Can/Will ED consider reworking the way HUD is displayed

[Kuky]

I was playing last night (well actually it was a whole afternood/evening/night) and after changing the DefaultSnapViews.lua and leaving the pilots point of view to 0 values I have found it is actually more suited to where the pilots head should be in the first place... and to my amaisement with this point of view I actually get the mirrors to see where they should, to just the rear of the canopy, slightly left/right and above... and it looks awesome... BUT... the HUD is now completely unreadable because the view in the cockpit has been moved backward from default position and most of the HUD simbology is lost.

 

I have tinkered a fair bit more afterwards (which is why I spent the whole afternoon/evening/night) trying to adjust the HUD simbology to fit the HUD constraints again... and I've had some success but not all of it as I can't figure out some of the simbology how it's displayed and lua files configured.

 

What all of this has made me realise is that the way HUD simbology is "rendered" in game is very basic and does not represent how HUD simbology should be changed in respect to pilots view in cockpit (when you move around inside the cockpit). What's missing is the scaling of the HUD image... and the solution would be to instead all of the HUD simbology be drawn on the main render screen, to have a new object in the game or cockpit and have the HUD simbology presented on that. This way if I move my head closer to the cockpit the HUD will be closed as well and it's simbology and would make the more realistic pilot head position actually usable without having to adjust many files manually (like I did yesterday... and now it reminds me of all the manual adjustments I had to make to have multiplayed menus display on main screen only).

 

If some of you disagree with me and say that HUD actually does look exactly like in game and that if in real life you move your head all the way back to the seat you are not able to see all of the HUD simbology, then can that person please show an image of any HUD of any aircraft with different distance from the HUD to support this claim as I personally don't see that it should work like that.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Kuky

[Cali]

From what I remember it didn't change at all. But that was a few years ago and my memory isn't the best.

[Nate--IRL--]

<Grabs popcorn....> :)

 

Nate

[Kuky]

<Grabs popcorn....> :)

 

Nate

 

I am not here for your amusement :music_whistling:

 

j/k :smilewink:

[GGTharos]

http://www3.rockwellcollins.com/products/cs/br/avionics-systems/hgs/system-overview/hud-basics/index.html

 

http://www.davi.ws/avionics/TheAvionicsHandbook_Cap_4.pdf

 

Also, I might be remembering incorrectly, but ED's A-10C SME's confirmed that moving back causes symbology to be lost.

 

I was playing last night (well actually it was a whole afternood/evening/night) and after changing the DefaultSnapViews.lua and leaving the pilots point of view to 0 values I have found it is actually more suited to where the pilots head should be in the first place... and to my amaisement with this point of view I actually get the mirrors to see where they should, to just the rear of the canopy, slightly left/right and above... and it looks awesome... BUT... the HUD is now completely unreadable because the view in the cockpit has been moved backward from default position and most of the HUD simbology is lost.

 

I have tinkered a fair bit more afterwards (which is why I spent the whole afternoon/evening/night) trying to adjust the HUD simbology to fit the HUD constraints again... and I've had some success but not all of it as I can't figure out some of the simbology how it's displayed and lua files configured.

 

What all of this has made me realise is that the way HUD simbology is "rendered" in game is very basic and does not represent how HUD simbology should be changed in respect to pilots view in cockpit (when you move around inside the cockpit). What's missing is the scaling of the HUD image... and the solution would be to instead all of the HUD simbology be drawn on the main render screen, to have a new object in the game or cockpit and have the HUD simbology presented on that. This way if I move my head closer to the cockpit the HUD will be closed as well and it's simbology and would make the more realistic pilot head position actually usable without having to adjust many files manually (like I did yesterday... and now it reminds me of all the manual adjustments I had to make to have multiplayed menus display on main screen only).

 

If some of you disagree with me and say that HUD actually does look exactly like in game and that if in real life you move your head all the way back to the seat you are not able to see all of the HUD simbology, then can that person please show an image of any HUD of any aircraft with different distance from the HUD to support this claim as I personally don't see that it should work like that.

Edited April 14, 2011 by GGTharos

[Le0kong]

<Grabs popcorn....> :)

 

Nate

 

But this is going to be a re-run... i already watched this movie :D: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1111465

[S77th-konkussion]

Maybe ED could ****simply**** put in user- adjustable mirrors instead? :smilewink:

[Kuky]

But this is going to be a re-run... i already watched this movie :D: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1111465

 

sorry but I did not watch this movie before :cry:

[Krebs20]

I'm not home and posting off my cell phone so please forgive me on this very generic reply. Look into adjusting your Feild of veiw. I can see the full his without my face chin resting on the hud. Only thing I changed was field of view.

[Weta43]

..

The pilot display unit (PDU) is located within the cockpit to allow a pilot positioned at the cockpit Design Eye Position (DEP) to view HUD information which is precisely positioned with respect to the outside world. This allows, for example, the computer-generated and displayed horizon line to overlay the real-world horizon in all phases of flight.

The cockpit DEP is defined as the optimum cockpit location that meets the requirements of FAR 25.773.4 and 25.777.5

From this location the pilot can easily view all relevant head-down instruments and the

outside world scene through the aircraft windshield, while being able to access all required cockpit controls.

The HUD “eyebox,” is always positioned with respect to the cockpit DEP, allowing pilots to fly the aircraft using the HUD from the same physical location as a non-HUD-equipped aircraft would be flown.

[Kuky]

The FoV is fine... it affects the whole image in game (cockpit/HUD/external view)... when I changed the head position to 0 (default is little lower and moved forward) the HUD is closer and simbology fits the HUD no matter what FoV you use... but with pilot point of view reset to zero, which I believe fits much better, the mirrors also show what they should... only the HUD is now 1/2 visible.

[Weta43]

I've hacked my default position to where I think the cockpit Design Eye Position is. I find it more natural there, and have accepted that I have to move my 'head' around to see all the HUD

[Kuky]

I've changed mine a bit... ratio is about the same and some simbology I've reduced in size, I'll post a screenshot later tonight when I get home...

[hassata]

Try Peter's values from, "3. Default Cockpit view with centered HUD."

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1169138&postcount=72

[Kuky]

I tried his values, didn't quite like it as it has too much FoV and also still doesn't solve my wish/issue to see stuff in the mirrors that I think should be there... only by moving the head position in the cockpit can adjust that... and once I moved the head position little backward and up (actually to zero values) and set my FoV back to 60° everything looked great... I could see the wingman in the mirrors and I could see him if he was behind and little above me... which is where I think mirrors should be set to look at anyway, that's what they are there for... but then 1/2 the HUD simbology is lost. I compensated for this repositioning by scaling down the HUD a bit and for the most part it works well (but man it takes time to find all the right values and adjust them), but now again I find myself thinking if I have gone in the wrong way and made things less realistic.

 

I checked few of those earlier posts but most if not all of them discuss readability of HUD font and I don't have issue with that, in fact I scaled it down a bit more now and I can still read it (maybe these people need glasses and/or larger monitors?). Anyway, read Eddie's post and it got me thinking:

 

"The HUD image is not "on the glass" it is in space focused out to infinity therefore you can't move closer to it"

 

so thinking again about what I asked ED to do is actually not right... the HUD projection is actually fine, I am now just questioning where the correct default pilot head position should be and wether in this possition all of the HUD simbology should be visible on the HUD?

 

Now that I have taken more attention to this, to me the default pilot position seems too far close to the HUD... damnit... if that's how it is I will have to accept it but would also like to hear from real pilot(s) (you can have someone else give this "statement" and hide your identity :D ) if when they move their head on the seat they can see the HUD simbology or is it 1/2 gone like in this sim?

 

I also wonder about fighter aircraft... they need to have heading, speed, altitude and all other HUD simbology in dogfight at all times, and it's hard to imagine than when they need to pul G's they keep their head forward in order to read the HUD... that just can't be. So going from this theory I am assuming that for any combat aircraft the pilot must see the HUD information in this position and that this position is the default pilot position to which the HUD is adjusted.

 

Sorry if I'm being too annoying... just need to sort this out

 

PS: I have a theory about alient and religion... does anyone want to hear it?

[GGTharos]

Kuky, you will notice that the pilots lean forward for gunnery and some maneuvers.

 

In general, when you're just flying about you shouldn't need to see most of the HUD. I believe (I could be wrong though) that in the Hog it might not even have been meant to be used as a primary flight instrument.

 

If you look at the F-15E HUD - well never mind, I saw one from all the locations you have your head in and I'll tell you right now THAT HUD is gigantic. The A-10 one looks small to me, but I've not seen a real one.

 

Also for dogfighting, if you're looking at your HUD you're looking in the wrong place ... a lot of flying is done with eyes out of the pit.

 

In any case, there is one thing that DCS does not (probably cannot) simulate, and that is binocular vision, which CAN affect how much 'width' of the HUD you seat any one time when you move your head laterally left/right.

[effte]

If some of you disagree with me and say that HUD actually does look exactly like in game and that if in real life you move your head all the way back to the seat you are not able to see all of the HUD simbology, then can that person please show an image of any HUD of any aircraft with different distance from the HUD to support this claim as I personally don't see that it should work like that.

 

Instead of a chase for photos, how about you finding a technical description of how a HUD system works supporting your claim?

 

You will not be able to find one. The technical descriptions are easily found on the net and they all show that it is modelled correctly. The DEP is the only point which can be argued here, and there we have plenty of photos showing pilots moving in close to the HUD when employing weapons.

 

Kuky, you will notice that the pilots lean forward for gunnery and some maneuvers.

 

In general, when you're just flying about you shouldn't need to see most of the HUD. I believe (I could be wrong though) that in the Hog it might not even have been meant to be used as a primary flight instrument.

 

You are not wrong. It is right there in the (real aircraft) manual that the information in the HUD is not to be used as primary reference for flying the aircraft.

 

Cheers,

Fred

Edited April 14, 2011 by effte
3rd language...

[KLaFaille]

The way these systems are constructed and work, it doesn't matter if you are 6 feet or 6 inches from the HUD, the projected image will remain the same size.

[Weta43]

I ended up at this - I looked at pics of RL pilots in the plane, and tried to get the viewpoint about where their pov must sit.

Tighter view is the default, and the wide is what I've set the max FOV to.

Like I said - seems comfortable & a good view out while in that position, and to see the bits of the HUD I can't see from there (mostly the top), I just move :-)

[MBot]

The primary problem with the HUD is that in game we have just one PoV (the camera) while in RL we have two eyes some distance appart. Two eyes vs. one means that the size of the projector glass is seen bigger (in degrees), therfore the complete HUD symbology fits. In game we have only one camera, which has the be moved closer to the glass in order to increase it's angular size for the HUD projections to fit completely.

 

P.S.: I have also moved my default head position further back. I think I have found a good compromise between a natural view and visible HUD data. To fire the gun I have to lean in bit, but that feels quite natural with TrackIR.

Edited April 14, 2011 by MBot

[Kuky]

Here's what I have after yesterdays reset of pilots head position and tinkering with HUD simbology lua files

 

[Kuky]

I ended up at this - I looked at pics of RL pilots in the plane, and tried to get the viewpoint about where their pov must sit.

Tighter view is the default, and the wide is what I've set the max FOV to.

Like I said - seems comfortable & a good view out while in that position, and to see the bits of the HUD I can't see from there (mostly the top), I just move :-)

 

Hey Weta, can you post the values you have from this screenshot... I am wondering what you need to se to see wings in the mirrors like in your screenshot

[Weta43]

Snap[11][13] = {} -- Default cockpit view

Snap[11][13]["y_trans"] = 0.03

Snap[11][13]["x_trans"] = 0.12

Snap[11][13]["hAngle"] = 0

Snap[11][13]["viewAngle"] = 82.0

Snap[11][13]["vAngle"] = -11

Snap[11][13]["rollAngle"] = 0

Snap[11][13]["z_trans"] = 0

--[[

Default cockpit view

y_trans = -0.041336805555555564

x_trans = 0.36

hAngle = 0

viewAngle = 75.0

vAngle = -23

--]]

[Bushmanni]

The HUD needs to be focused to infinity in order to minimize parallax. Parallax happens when your HUD focus distance is different than target distance. If your HUD focus distance is 10m and your target is at 400m and you move your head from center line to the right 10cm, your sight appears to move to the left 3,9m in regards to the target. If the sight is focused to 400m it doesn't appear to move at all no matter how much you move your head. If it's focused to infinity it seems to move 10cm to the right. When focused to infinity the parallax is always equal to the amount of your eye points offset from center line. Less than 20cm error in aiming point due to head movement doesn't matter when shooting at ground vehicles and aircraft.