gut Cadet!" When banked and pulling heading between 0 and 30.

"Good." When banked and pulling heading between 90 and 180.

"Good. You can level off now. You completed the spiral dive." When your altitude is lower than 7700'.

Either all or none at all. It's not obvious knowing what the criteria are: speed, angles, when we have to stop. The last one was obvious on 2nd try when I heard the last communication above, but on the first time I just thought doing it for some time was enough.

 

And since it takes quite a while to get back to this part, it would be nice to know a little bit in advance what is expected...

 

For the Lazy 8 you should hear the FE say:

"Good." When banked and heading between 0 and 180.

You should then level off (roll wings level) above 7800' altitude.

"Well Done! You are back on course and altitude.' When you are on heading 200 to 220 and altitude higher than 7800' and wings and pitch level.

 

Never heard the last one, but the first one was said. Again, we only get one try after a long time of simulation. Maybe I should try to save the track and replay from that point to save some time, but from past experience it's not always working very well. A save function would really be great in DCS ;)

 

It may be the safest choice however the mission brief specifically states to land at the Emergency Divert Airfield (#13 in the Mission Objectives). I think we will add a message to indicate if the player lands at the wrong airfield.

 

I see. I was wondering about this, and it was not that clear because from what the FE says we have to decide in function of the situation. Also, in the documentation there is one page with this airfield, and a map with Kobuleti on the next (either to show the extent of the military operation area, or to show that this airbase is in the MOA, it may be ambiguous). Since I tried to land once on this strip and found it obviously very (too) short, and usually at the same distance or almost than the Kobuleti airport, the safe choice was obvious.

[Sabre-TLA]

Either all or none at all. It's not obvious knowing what the criteria are: speed, angles, when we have to stop. The last one was obvious on 2nd try when I heard the last communication above, but on the first time I just thought doing it for some time was enough.

 

And since it takes quite a while to get back to this part, it would be nice to know a little bit in advance what is expected...

 

 

 

Never heard the last one, but the first one was said. Again, we only get one try after a long time of simulation. Maybe I should try to save the track and replay from that point to save some time, but from past experience it's not always working very well. A save function would really be great in DCS ;)

 

 

 

I see. I was wondering about this, and it was not that clear because from what the FE says we have to decide in function of the situation. Also, in the documentation there is one page with this airfield, and a map with Kobuleti on the next (either to show the extent of the military operation area, or to show that this airbase is in the MOA, it may be ambiguous). Since I tried to land once on this strip and found it obviously very (too) short, and usually at the same distance or almost than the Kobuleti airport, the safe choice was obvious.

 

In the BFT06 practice mission for the spiral dive the FE does say:

 

"Recover before angels 6."

 

Additionally he says:

 

"Good. Keep a 10 degree nose down dive angle." So as long as you have a nose down attitude and circle around the headings then you should be able to pass it. It does take practice. What additional info would you like to see to make it clearer?

 

For the landing at the divert airfield the FE says:

 

"Now steer towards the Emergency Divert Airfield identified in the briefing and attempt to land on the runway."

 

This is also achievable with practice. What additional info would you like to see to make this clearer?

[Redglyph]

Just to be clear, I'm only trying to give some feedback, not criticize - my earlier impressions remain, it's a great and very useful campaign! And from the look of it, it seems there is little freedom in the scripting possibilities so it's quite an achievement.

 

In the BFT06 practice mission for the spiral dive the FE does say:

 

"Recover before angels 6."

 

Additionally he says:

 

"Good. Keep a 10 degree nose down dive angle." So as long as you have a nose down attitude and circle around the headings then you should be able to pass it. It does take practice. What additional info would you like to see to make it clearer?

 

For the landing at the divert airfield the FE says:

 

"Now steer towards the Emergency Divert Airfield identified in the briefing and attempt to land on the runway."

 

This is also achievable with practice. What additional info would you like to see to make this clearer?

 

Being stubborn, I tried again ;)

 

1) In the defensive spiral dive, I went down to about 6.5 kft but only got the "you failed to make a successful dive.", then a bit after "Keep pulling that stick into your gut Cadet!" (probably a condition course, I can appreciate the scripting in DCS is probably quite limited). The descent was pretty much constant, with a banking between 65-80°, trying to maintain about 10-15 degrees pitch. Not sure what I did wrong, but it didn't only take to keep the nose down and circle around for me this time :confused:

 

What wasn't entirely clear to me was,

- those angles, but you're right, the 10 degree is mentioned;

- how fast I had to go, because the EF says "the advantage usually goes to the aircraft that can decelerate quicker. You can cut power and extend the speedbrakes in an effort to force an overshoot" (though here we're alone, so maybe it's just advice for a real case);

- how long I had to do it, because I wasn't getting any message - once you succeed, you know of course, but before that you're just wondering if that's what is expected of you;

 

 

2) The lazy 8 seemed fine at first, got two encouraging messages ("Good. At mid-way through the turn you should be at a 90 degrees bank[...]" and "Good. You were level at the mid-point[...]"), but when I was back to my original heading after the maneuver he just said I failed. I had a moment of hesitation near the end and stopped pulling on the stick a moment, then realizing I wasn't really back to 210 but maybe a tad left of 200 added some more pulling, that must be it. The level-off was above 7800 (about 8600 ft).

 

What needs to be clarified (IMHO) is the angles, the document shows a 180-degrees turn, the EF mentions a 90-degree turn, then later a 90-degree bank. I took the 90° turn and bank option and was about 120°, so from what you said here a 180° should do it also, so I guess both work, but only after your clarifications here :)

 

 

3) Before the emergency landing, the EF says "To simulate an emergency we will shutdown both engines and you will be required to glide the aircraft into a suitable landing area.", and a little later, what you quoted. From what I said before, it's an easy mistake (or temptation perhaps) to take the other airfield. I damaged the aircraft but he said I could now take the qualification (that I'd fail with those poor results I suspect).

 

 

I'm pretty confident that a few more tries should see the end of it.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Redglyph

[Sabre-TLA]

Just to be clear, I'm only trying to give some feedback, not criticize - my earlier impressions remain, it's a great and very useful campaign! And from the look of it, it seems there is little freedom in the scripting possibilities so it's quite an achievement.

 

 

 

Being stubborn, I tried again ;)

 

1) In the defensive spiral dive, I went down to about 6.5 kft but only got the "you failed to make a successful dive.", then a bit after "Keep pulling that stick into your gut Cadet!" (probably a condition course, I can appreciate the scripting in DCS is probably quite limited). The descent was pretty much constant, with a banking between 65-80°, trying to maintain about 10-15 degrees pitch. Not sure what I did wrong, but it didn't only take to keep the nose down and circle around for me this time :confused:

 

What wasn't entirely clear to me was,

- those angles, but you're right, the 10 degree is mentioned;

- how fast I had to go, because the EF says "the advantage usually goes to the aircraft that can decelerate quicker. You can cut power and extend the speedbrakes in an effort to force an overshoot" (though here we're alone, so maybe it's just advice for a real case);

- how long I had to do it, because I wasn't getting any message - once you succeed, you know of course, but before that you're just wondering if that's what is expected of you;

 

 

2) The lazy 8 seemed fine at first, got two encouraging messages ("Good. At mid-way through the turn you should be at a 90 degrees bank[...]" and "Good. You were level at the mid-point[...]"), but when I was back to my original heading after the maneuver he just said I failed. I had a moment of hesitation near the end and stopped pulling on the stick a moment, then realizing I wasn't really back to 210 but maybe a tad left of 200 added some more pulling, that must be it. The level-off was above 7800 (about 8600 ft).

 

What needs to be clarified (IMHO) is the angles, the document shows a 180-degrees turn, the EF mentions a 90-degree turn, then later a 90-degree bank. I took the 90° turn and bank option and was about 120°, so from what you said here a 180° should do it also, so I guess both work, but only after your clarifications here :)

 

 

3) Before the emergency landing, the EF says "To simulate an emergency we will shutdown both engines and you will be required to glide the aircraft into a suitable landing area.", and a little later, what you quoted. From what I said before, it's an easy mistake (or temptation perhaps) to take the other airfield. I damaged the aircraft but he said I could now take the qualification (that I'd fail with those poor results I suspect).

 

 

I'm pretty confident that a few more tries should see the end of it.

 

Please don't misunderstand me either. We appreciate the feedback but our response can sound defensive when a user say's a mission is broken and it plays ok for us.

 

However we recognize we have inside knowledge of the triggers so making the leap from that knowledge to providing enough info to the user to get the same understanding (without going into all the trigger detail) is challenging.

 

For the spiral dive try a slower speed - it could be you are progressing through the heading change too quickly for the game engine to register the setting. You want to stay out of phase with an attacker on your tail so circling down is one way to achieve that.

 

For the lazy eight it's a climbing roll to the left then descending roll back to the same altitude so you are correct it's a 180 degree turn but with a climb and descend in the turn portion and being 90 degrees of bank a the mid point of the turn.

 

With practice you will get good at doing that efficiently too. The 2nd part of the maneuver is doing the same thing in the opposite direction (climbing right turn) and finishing on the same heading and altitude you started at.

 

Continue to let us know how we can make it better and we will do what we can but you are correct in that we are limited to what can be programmed in the mission editor.

 

Our intent is that when you do complete the campaign you can be proud that you actually accomplished something tangible.

[Redglyph]

Thanks for the help! Will try it out this weekend.

[0414 Wee Neal]

What to load

 

Hi

 

I have purchased all and run some of your missions and campaigns, which were great fun. I have due to numerous reasons had to do a complete uninstall and reinstall of DCS world and A10c (I waited until 1.5 came out of beta) and I now need to reload all of your missions and campaigns again. Where is the best place to down load these and more importantly which ones?

 

Thanks

 

Neal

[Sabre-TLA]

Hi

 

I have purchased all and run some of your missions and campaigns, which were great fun. I have due to numerous reasons had to do a complete uninstall and reinstall of DCS world and A10c (I waited until 1.5 came out of beta) and I now need to reload all of your missions and campaigns again. Where is the best place to down load these and more importantly which ones?

 

Thanks

 

Neal

 

Probably best to use this link.

 

It has all the 1.5 versions of our missions that are available for 1.5.

[Redglyph]

For the spiral dive try a slower speed - it could be you are progressing through the heading change too quickly for the game engine to register the setting. You want to stay out of phase with an attacker on your tail so circling down is one way to achieve that.

 

For the lazy eight it's a climbing roll to the left then descending roll back to the same altitude so you are correct it's a 180 degree turn but with a climb and descend in the turn portion and being 90 degrees of bank a the mid point of the turn.

 

Sorry, same results.

 

I took the dive much slower, around 160-170 kts, same banking and pitch, got one "good" message (pull that stick...), then after a long, long wait and at around 7000 ft, a "failed" notification.

 

Same for lazy 8.

 

To me, both were within specifications, I'll skip this one for now and continue.

 

I hope more advanced scripting will be available at some point in DCS, that would probably avoid those little quirks (and make life easier for developers, I'm sure).

[Sabre-TLA]

Sorry, same results.

 

I took the dive much slower, around 160-170 kts, same banking and pitch, got one "good" message (pull that stick...), then after a long, long wait and at around 7000 ft, a "failed" notification.

 

Same for lazy 8.

 

To me, both were within specifications, I'll skip this one for now and continue.

 

I hope more advanced scripting will be available at some point in DCS, that would probably avoid those little quirks (and make life easier for developers, I'm sure).

 

That's too bad. It could be a bug in 1.5 so we will retest.

 

Here are the specific trigger checks used in the latest version (I think you said you were using DCS World 1.5). Also make sure you have QFE set so you have the correct altitude settings.

 

Maybe we can add more dialogue when the user is outside the expected parameters (certainly in the practice missions might make sense - but likely not in the actual qualification mission). We will give this a think and see what we can do.

 

 

 

Spiral Dive:

Trigger Check 1: Produces "Keep pulling that stick into your gut Cadet!"

UNIT'S BANK IN LIMITS (PLAYER, -64, -6) - Tests to see you are banking left

UNIT'S HEADING IN LIMITS (PLAYER, 0, 30) - Tests to see your heading is between 0 and 30

 

Trigger Check 2: Produces "Good" as a way to tell you are still in the maneuver correctly.

UNIT'S BANK IN LIMITS (PLAYER, -64, -6) - Tests to see you are still banking left

UNIT'S HEADING IN LIMITS (PLAYER, 90, 180) - Tests to see your heading is between 90 and 180

 

Trigger Check 3: Produces "Good. You can level off now. You completed the spiral dive."

UNIT'S ALTITUDE LOWER THAN (PLAYER, 2377) - Tests to see if you dropped altitude below 7700'

 

Trigger Check 4:

TIME SINCE FLAG (30, 90) - This is the failed test flag if the above triggers are not set. You have 90 seconds for the maneuver. Flag 30 is set when you hear the "Begin Spiral Dive" message.

 

Lazy 8:

Trigger 1 Check: Produces "Good" as a way to tell you started the maneuver correctly.

UNIT'S BANK IN LIMITS (PLAYER, -64, -6) - Tests to see you are banking left

UNIT'S HEADING IN LIMITS (PLAYER, 0, 180) - Tests to see your heading is between 0 and 180

 

Trigger 2 Check: No sound (maybe we should another "Good" reference dialogue here).

UNIT'S ALTITUDE HIGHER THAN (PLAYER, 2407) - Tests to see if you climbed above 7800'

UNIT'S BANK IN LIMITS (PLAYER, -10, 10) - Tests to see if you are wings level at the flat spot in the maneuver

 

Trigger 3 Check: Produces "Good" as a way to tell you in the correct right hand bank.

UNIT'S BANK IN LIMITS (PLAYER, 64, 6) - Tests to see you are banking right

UNIT'S HEADING IN LIMITS (PLAYER, 230, 360) - Tests to see your heading is between 230 and 360

 

Trigger 4 Check: Produces: "Well Done! You are back on course and altitude."

UNIT'S ALTITUDE HIGHER THAN (PLAYER, 2407) - Tests to see if you climbed above 7800'

UNIT'S HEADING IN LIMITS (PLAYER, 200, 220) - Tests to see your heading is between 200 and 220

UNIT'S BANK IN LIMITS (PLAYER, -10, 10) - Tests to see if you are wings level

UNIT'S PITCH IN LIMITS (PLAYER, -5, 5) - Tests to see if your pitch is level

 

Trigger 5:

This triggers is a complicated one but it basically tests if you are off heading or altitude 80 seconds after the start of the maneuver (when you hear: "Dive to pick up speed and enter the maneuver. Begin when ready."

 

 

[bunraku]

Any idea why I can't download the A-10C advanced campaign? Both parts A and B just state they can't be downloaded?

 

Thanks

[Sabre-TLA]

Any idea why I can't download the A-10C advanced campaign? Both parts A and B just state they can't be downloaded?

 

Thanks

 

Are you using these links:

 

Part A

Part B

 

They work for me. Maybe try refreshing your browser?

 

All the links are available in the very first post of this thread.

[bunraku]

Thanks they worked

[Redglyph]

That's too bad. It could be a bug in 1.5 so we will retest.

 

OK, thanks! Yes, I'm using 1.5.3.

 

I had similar issues in mission 07 for the Immelman and the loop (the split-s was successful). Looking at the Tacview shape I don't undertand what is wrong (see screenshot - I'm not sure it's possible to hide the other trails so it's a bit hard to see). I'll skip it as well, it's not really a big concern for me.

 

Immelman: between 7000 ft (bottom) and 10500 ft (top), maybe the leveling-out was not straight enough? Not that it's really possible at the resulting speed.

 

Loop: between 7000 ft and 10500 ft

 

 

EDIT: wait, that might be because of the smoke. I thought the EF was kidding when he was talking about that, since it's mentioned nowhere in the flight manual. It appears those CATM-9 are not AA missiles are said in the flight manual but smoke pods. I'll try again with them.

 

EDIT 2: Nope. This time I didn't even have the time to begin the Immelman.

 

 

In mission 08 I noted the following issue / misunderstanding:

 

- L-GEN failure: I checked the breaker, switched the left generator to OFF/RESET and back on. This particular test failed and I'm said (see screenshot) I must put CROSSFEED to CROSSFEED first, but I see no mention of that in the emergency procedures.

 

Quite a fun mission! But it's a quite load of procedures to learn.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Redglyph

[Sabre-TLA]

Based on some user feedback we have adjusted some of the triggers in BFT06 - Advanced Handling.

 

The updated packages can be downloaded here:

 

A-10C BFT Campaign

 

A-10C BFT Practice Mission Package

 

Additionally we have updated these packages as well:

 

A-10C BFT Campaign for OpenBeta

 

A-10C BFT Practice Mission Package for OpenBeta

 

Your mission key and password can be used to install these updated packages and your campaign progress will not be impacted as it is recorded in your logbook.

[Sabre-TLA]

OK, thanks! Yes, I'm using 1.5.3.

 

I had similar issues in mission 07 for the Immelman and the loop (the split-s was successful). Looking at the Tacview shape I don't undertand what is wrong (see screenshot - I'm not sure it's possible to hide the other trails so it's a bit hard to see). I'll skip it as well, it's not really a big concern for me.

 

Immelman: between 7000 ft (bottom) and 10500 ft (top), maybe the leveling-out was not straight enough? Not that it's really possible at the resulting speed.

 

Loop: between 7000 ft and 10500 ft

 

 

EDIT: wait, that might be because of the smoke. I thought the EF was kidding when he was talking about that, since it's mentioned nowhere in the flight manual. It appears those CATM-9 are not AA missiles are said in the flight manual but smoke pods. I'll try again with them.

 

EDIT 2: Nope. This time I didn't even have the time to begin the Immelman.

 

 

In mission 08 I noted the following issue / misunderstanding:

 

- L-GEN failure: I checked the breaker, switched the left generator to OFF/RESET and back on. This particular test failed and I'm said (see screenshot) I must put CROSSFEED to CROSSFEED first, but I see no mention of that in the emergency procedures.

 

Quite a fun mission! But it's a quite load of procedures to learn.

 

Not sure why it failed for you in BFT07. That mission has played fine for us. I suggest you compare your flight to Recon Stewart's Video:

[ame]

[/ame]

 

to see where you may be going astray.

 

The CROSSFEED switch is required for any generator failure as it can cause problems

 

Page 581 in the DCS A-10C Flight Manual:

 

GEN, L/R. Either the generators are set to OFF/RESET or there is a failure. Such a failure will also lead to the failure of the Main and Wing fuel boost pumps and SAS channels.

Corrective Action:

1. If above 10,000 ft AGL, set the Crossfeed switch to CROSSFEED

2. Reset the failed generator switch back to OFF/RESET and then back to PWR

3. If after three attempts the generator does not come back online:

a. Set the failed generator back to OFF/RESET

b. Start APU when below 15,000 ft MSL

c. Set APU generator switch to PWR

d. Land as soon as practical

 

In our amplified checklist the CROSSFEED switch is recommended for any Main or Wing fuel boost pump failures (so it's not included specifically with the gen failure checklist - similar to the actual A-10A flight manual).

[Redglyph]

Thanks for the information, and for the mission 06 update.

 

I tried again, only the practice mission,

- the dive failed again, I really don't know why, didn't even get any comment during the maneuver,

- the lazy 8 failed too, though I got several "good" comments until the end when I was back to the correct altitude and bearing (the EF said so too), but right after he just said "you failed to ...".

 

I'll just give up at this point, it's probably too tricky to monitor an aircraft for that purpose in the current scripting environment.

 

I watched the video on mission 07, but my recover of the Immelman was much cleaner, it seems in the video the IAS is quite low when he starts, and he's in a bad stall at the end. Same for the loop, so I really don't know either. Also, if I take as much time as he does to set up my smoke pad, I'm already getting a failed status.

 

Hard to know exactly how to please the examiner since no reasons are given for these failures ;)

[Gliptal]

I also found these missions (along with the formation flight ones) to be the least consistent of all three campaigns.

[Sabre-TLA]

I can't explain it either as a 10 degree nose down and 60 degree bank worked fine for the spiral dive on my system (even fully throttled back).

 

Likewise had no problem completing the lazy eight either. When I get a chance I'll post up some videos (we intend to do videos for all our missions).

[Gliptal]

I can't explain it either as a 10 degree nose down and 60 degree bank worked fine for the spiral dive on my system (even fully throttled back).

 

Likewise had no problem completing the lazy eight either. When I get a chance I'll post up some videos (we intend to do videos for all our missions).

You're probably falling for the tester fallacy. You have no problems on your end because you designed the missions yourself, and are aware of how the triggers are set up, and what the quirks are. It's not a conscious behaviour either, you just can't escape it.

 

As a programmer, the first thing you learn is that there is no reliable way to test your own code, it just doesn't work. You yourself may spend days finding nothing, only for the next guy to find a serious bug in a matter of minutes. This is especially true for the more complex pieces of software, I know I found a bunch of inconsistencies and trigger states that completely break your missions a few times.

 

I'm not holding it against you, it's normal when you can't have a dedicated QA team. But don't be too quick to judge your mission as being fine only because you can reliably make it work. :smilewink:

Edited February 22, 2016 by Gliptal

[Sabre-TLA]

You're probably falling for the tester fallacy. You have no problems on your end because you designed the missions yourself, and are aware of how the triggers are set up, and what the quirks are. It's not a conscious behaviour either, you just can't escape it.

 

As a programmer, the first thing you learn is that there is no reliable way to test your own code, it just doesn't work. You yourself may spend days finding nothing, only for the next guy to find a serious bug in a matter of minutes. This is especially true for the more complex pieces of software, I know I found a bunch of inconsistencies and trigger states that completely break your missions a few times.

 

I'm not holding it against you, it's normal when you can't have a dedicated QA team. But don't be too quick to judge your mission as being fine only because you can reliably make it work. :smilewink:

 

I agree with you. When you design a mission you have inside knowledge and certain expectations of how the mission should go. You try to code for obvious issues (like off speed, heading or altitude) but maneuvers are more tricky and they require practice to get right.

 

I believe if you study the diagrams and perform the maneuvers as indicated then you should be able to pass them as the triggers are not checking for anything extra ordinary IOO.

[Redglyph]

When someone fails a test, the reason why should be known. I'm not sure it's easy from the state of the triggers, but I think that without this information it's a moot point to speculate whether the script is working, or whether the maneuver was executed properly. Nor does it allow to the poor cadet to improve ;)

 

The diagrams and the maneuvers are simple enough to understand but there are many parameters left to interpretation. For example the bank and pitch angles, from the diagram they seem pretty steep and that's how I tried the first time, without success. Once it seemed to succeed with a lower bank angle (and it was confirmed at the beginning of the procedure by some feedback) and about 80° bank, but I can't seem to reproduce that and there are many combination of parameters - not counting the fact the triggers are sometimes too slow to catch an event. Without knowing which parameters were wrong, it's just guess work and quickly gets frustrating, especially when it takes a while to repeat the operation.

[Sabre-TLA]

Maybe this video can help those that are having problems with the Spiral Dive (we should have a similar one for the Lazy Eight maneuver soon).

 

 

In our next update we can add some better messages to the mission to let Cadet's know when they are not flying the maneuver as intended.

 

From what we can tell in our testing the bank angle is key (we missed the trigger in the first turn as our bank angle was > 60 degrees but we caught it in the 2nd turn so was still able to complete the maneuver successfully).

[Redglyph]

From what we can tell in our testing the bank angle is key (we missed the trigger in the first turn as our bank angle was > 60 degrees but we caught it in the 2nd turn so was still able to complete the maneuver successfully).

Ah... If the bank angle must be less than 60, that must explain it, as I said before I was trying to maintain it between 65 and 80 or so.

[Sabre-TLA]

Ok we will update the bank angle triggers to allow for more wiggle room and update the messages to make it clearer when you are outside the parameters.