How to task an AFAC on randomised targets (i.e. targets that might not exist...)

[Bahger]

I have an AFAC tasked via "FAC Engage Target" on five targets in sequence at the same waypoint. Only two of these targets will show up in the mission, depending on a random dice-roll.

 

At the moment, I can't even raise the FAC on the radio, so I'm thinking of re-making the unit and its route, orders and WP orders. Before I do, does anyone have a suggestion, apart from the above, sledgehammer approach, ro get the AFAC to work with the target randomisation? I want only to create one AFAC, not five separate units synchronised with the randomisation conditions.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Bahger

[Insanatrix]

If you just give him the FAC role without specifying targets using FAC engage, He should give you targets that he detects and see's. I normally try to use that route, however it seems to be broken in the last patch. I tried it in a mission with Panzertard and he as well seems to think something is wrong so it should be getting looked at. They also need to implement some sort of target prioritization. I've had the JTAC give me a target 2km away while a enemy group is beating the piss out of friendly armor. It seems that there is no way for it to prioritize based on threat level, it just gives you random groups or groups you specify using FAC Engage Advanced Waypoint Action.

[Druid_]

Maybe DCS is having a logic fit here. As each of your units is activated set a flag e.g. 1-5. In your FAC Engage Target Condition tick user flag set x.

Don't know if this will work. The only other workaround would be to have mutiple FACs of which only one will be activated linked to the units that are randomly activated.

Strange you can't reach him on the radio (do you have any other FACs active at the ame time?).

[Bahger]

Now that's an elegant solution, Druid. I will try it, although I have a gut feeling that there may be an obstacle*.

 

The multiple FAC solution occurred to me but it seems like overkill when you'd expect the logic to be available to accomplish this with one FAC unit (...a dangerous assumption, I know.)

 

Not sure why he won't respond on the radio. I know the sim is fussy about where those "Waypoint/Advanced/Perform Command/Set Frequency" orders go in the waypoint order of priority and it's not always possible to alter those priorities after other orders have been entered. I had a non-communicating AFAC in my last mission and managed to fix that, so hopefully I will this time, too.

 

*Edit: Yeah, the obstacle is that there is no "or" operator in waypoint commands, so I'd still have to task each target separately. Conditioning it by flag might help the sim avoid a logic meltdown, but it's still five target taskings with only two targets due to appear. I have so little faith that it'll work that, for the time being, I've set a generalized FAC command (with orbit) and it'll be up to the player to prioritise targets. If there is a good MO to get the AFAC to work with randomised targets using "FAC Attack Target", I'm all ears. BTW, soes "Visible" mean that the FAC always has LOS to the target?

Edited June 15, 2011 by Bahger

[EvilBivol-1]

Here is a simple and dirty example of what I think might work for your scenario. In my test, three of the five targets appeared and the AFAC called out all three. I think the trick is to use Enroute Task FAC orders instead of Task FAC orders. Using Enroute Tasks, the AI actively searches for targets and assigns what it can find.

AFAC-test.miz

Edited June 15, 2011 by EvilBivol-1

[Bahger]

Thanks, EB-1. Will look at your .miz now, emulate and report back.

 

Edit: Interim report: Without yet having the opportunity to test the results, I emulated your AFAC tasking with the following differences:

 

- Eliminated the general FAC command from WP 0 (and therefore from all WPs) as I do not want it to conflict with WP-specific FAC orders.

- I set the FAC tasking to start at the first of a pair of racetrack orbit WPs, at 20,000ft (to avoid SA-9s).

- I set the flight's radio frequency (45 FM) as the first entry at each WP. "Orbit" is the sencond order at the first orbit/FAC WP, then the four FAC taskings. In the other orbit WP, the radio frequency and orbit listings have been demoted to the bottom of the order and are unmovable.

 

I know it's probably not necessary to place a radio frequency order at every WP but doing so appeared to cure a problem with FAC comms in another mission. I also suspect that the order of tasking is significant but do not always understand the logic.

 

I hope this works. Comments?

Edited June 16, 2011 by Bahger

[Ripcord]

Bahger, how did you resolve the problem to contacting the AFAC on the radio?

 

I am really not understanding that at all -- shouldn't the AFAC come under the JTAC comms menu?

[EvilBivol-1]

I hope this works. Comments?

It's going to be difficult to say without seeing the mission and having it to test. If you wish, you can email it to me to take a look (see email address in my profile).

I am really not understanding that at all -- shouldn't the AFAC come under the JTAC comms menu?

Yes, it does. It functions the same way.

[Nate--IRL--]

Yes, it does. It functions the same way.

 

Ripcord, note the AFAC will not transmit Data to your TAD - It doesn't have the capability.

 

Nate

[Bahger]

Thanks, Nate, I will email it to you. It's a really promising mission, with a certain Swiss-watch complexity, but it's testing out fine apart from teething problems with the AFAC flight. I will finish the briefing and then get it off to you.

 

Ripcord, I believe that the unit's COMMS menu is for UHF (i.e. in-flight) frequencies. I was told that to get a FAC flight to broadcast on its briefed frequency, you have to set it under WP/Advanced. If I'm mistaken, devs, please correct. I'm not a noob in either mission design or FAC/AFAC usage but I always have to finesse it before it works as intended.

[Nate--IRL--]

Thanks, Nate, I will email it to you.

 

Eh... not to me please, to EvilBivol-1 :)

 

Nate

[Bahger]

Ripcord, note the AFAC will not transmit Data to your TAD - It doesn't have the capability.

 

Nate

Are you sure?? I have received the red datalink TAD triangle from AFAC units before, I'm sure of it...

[Bahger]

Eh... not to me please, to EvilBivol-1 :)

 

Nate

 

Whoops, sorry, got it. Thanks for the offer, Bivol.

[Nate--IRL--]

Are you sure?? I have received the red datalink TAD triangle from AFAC units before, I'm sure of it...

 

You may have previously, but in .8 units that do not have ELPRS can't transmit datalimk target info.

 

Nate

[EvilBivol-1]

Nate, in the release version of 1.1.0.8, A-10C is equipped with ELPRS and will transmit data.

 

I was told that to get a FAC flight to broadcast on its briefed frequency, you have to set it under WP/Advanced.

That's true for ground units, whose freq. can only be set in the Advanced Actions panel. An Air Group's frequency can be set in the standard Air Group Properties panel. Default freq. for AI air groups is 124 MHz. If you want the AI flight to stay on that freq. for the duration of the mission, you don't need to do anything in the Advanced Actions panel. However, if you want the air group to switch to another freq. in the mission, you can use the Set Frequency command action to set the desired freq. But make sure to set a freq. in the VHF/AM radio band (116-151 MHz). That's probably the reason you can't bring up the AFAC in your mission. Not sure why it only works in the VHF/AM radio band, but perhaps because the programmers reserved UHF for player flight (default 251 MHz) and VHF/FM for comms with ground units.

 

I also suspect that the order of tasking is significant but do not always understand the logic.

Yes, the order of actions in the actions list (calling them tasks is confusing, because a Task is a kind of action, as is Enroute Task, Command and Option) determines the order in which the AI performs them. I.e. the AI goes down the action list and performs the actions in order. If one can't be performed, it moves to the next in the list. You can force-prioritize the actions using the Priority setting. This way an action at the bottom of the list can be set to the highest execution priority and will be performed (or at least evaluated for execution) first. Edited June 16, 2011 by EvilBivol-1

[Bahger]

This is very useful info, Bivol, and will save me a lot of needless trial and error, many thanks. I never realised that it was iffy to use FM frequencies for non-ground FAC units, i.e. AFACs. I've been setting an AM freq as a common package freq, monitored by all units, and an FM freq for AFAC so that all flights can monitor that simultaneously. Just to confirm: Should I set both package common and AFAC on the same band? I will if I have to.

 

As for the order of actions -- thanks for the correction -- I'm going to do what you did in the test mission and leave all the AFAC actions at 0 (highest priority), hoping that there will be no conflict with the "Orbit" and "Set Frequency" actions at the same WP. (As I mentioned before, the frequency action at each WP is probably not needed but I want to get the basic comms working first then I'll scale back via a process of elimination).

[EvilBivol-1]

Just to confirm: Should I set both package common and AFAC on the same band? I will if I have to.

Yup, I think you have to do that, since VHF/AM is the only band you can set for AI air groups. Either that, or have a dedicated channel for AFAC, but other flights will not be heard while tuned into the AFAC channel. It might be interesting to have all package flights set a new channel when entering a combat area as part of the "fence in" check and this could be where you have everyone tune into the AFAC's freq.

 

As for the order of actions -- thanks for the correction -- I'm going to do what you did in the test mission and leave all the AFAC actions at 0 (highest priority), hoping that there will be no conflict with the "Orbit" and "Set Frequency" actions at the same WP.

I didn't make any changes in the priority settings in my test mission. To be honest, I'm not sure how custom priority logic is implement now and I think it has changed since earlier versions and may not even be functional according to what I'm seeing in my tests now. Since the default priority is 0, I don't think it does anything, unless there is another action with a higher priority value. If everything is set to 0, the actions are just performed in their listed order, which is fine for the purposes of our AFAC actions. Exactly what happens when you change the priority value is a little unclear to me based on my tests in the current version. Will have to clarify with the devs.

[Druid_]

If I remember correctly the priority number only applies to the order in which you want your EN-Route Tasks to execute & not to any other groups i.e. Perform Task, Perform Command & Set Option.

 

The problem is that the AFAC tends to assign out of order since he will usually detect the closest target & once done so will execute the En-route task 'FAC - Engage group' associated with that target.

 

What would be nice is if the AFAC searched for each target as set in the priority list. If he didn't detect the highest priority target he would then move on to the next highest priority target as set in the priority list.

 

Sort of makes the whole priority system redundant imho. Cant provide the test miz I had showing this atm as away from PC but try setting up 2 targets with 'Engage Target' priority 0 & 1 in the open fairly close together. Move your AFAC around after each run so that the AFAC is closer to one target than the other & you'll see what I mean.

 

Badger, in my tests the AFAC can assign targets on UHF or VHF (AM) freqs. If say you set him up in GUI with 124 he will only transmit on that freq (e.g. 'passing WP 1') & act as a AFAC on that freq. If you place an advanced tab set freq 255 AM then its the same as if you had put 255 in the place of 124. Think of it like this, the AFAC only has one radio set that can transmit/receive on a AM freq.

[EvilBivol-1]

What would be nice is if the AFAC searched for each target as set in the priority list. If he didn't detect the highest priority target he would then move on to the next highest priority target as set in the priority list.

 

Sort of makes the whole priority system redundant imho. Cant provide the test miz I had showing this atm as away from PC but try setting up 2 targets with 'Engage Target' priority 0 & 1 in the open fairly close together. Move your AFAC around after each run so that the AFAC is closer to one target than the other & you'll see what I mean.

Yes, I am seeing the same thing - AFAC self-prioritizes targets regardless of action priority setting.

 

Badger, in my tests the AFAC can assign targets on UHF or VHF (AM) freqs. If say you set him up in GUI with 124 he will only transmit on that freq (e.g. 'passing WP 1') & act as a AFAC on that freq. If you place an advanced tab set freq 255 AM then its the same as if you had put 255 in the place of 124. Think of it like this, the AFAC only has one radio set that can transmit/receive on a AM freq.

UHF freq. does not work on my end.

[Druid_]

UHF freq. does not work on my end.

Sounds painful. :smilewink: Sure it did in an earlier ver, thanks for the heads up.

[Bahger]

OK, well I just tested the mission one last time with the AFAC on 45 FM; this was before I read Druid's and Bivol's final confirmation that the AFAC can only transmit targets on AM. For the first time I heard his position reports but when I tried checking in for tasking there was nothing to identify him in the JTAC radio menu...odd, no? The next thing I need to do, obviously, is put the AFAC on an AM freq once and for all and leave it there; hopefully this will make the thing work, as I'm pretty sure my implementation of the FAC actions in the appropriate WP/Advanced menu is correct (and corresponds with Bivol's test .miz). It's possible that my "Orbit" actions interfere with the JTAC logic. I'm posting the .miz here in case anyone sees a red flag indicating obvious user error.

 

Bivol, your suggested SOP for using the JTAC freq (once I get it working) for package common with the push as part of the fence-in is great and I will implement this when I fly the mission with my squadron (the 1st VFW).

 

It's really good of you to take an interest, Bivol, and, as always, I appreciate your expertise, Druid, which is far superior to mine. I'm especially grateful in this case, as the .miz has real promise, I feel, because I've got a Hornet SEAD, Chinook helo drops and a fairly complex matrix of synchronised randomisation via .lua scripting working pretty smoothly; all I really need to do now is get the AFAC to work.

 

(Well, that's not quite true, my last Condition, which throws up a warning from the Russians if any Blue coalition member strays into Russian airspace as defined by 3 trigger zones, does not fire...might you take a quick look at the logic?)

 

Here is the .miz. The briefing is still incomplete but you'll get the idea.

 

Thanks again. This thread may be very useful for intermediate-to-advanced mission makers, as it will hopefully clear up misconceptions about JTAC implementation and highlight glitches that need to be worked around.

 

(Bivol, if you'd still prefer me to email it to you, let me know and I will do so).

Incursion_15.miz

[Nate--IRL--]

Nate, in the release version of 1.1.0.8, A-10C is equipped with ELPRS and will transmit data.

.

 

Doh! Of course it can - I was thinking of the Predator - I forgot about the A-10.

 

Nate

[Ripcord]

Now this is a really very informative thread, lots of good gouge here on the AFAC. I will need to remember this one to refer back to. Thanks to all for the good responses.

 

Ripcord

[MadTommy]

UHF freq. does not work on my end.

 

I've not had an issue with AFAC on UHF.

 

In fact it's what i use: e.g VHF for ATC, Tanker etc, UHF: AFAC & SEAD, FM: JTAC (ground forces)

 

But some interesting and useful posts here regarding Radio use. I think i need to review radio use. :)

[Bahger]

Well, I fixed it. The AFAC now works, after a fashion. It tasks the correct targets, which is impressive because there are lots of similar targets in the AO but sometimes it says "tasking unavailable". Maybe I'll try it with the "Visible" option checked in the WP/Advanced/En Route/FAC attack target menu...

 

And the Russian warning zones are working, too. When I have finished the briefing and hidden all the zones/Red targets, etc., I will upload the .miz in what will essentially be a final Beta.

 

It would be interesting to know what you think of that "Visible" option.