MISSILE EVASION (lots of feedback please!)

[HOKUM52]

BVR missile evasion.

im having trouble kinetically defeating missiles using,

A. the barrel roll

B. snaking

C. cross over

 

I,ve watched the videos of the the Su-27 perfoming A and B on youtube, and after much practice ( and i mean lots) i still fail ,and get slammed by the missile. I can only successfully perform these manuvers 1/8 launches.

I always watch the replay to see where i go wrong and im often only a small way out of dodging/ defeating the missile (missile speed about 600-700).

However when i try to correct my mistakes, by pulling a tighter turn or changing direction more dramtically all that i acheive it a bleed in speed until recovery is hopless if theres a second launch.

 

 

 

 

My requests:

• The videos on youtube (A and B) are good but i would appreicate a video for performing these manuveres from inside the cockpit (giving also some parameters for performing them).
  
• Any other techniques you can share.
  
• Any videos you know of from FF4 etc
  

My questions

• When fired at should i drop altitude immediatley or try to maintain altitude ( i know the air is thicker lower u go )
  
• Should i change direction dramatically or gradually.
  
• Should i avoid high angle of attacks (close range , long range?)
  
• How much should i rely on countermeasures.
  
• How important is this 10 clock 2 clock thing
  

Im a keen learner so ill be gratefull for any small details u might have. Much appreciated :o

Edited February 5, 2011 by HOKUM52

[asparagin]

Ok, I'll just point you in the right direction since your thematic is huge.

 

Barrel roll is not a good method for missile evasion, it has been discussed before, it doesn't work in real life, it did work in older versions of FC, but in the newer ones, doesn't work that good anymore.

 

Snaking, works when fired at long range, but is not as effective as beaming in bleeding missiles.

 

Cross over : don't know what that is. (orthogonal roll?)

 

Check forums for: beaming, also if you fly Su-27 you have to consider cranking , because you must keep your SARH missiles on target. And also last ditch maneuver, orthogonal roll (against Actives), but as you noticed by yourself, if you opponent launches a succession of missiles, well timed, you are screwed.

 

Conclusion: read the forum threads..

[Sulman]

It's extremely hard. Missiles in FC used to be easily defeated using a pull and roll and using the Beryoza as a cheat (it has a precise range countdown), but this doesn't really work anymore. Missiles in FC generally had a hard time in the vertical plane; I'm not sure if this is the case in FC2.

 

In theory, even if you can see the missiles (which for airborne BVR missiles is rightfully staggeringly difficult, unless they are used at close range) it's a tall order to outmaneuver them if they still have lots of energy.

 

When the AI gets the drop on you it's hard to do much but try and stay offensive; they maintain perfect SA and will keep shooting until you are down, so you need to force them defensive as soon as possible. The crank method does work well, but you're still gambling on their active homers missing and you will not have a perfect beam if you've still got them locked up.

 

Essentially if you had precise SA and complete awareness (labels) of enemy missiles, it may be possible to defeat them kinematically, but in theory if you're doing that you're already doing something wrong.

 

I find the American platforms with their active homers particularly trying to defeat in the '29A and SU27, but this is as it should be.

[Pilotasso]

Forget all about hot dogging. These kind of manoeuvres are for people who have lots of experience (gathered in years of trial and error) or already got the fight messed up. If you arent the former case, you wont want to be the latter either!

 

The trick is to stay out from the escape zone of incoming missiles, at about 10 miles or 20km (depends on altitude).

 

If you are outside your enemies NEZ then you can easily defeat his missiles by simply turn back when he fires. The missiles will simply drop to the floor because they cant reach you.

 

If you do this while your own missiles are already in NEZ you will always win, even if he somehow evades it, you got the initiative and he likely wont have an alternative but try run desperately. :) But remember, the range margin between your NEZ and his, will be very short, so the timing and your firing position (preferably above him) will be critical. Sounds complicated but its less than dodging missiles by hot dogging.

 

If you face multiple bandits you will want to have a wingman, or shoot at one of the enemies at long range to separate the formations apart to select the most vulnerable victim next.

Edited February 5, 2011 by Pilotasso

[Vekkinho]

Snaking works only if you have inbound missile launched at Rmax. AI flights usually do that but in MP you're no good with snaking.

 

Beaming is what you should do, it works in every LOMAC/FC/DCS version as well as IRL and is most effective non countermeasure way of defeating an inbound missile. How does it work?

 

Imagine a situation of having a bandit bearing 180, 30km, 6000m MSL, hot! He's at same alt as yours. He fires a missile from 25km. You snap heading 90 to place him and his missile at your 3 o'clock, accelerate to make missile pull more Gs for intercept course correction and dive 10°-15° to keep it above you. If missile/fighter radar looks down on you he'll have more trouble decluttering your plane from the terrain beneath you. You can add some chaff/flare into your actions depending on a missile type to make sure it spoofs. When missile comes near pull up/into the misile hard.

 

Works IRL and it the only technique of evasion that makes you recover to offensive aspect pretty quicky.

 

Turning away from the missile (dragging) is also useful but you'll lose a lot of energy hooking back into a bandit once you defeat the missle!

[HOKUM52]

thanks this is great. any recommendations 4 videos onn cranking etc,

btw i notice when i fire at an AI jet they often go into a very steep dive to the left or right . this makes sense that they are mixing with the ground clutter , however vekkinho u say to dive at 15 degrees this seems shallow.

I take it that the AI jets are not attempting beeming but some other maneuver.

i knew of beeming before but didnt relise it was the most common method

 

by crossover i meant this:

at about 1:40 he starts doing manuvers starting from the 10 / 2 clock position. this cant be beaming as its not at the 3 or 9 .?
Edited February 5, 2011 by HOKUM52

[asparagin]

manuvers starting from the 10 / 2 clock position. this cant be beaming as its not at the 3 or 9 .?

 

10/2 o'clock is cranking. You use this when you want to keep your lock and in the same time reduce closing speed.

 

In the video, he is fighting against a SARH missile, the missile was at 10 o'clock, but the SU-27 was at 9 o'clock. So he was actually beaming the enemy aircraft, because that was the radar emitting source for the missile guidance.

If you have a active missile inbound, that reached it's terminal phase (missile radar starts to track you), then it's better to beam the missile.

The "crossing" you can do effectively from a beaming or cranking position, beaming as always better but don't have radar lock.

Generally speaking beaming is a defensive position, while cranking is between defensive and offensive.

[HOKUM52]

thanks asparagin that clears it up nicely :] very quick replies from u guys (Y) i just been trying this all out and its really working. (looks good on the old 50 inch tv !!!)

heres a little nugget 4 ya

[asparagin]

very quick replies from u guys

 

I'm at work :D

[HOKUM52]

I'm at work :D

 

lmao,

just one or two more questions.

1.when beeming at 9/3 position im not expected to keep my lock?

2.i guess the next step is to imediatley relock ?.

3.whys it called beeming!?

4.when fired at is it sometimes useful to fire back and see who keeps there nerve or is this a waste of a misslie.

!!

Edited February 5, 2011 by HOKUM52

[GGTharos]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=49203&highlight=missile+evasion

[asparagin]

1.when beeming at 9/3 position im not expected to keep my lock?

 

No, because your radar cone doesn't cover 180°, when you crank, you are at your radar gimbal limit. E.g.: Su-27 has a cone of about 60° that is why, when you put the target at 10 o'clock (30°) you reached the gimbal limit.

 

2.i guess the next step is to imediatley relock ?.

 

After beaming, when you want to go offensive, yes.

 

3.whys it called beeming!?

 

It's called beaming. It comes from Doppler beaming. With beaming you are exploiting the Doppler effect. Beaming maybe because, the effect was first noticed on light beams (celestial bodies)? Maybe some else knows more precise.

 

4.when fired at is it sometimes useful to fire back and see who keeps there nerve or is this a waste of a missile.

 

Fire missiles, when you think they have chances to reach the target.

[HOKUM52]

excellent! thankn 4 the info this has greatly improved my gameplay and survival. (havin loads of fun here!!)

also thanks u GGtharos i'll have a look at that now.

cant wait to show my twin later, we'll be doin some serious ass kicking.

Edited February 5, 2011 by HOKUM52

[EtherealN]

It's called beaming. It comes from Doppler beaming. With beaming you are exploiting the Doppler effect. Beaming maybe because, the effect was first noticed on light beams (celestial bodies)? Maybe some else knows more precise.

 

Really? I always assumed it was due to the fact that you are placing the hostile emitter "abeam" of you (the 3/9), an old nautical term.

 

See: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/abeam

 

Sure you don't mean Notching, which inherited it's name from exploiting the Doppler Notch Gate in order to get yourself the same doppler return as background clutter and thereby get filtered out? Beaming a missile can be done no matter the altitude relationship between emitter and target (you basically drag the missile and, if range/speed permits, either make it run out of kinetic energy or out-gimbal it's seeker), while Notching requires that the emitter has a background for you to "hide" your radar return in.

[DarkFire]

One other thing that's been recently reported here and is very important to remember for missile evasion is that missile energy is NOT dependant on the speed of the launching aircraft. In other words, a missile launched at 10m altitude and 150kmh has exactly the same energy as one launched at 10,000m altitude at mach 2! Yes, this is a bug, or simply a feature that wasn't implemented for FC2.

 

What this means is that launching missiles at their maximum aerodynamic range, even against a non-evading head-on aspect ratio target, is completely pointless.

 

I'm not usually one to criticise ED, as I can envisage a scenario where high-end flight simms are the only sort of game that will be left on the PC - all the rest will be crap console ports.

 

However, not implementing missile energy being dependant on launch platform energy is to my mind a bit of an amateur error. Nope, I couldn't do any better, but come on, this is a very basic element if you're modelling A-A combat between fast movers.

[asparagin]

Really? I always assumed it was due to the fact that you are placing the hostile emitter "abeam" of you (the 3/9), an old nautical term.

 

Yes, that must be right EtherealN!

 

Sure you don't mean Notching, which inherited it's name from exploiting the Doppler Notch Gate in order to get yourself the same doppler return as background clutter and thereby get filtered out? Beaming a missile can be done no matter the altitude relationship between emitter and target (you basically drag the missile and, if range/speed permits, either make it run out of kinetic energy or out-gimbal it's seeker), while Notching requires that the emitter has a background for you to "hide" your radar return in.

 

Well, that's one way to do it. The other one is: beaming!

And that is why I put beaming in the same context with notching:

Flying 90° to the radar emitter will get you almost 0 relative speed to the enemy. Since the the radar uses the Doppler effect to track moving targets, you are at that point "in the notch".

Not correct?

[FLANKERATOR]

When fired at should i drop altitude immediatley or try to maintain altitude ( i know the air is thicker lower u go )

Depends on the actual situation, dodging missiles is way easier on deck because their tend to loose energy faster (tick air) , drawback is the lower you get the lower your own missiles range becomes. You have to adapt your altitude when dodging missiles to the actual situation which involves many considerations.

 

Should i change direction dramatically or gradually.

 

Again depends, if you get fired at close range, still out of the NEZ, best is to keep corner speed while performing a split S before extending full power.

 

If you realize that you are within the enemy NEZ, then you will have avoid going cold and prepare to dodge the missile(s) at close range.

 

generally speaking it best to stay at corner speed for the first move, only exception maybe is when you are performing a last ditch maneuver at very close range like the barrel roll.

 

 

 

Should i avoid high angle of attacks (close range , long range?)

 

similar to previous question?

 

How much should i rely on countermeasures.

 

counter measures are very useful and should be combined with dodging maneuvers for successful missiles defense. However use them only when the missile is close enough to "see" them.

make sure you stop releasing countermeasures when the missile gets very close (1 bar in a SPO for a fox3 for example) as it can cause a fatal proximity fusing.

 

How important is this 10 clock 2 clock thing.

Im a keen learner so ill be gratefull for any small details u might have. Much appreciated :o

 

Basic idea is to reduce closure with enemy while keeping an offensive position and providing guidance to your own missiles. It's called "cranking" and it's a cornerstone in BVR and early stage missile defense. While cranking you can easily "press/chase" or "pump".

[EtherealN]

And that is why I put beaming in the same context with notching:

Flying 90° to the radar emitter will get you almost 0 relative speed to the enemy. Since the the radar uses the Doppler effect to track moving targets, you are at that point "in the notch".

Not correct?

 

Both correct and incorrect:

Beaming in itself is simply to place the emitter at the 3/9-line. Notching is to put the emitter at the 3/9 while forcing the emitter into a look-down geometry. So you can think of notching as a further step from the basic beaming geometry.

 

If you and the hostile emitter is co-altitude or you are higher up, there will be no background doppler return for the hostile radar to be confused by. So these are really two different methods depending on initial geometry and your intended future prosecution of the offender, but they share the initial step of placing the emitter "abeam" of you.

[EtherealN]

However, not implementing missile energy being dependant on launch platform energy is to my mind a bit of an amateur error. Nope, I couldn't do any better, but come on, this is a very basic element if you're modelling A-A combat between fast movers.

 

Choose your words wisely... ;)

 

It's not an "amateur error", it's a concession to the fact that the missile model was developed with a flight model and hardware capacity where a lot of concessions had to be made. Basically, the hardware required a certain level of simplification in the model, and simply adding platform velocity to the missile at launch would in this case cause UFO's to happen.

 

The missile flight model will be updated/replaced in due time with a future DCS product.

Edited February 5, 2011 by EtherealN

[Vekkinho]

thanks this is great. any recommendations 4 videos onn cranking etc,

btw i notice when i fire at an AI jet they often go into a very steep dive to the left or right . this makes sense that they are mixing with the ground clutter , however vekkinho u say to dive at 15 degrees this seems shallow.

 

15 deg with full AB is enough! You don't wanna waste too much of your altitude (energy) 'cause as soon as you spoof inbound missile you'll retaliate. :)

 

Don't learn from AI when studying / training beaming evasion, they're messed up completely i.e. scripted, every beaming evasion performed by AI will be the same be it a C-130 or Su-27.

 

You must have seen an An-26 doing rolling scissors on you?!

[asparagin]

If you and the hostile emitter is co-altitude or you are higher up, there will be no background doppler return for the hostile radar to be confused by.

 

Yup, background is essential. If you only beam, then the doppler radar can't get your velocity signature but it can still get your reflection.

[GGTharos]

Sure it can get your velocity signature. The closure will simply be very close to your own ground-speed. When LOOKING DOWN, that small range of speeds around ground-closure speed is the notch, and anything found to be closing at those speeds is rejected as ground clutter.

[asparagin]

Sure it can get your velocity signature. The closure will simply be very close to your own ground-speed. When LOOKING DOWN, that small range of speeds around ground-closure speed is the notch, and anything found to be closing at those speeds is rejected as ground clutter.

 

Even better articulated. :thumbup:

[HOKUM52]

well i think 'whys it called beaming seemed to be the toughest question 4 u guys!.

thanks again to :FLANKERATOR, EtherealN, Vekkinho, asparagin and GGThargos! i thinks thats everyone in this thread lol

I find all these little details appetising and its really made a difference to my BVR tactics and thinking.

I heard that the f-4E doesnt have a look down shoot down capability?

Most of the fighters on lock on seem to but they can all be exploited by beaming or notching?(fingers crossed).

however can u prevent losing lock by matching your opponents altitude with so hes above the horizon relative to you?

[asparagin]

Most of the fighters on lock on seem to but they can all be exploited by beaming or notching?(fingers crossed).

however can u prevent losing lock by matching your opponents altitude with so hes above the horizon relative to you?

 

Only by notching!

Second is correct.