Rapid direction change "on spot"

[Mikoyan89]

Hey guys watch this @ 1:54

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMYj6X2-yoc

 

i was wondering if anybody knows something more about this capability of the shark;

Is it something that only coaxial rotors helicopters can do?

Is it made on the horizontal plane without gain or altitude loss?

In the game, i can rapidly invert flight direction by 180 degrees at a speed about 100 km/h with a rapid pedal input , entering in a slight turn and then pulling the cyclic ;

This manouvre takes little time and space and it's not violent and very effective, but i don't know if this is what that kamov pilot was referring to

 

Besides,i've found this on group Vergeev Blog:

Part 3:…...."Shark outstanding maneuverability and powerful weapons ensure utmost safety of cargoes and personnel in mountaneous country.

None of exisiting fight helicopters will provide similar quality of combat support.

No wonder that 233's pilot has got lots of convoy escort job to accomplish.

Instant 180-degree turn on spot, quick change of flight direction, incredible energy reserve,

possibility of piloting on sideslip without speed loss,

plus weapon power and armoring remain no chances to those engaged in partisan business - laying ambushes.”......

[Bucic]

Consider both, the blog and the video, a Discovery-like mumbo jumbo :)

Ka-50 does all the maneuvers like conventional helicopters do. The only difference is the actual performance e.g. Ka-50 may accomplish a 180 deg turn faster than any conventional helicopter of similar weight.

 

Instead of listening what mainstream journalists have to say about anything technical :doh: head to the 500 pages manual for DCS BS and study the performance curves.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Bucic

[Mikoyan89]

So the journalist translates bad what that pilot said? is this what you mean?

It's possible, journalists (even the aviation journalists) say many incorrect things.

And then, the extended manual doesn't cover this aspect. It states that coaxial helicopters have lower inertia moments on the yaw axis etc..it talks about funnel,accelerated turns,slant loops,flat turns....nothing about 180° turns on spot...and with the performance curves i can't understand what kind of maneuvers the Ka 50 can do

[Bucic]

My Russian got a little bit rusty since primary school so I can't verify the translation :)

 

Let's say you got distracted and suddenly you realize you're heading towards a mountain in level flight 200 kph. No one in the right mind would do a flat yaw turn in such a situation. Let's say you do choose to perform a flat yaw turn - you slow down to 100 kph, full left rudder untill a full 180 deg turn is accomplished. The first thing that happens is that you are still screaming towards the wall at ~70 kph... but backwards. Another thing is in backward flight Ka-50 is statically unstable i.e. the airflow may "kick your but" up 90 degrees in a completely uncontrollable and violent way.

 

I can't think of the more efficient way of turning around than... a classic 180 deg brake turn every helicopter and plane do: first bank left or right, then pull hard on the stick.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Bucic

[Mikoyan89]

In fact i've never talked about flat yaw turn. It takes too much time and space.

If i've understood well , that pilot says you can turn 180° right on the same place. I think he isn't talking about a flat turn , absurd in a mountainous area, but he's talking about a different manouvre that takes little space,which is perhaps the one i can do in dcs:bs, and just for this i wanted to know if actually there is a known maneuvre typical of this machine that allow you to rapid change the direction of flight in narrow spaces,not to simply turn your nose 180°respect to your flight path or make a turn without bank

[bogusheadbox]

The HAMMERHEAD manouver will turn you 180 degrees in direction with 0 lateral space use.

 

Here is a video of one (though the guy almost kills himself and has most certainly severly damaged his helicopter in the process) but it gives you the idea.

 

The hammerhead is brilliant for tight narrow places but involves an increase in height which may sometimes not be what you want.

 

[Bucic]

In fact i've never talked about flat yaw turn. It takes too much time and space.

If i've understood well , that pilot says you can turn 180° right on the same place. I think he isn't talking about a flat turn , absurd in a mountainous area, but he's talking about a different manouvre that takes little space,which is perhaps the one i can do in dcs:bs, and just for this i wanted to know if actually there is a known maneuvre typical of this machine that allow you to rapid change the direction of flight in narrow spaces,not to simply turn your nose 180°respect to your flight path or make a turn without bank

There is none to my knowledge. And please stop saying "instant" and "on the spot". You sound like a journalist ;)

[Yuya6104]

well me saw it with my own eyes now on video of #25 Yellow Black Shark preformed a demo of if where in the moutains did flat 180 snap turn watch video this at 2005 Maks no jonolists just the pilot and his skills as a pilot what counts ..

Edited January 4, 2011 by Yuya6104

[Bucic]

well me saw it with my own eyes now on video of #25 Yellow Black Shark preformed a demo of if where in the moutains did flat 180 snap turn no loss alt watch video this at 2005 Maks no jonolists just the pilot and his skills as a pilot what counts ..

At what time in the video?

[Yuya6104]

2:26 the time on video

[Bucic]

Oh please :)

[power5]

Thats a shallow hammerhead maneuver. Same concept, pitch up to slow forward progress, when almost out of forward momentum upward, rudder left and swing nose down and extend away. That Heli was probably barely going 60kmh at the start of the climb and covered way way more than 0' of lateral distance and it was anything but instant. All helis can do this maneuver.

 

 

All heli can spin in place, does a typical heli with tail rotor spin faster in one direction since the tail rotor does not need to overcome the main rotors rotational force?

[Bucic]

That Heli was probably barely going 60kmh at the start of the climb and covered way way more than 0' of lateral distance and it was anything but instant. All helis can do this maneuver.

And because of that I responded how I responded...

 

Let me end that discussion once and for all. And quick. The most efficient maneuver to reverse the forward level flight direction is the maneuver that will involve as high total lift (rotor + fuselage + stub wings etc.) as possible and as much aligned with the initial velocity vector ("direction of flight"). Simple and valid for every condition (in level flight) and every single flying craft known to human. That includes Ka-50 if someone's in doubt. EOT ;)

 

Here's a figure:

 

P.S. Poor rasterheads :D

Edited January 5, 2011 by Bucic

[power5]

I was just expanding on your in depth response a bit more. :) Just in case he was still a bit confused.

[topdog]

I believe the 'speciality' in the ka-50 is simply that without a tail rotor it won't suffer from vortex ring issue when rotating the craft around, meaning in theory it's not limited to how quickly it can spin on the spot whilst staying aloft.

 

Helis with tail rotors can effectively 'stall' the tail and crash when turning in some situations and have to limit their yaw speed.

 

That's how I heard it, and it may even be in the manuals somewhere (I don't profess to know them cover to cover by any means).

[26-J39]

does a typical heli with tail rotor spin faster in one direction since the tail rotor does not need to overcome the main rotors rotational force?

 

Sure does

[Bucic]

Sure does

And it's described in the manual. Vortex is not necessarily a spiral. This is how 'our' vortex ring looks like

 

 

 

 

Check out other vids on this guy's channel!

Edited January 5, 2011 by Bucic

[power5]

First video is wrong. His vortex did not end in a fireball.

 

I often get myself into these vortex states while trying to hover and use the shkval. I have terrible tunnel vision because I do not have TIR. I find my self watching a close up of my missile tracking to the tank and not heads up looking for enemies. Sometimes my hover does not hold altitude and I usually realize this when a ridge suddenly appears in my shkval screen when I thought I was a good 300m above the ground. Most times I have the ability to throttle up and pitch forward, some times I lawn dart.

[Bucic]

I often get myself into these vortex states while trying to hover and use the shkval. I have terrible tunnel vision because I do not have TIR. I find my self watching a close up of my missile tracking to the tank and not heads up looking for enemies. Sometimes my hover does not hold altitude and I usually realize this when a ridge suddenly appears in my shkval screen when I thought I was a good 300m above the ground. Most times I have the ability to throttle up and pitch forward, some times I lawn dart.

Weird. I mean a month ago I ended up doing a BACK FLIP while watching Shkval at high zoom :joystick: (I was going to prepare a HD vid about it for everybody to mock but fortunately the track wouldn't play back correctly or at all) but I don't even recall the last time I crashed because of vortex ring.

 

The method is simple: if the rate of descend doesn't increase during the first 5-10 seconds you set the collective, it won't increase ever. So take at least quick peaks at the VVI during that critical time. Every now and then correct the ROD using collective each time doing the correction by a smaller amount than before. Or simply use auto hover mode. Also consider changing the default minimum altitude on the RALT.

[power5]

I never claimed to be an expert pilot. :joystick::pilotfly::helpsmilie: I can do things that no others can though. They are usually just not very good things.

[Bucic]

:)

I forgot to add that I walked away from that back flip - by simply decreasing the collective all the way down I avoided rotor blades intersection.

[26-J39]

And it's described in the manual. Vortex is not necessarily a spiral. This is how 'our' vortex ring looks like

 

My post had nothing to do with the "vortex ring" it was regarding the anti-torque rotor. ;)

[Bucic]

My post had nothing to do with the "vortex ring" it was regarding the anti-torque rotor. ;)

Ah, sorry. It was a response to topdog's post :)

[Dejjvid]

Here's a short track of me making a ninja start. And some ninja 180 turns. This is as tight as i believe you can make them without permanently destroying your helicopter. You could make them without gaining any altitude at all, but they would be much wider.

 

And doing these tight turns in full speed is quite remarkable for a helicopter imo.

ninjaturn.trk

[power5]

Some good flying. Good control over the collective. Landing was a bit uh, rough though. :)