CCIP Invalid

[Sickdog]

Even if you've assigned SPI on the target, if your current steerpoint has an elevation higher than your altitude, you will still get CCIP invalid

 

I think I've been running into this issue a lot with the SP/MP CSAR mission. However, if that's the way it's "supposed" to work, I'm baffled. Are the designers of this fire control logic saying that in order to NOT get CCIP invalid when you are dropping on a target that you have made SPI, you must have the current steer point set at roughly the ground elevation? I would think the only steer points that should have ground elevations are takeoff and landing.

 

EDIT: UGH! OK, I thought I did enough research to solve my problem before posting this, but I'm good now. It was the same issue with the DTS not being selected with a cold start up. Just played CSAR again SP and played with that for first time, solved my issue. Thanks for the info StrongHarm, actually found the solution in another thread (maybe by you, can't remember).

Edited March 9, 2011 by Sickdog

[StrongHarm]

ASUP FUBAR

 

Really if you aren't getting target elevation from DTC, what's going on here is that your EGI is not fully in sync. This can be prevented by allowing your INS NAV to sync to 4.0, switching to NAV, then doing your IFFCC checks and DTC upload. You can tell if you have EGI inconsistencies in two ways that I know of:

 

1. Go to stat page on L MFD. On page 2 you'll see EGI. If EGI is yellow and has a DEGR indication next to it, that means you FUBARed the startup procedure.

 

2. Line three on the bottom right of HUD is 'Steerpoint Distance to Go / Target Elevation'. If your EGI is fully in sync you'll see something like 25.1/DTC (target elevation is being derived from DTC). In other words it's being updated dynamically from known elevations in the nav computer from EGI, depending on what your SPI is and elevation of current location. If it's not in sync you'll see 25.1/10000 (meaning your steerpoing is 25.1nm away and at 10k ft.)

 

ALL IS NOT LOST

If you did get impatient and FUBAR the startup procedure, all is not lost. Follow these steps to manually choose DTC as the Target Elevation Reference:

*On the UFC panel, press 'down' on the Data Rocker

*The value on line3 bottom right of HUD for Target Elevation, will flash

*Press 'down' on the SEL Rocker until the flashing value on line3 of the HUD shows DTC

 

If you want to make sure you're doing the startup procedures properly, I would suggest using paulrkiii's checklists (often mimicked but never matched). He's a RL Hawg mechanic (and pilot of the most excellent 1st Virtual Fighter Wing, 25th Virtual Fighter Squadron, as is yours truly.. hopefully very soon).

[Speed]

Well, NOT using DTS, my SPI might as well be on the moon, for all it matters in CCIP calculation. The only thing that gives me a correctly computed impact point is if I create a markpoint at the target I want to attack, and then reference that markpoint. I could set my SPI to my wingman or flight lead after the creation of the mark point if I wanted, and it wouldn't matter one iota.

 

WITH DTS, then the CCIP pipper seems pretty accurate unless the terrain is pretty uneven. So maybe you want to use elevation set by your current markpoint/steerpoint when bombing with CCIP in hilly terrain?

Edited March 9, 2011 by Speed

[StrongHarm]

WITH DTS, then the CCIP pipper seems pretty accurate unless the terrain is pretty uneven. So maybe you want to use elevation set by your current markpoint/steerpoint when bombing with CCIP in hilly terrain?

 

DTS should, near real time, calculate based on the current/target elevation. For instance, when you set a mark point you don't have to set the elevation. Why? Because it's pulling the elevation from the information stored in the NAV computer (EGI through DTS) to set the elevation automatically as soon as you store the mark point.

 

DTS Target Elevation Reference is like creating a markpoint every second. Perhaps if you're doing strafing runs in a mountain pass, you'll get CCIP Invalid often. But if you set your Target Reference to a markpoint 1000ft below the lowest elevation in your gun runs, you're going to miss quite often anyway.

[MadTommy]

Ok.. I've read through this thread, and now my head hurts a bit. I understand the basic principles of CCIP trying to compute a 'uphill' drop, and the SPI should be on the target not the steerpoint (if it is at 10,000"). I have used the DTC workaround...but am unsure if this is good practice.

 

I'm presently testing a mission in a mountainous region.. and having a few problems.

 

I have a couple of questions:

 

1. Is there a bug present?
    
   
2. If so what is the best work around.
    
   
3. if not can someone summaries 'best practice' procedures.
   

 

:music_whistling:

 

Thanks, and sorry if i should have understood this already..

[yeepee]

for the CCIP problem, just go here : http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1115789&postcount=19

[StrongHarm]

You didn't state your problem. Please clarify.

 

Ok.. I've read through this thread, and now my head hurts a bit. I understand the basic principles of CCIP trying to compute a 'uphill' drop, and the SPI should be on the target not the steerpoint (if it is at 10,000"). I have used the DTC workaround...but am unsure if this is good practice.

 

I'm presently testing a mission in a mountainous region.. and having a few problems.

 

I have a couple of questions:

 

1. Is there a bug present?
    
   
2. If so what is the best work around.
    
   
3. if not can someone summaries 'best practice' procedures.
   

 

:music_whistling:

 

Thanks, and sorry if i should have understood this already..

[MadTommy]

You didn't state your problem. Please clarify.

 

Thanks, I'll try again.

 

in my current mission i am getting Ivalid CCIP constantly unless i do one of two things.. create a mark point near my target or change my HUD setting to DTS. (What this does i do not fully understand)

 

In this mission the waypoints are high in the mountains.

 

I thought that if i use my target pod, mav seeker or hud square to set a point, ideally my target, as the SPI the CCIP computer would use that to calculate the impact point, not my bloody steerpont 5,000 feet above me.

 

As i said, to stop this i seem to have two options, set a markpoint or change my HUD to read DTS.

 

I have checked stat page on L MFD. On page 2 and my EGI is green and working correctly.

 

So what the hell is going on.. i'm just a bit confused

1. Is there a bug present?
   
2. If so what is the best work around.
   
3. if not can someone summaries 'best practice' procedures, or is what i'd doing correct?
   

Edited March 10, 2011 by MadTommy

[nomdeplume]

in my current mission i am getting Ivalid CCIP constantly unless i do one of two things.. create a mark point near my target or change my HUD setting to DTS. (What this does i do not fully understand)

 

My understanding is like this: the FCC has to have some way of determining 'ground level' so it can calculate the impact point. While the ballistic calculations are no doubt fiendishly complex, the principle is simple: assuming you release the weapon right now, trace its trajectory and determine when it reaches ground level. Presto, your impact point. Easy as pie, so long as you know the ground elevation.

 

The simplest way to do that is to have a fixed 'ground level', as if you're flying over an infinite flat tabletop. That's basically what the "steerpoint as ground level" method does: whatever the elevation of the SP is, is the height of the tabletop for the point-of-impact calculation.

 

So to get an accurate solution with that method on terrain of varying elevation, you need to set the SP to the same elevation as the target your prosecuting. That way when the pipper indicates the point of impact is on your target, it will be accurate. It won't be accurate for a target at any other elevation.

 

Since that's cumbersome, DTS replaces the tabletop with the elevation data stored in the computer. The impact calculation is pretty much the same, but rather than determining when the weapon will intersect the flat tabletop surface, you're checking if the weapon is intersecting the terrain at every given point along its trajectory, pulling the elevation data from the computer.

 

Obviously, that method is superior in every way except for one: complexity. If your stored elevation data is incorrect or missing, it can't calculate the impact point. So, I think the "steerpoint elevation as terrain elevation" method is provided as a fallback in case you can't rely on the DTS data.

 

I thought that if i use my target pod, mav seeker or hud square to set a point, ideally my target, as the SPI the CCIP computer would use that to calculate the impact point, not my bloody steerpont 5,000 feet above me.

The only way it can know the elevation of the SPI is to consult the stored data. If you've got the system drawing data from DTS, then there's no reason to care about the SPI's elevation in CCIP mode. If you're not drawing the data from DTS, then there's probably a good reason for it, so it doesn't make sense to try to use it at all. Hence, SP elevation.

 

Theoretically the IFFCC could determine the altitude of a target using the angle of the TGP and the ranging laser to determine distance, but I don't know if there's any way of actually doing that.

[Eddie]

No bug, as such. It's just a case of choosing the right option in the cockpit and setting up your avionics for task at hand.

 

It can be argued that the system should default to DTS mode rather than taking altitude from the steerpoint, but there is nothing wrong with the way things are implemented avionics wise.

 

It's a issue along the same lines of some switches (bleed air for example) defaulting to off on ramp start when IRL they are always on.

 

At least that is my understanding and view of the situation. Just add the switching the altitude source to DTS as part of your startup/fence in checks or where ever you feel most comfortable doing it.

[MadTommy]

Thank you very much... so.. as part of the 'start up procedure' I should be switching my HUD to DTS no matter what the terrain is.... and life is good as long as I have fully aligned and my data is stored correctly.

 

EDIT: Thanks eddie, you answered me as i typed & pondered.

Edited March 10, 2011 by MadTommy

[Laud]

Theoretically the IFFCC could determine the altitude of a target using the angle of the TGP and the ranging laser to determine distance, but I don't know if there's any way of actually doing that.

 

While I read your explanation (which is quite nice), I thought about the same question.

However, this wouldn't be available anyway for a bomb-run with Mk82s and without a Pod...

[StrongHarm]

MadTommy, you should be defaulting to DTS. Your startup sequence is FUBAR. Happens to me as well when I get in a hurry. Make sure you complete each step fully, in this order without taking shortcuts (condensed)

*Align to 4.0 and switch to NAV

*SIS switches and EAC

*Perform DTS upload

*HUD BIT Test

 

I haven't done testing to see which one of these items out of sequence causes TERef not to be default to DTS, but I know when I use this sequence it does default.

[MadTommy]

MadTommy, you should be defaulting to DTS. Your startup sequence is FUBAR. Happens to me as well when I get in a hurry. Make sure you complete each step fully, in this order without taking shortcuts (condensed)

*Align to 4.0 and switch to NAV

*SIS switches and EAC

*Perform DTS upload

*HUD BIT Test

 

I haven't done testing to see which one of these items out of sequence causes TERef not to be default to DTS, but I know when I use this sequence it does default.

 

Right, so if i correct my cold start up procedure i won't have to switch to DTS as it will be using it by default?

 

My start up procedure is definitely 'condensed', and i'm sure missing a step or three :P .. i'll do some testing. Thanks a lot.

[Smokin Hole]

If I ramp start, I do not have the problem the OP describes. If I runway start, I always do. This is true of both rockets and iron bombs.

 

This airplane was designed to bomb perfectly well without a TGP and without a designated SPI. There are times on the battlefield when pilots just don't have the time to bother with that stuff. They just want to drop on what they see and leave.

 

I am going way out on a limb here to proclaim that, in the real jet, this problem most likely does not occur. SPI is for CCRP. CCIP is for see-and-drop- (or) -launch. The jet knows the elevation of all terrain in its database so why would it "care" what elevation the current SPI happens to be? Same is true of the cannon. I've flown around and had the cannon pipper obviously aiming at a point hundreds of feet below the actual target. For the defenders of the current arrangement, this may be a case of loving the sim so much that sim logic trumps reality.

[PlainSight]

If you start from ramp, check your escape maneuver settings in weapon profiles. It's set to off by default. Training mission said this can cause ccip invalid.

[Smokin Hole]

...I've flown around and had the cannon pipper obviously aiming at a point hundreds of feet below the actual target. For the defenders of the current arrangement, this may be a case of loving the sim so much that sim logic trumps reality.

 

Quoting myself. I'm going to backtrack on this statement a bit. I THINK what I may have been doing is UFC paging out of DTS. Until I read this thread I was never even aware that the page button changed the database elevation. It's an easy mistake to make that will completely screw everything up if done accidentally.

[skouras]

push M a few times and it'll go away

THATS RIGHT MATE SELECT NAV MODE

THEN YOU ARE READY TO GO

[bartleby]

Does coordinate ranging mode figure into this in any way?

[Smokin Hole]

No. Just ensure you have "DTS" stated on your HUD and you will never see this message when airborn. Also, be very careful when using the UFC page keys. It is extremely easy to leave the DTS altitude database.

[bartleby]

No. Just ensure you have "DTS" stated on your HUD and you will never see this message when airborn. Also, be very careful when using the UFC page keys. It is extremely easy to leave the DTS altitude database.

 

Ah, good call with DTS setting. That solved some stuff.

 

What exactly is coordinate ranging, though? The manual is sort of unclear on that, and search didn't turn up much.

[Shootist]

OK. Strongharm is probably gonna want to spank me for this one but, as I am still a kid (WAY metaphorically) at this game I'll tell you what seemed to work for me. I had CCIP invalid when trying to drop a dumb bomb in CCIP and switched off the TGP and Laser. Then I just followed the line down on the target and when the circle was there, did the manual release. Worked great for cluster bombs.

[StrongHarm]

No shame in going primitive. I like to do it myself. Sometimes I'll go guns on the fixed cross the whole mission just to reconnect with my sweet Hog. Prowling with the low slow growl.. something to be said for it.

[Shootist]

Speaking of going guns. Whats the best way to go after helos or aircraft? The floating pipper doesn't seem to be the trick. And a tracer or two sure would help to point the way.

[Temphage]

I found using the gun in A/A mode to be extremely difficult... the best thing you can do is to fire in EXTREMELY short bursts, as it doesn't take much 30mm to blow up anything in the sky. I mean literally tapping into PAC-2 so your gun farts a bit. If your burst lands on target, CM should be enough to severely damage the hostile aircraft.