Why Steam is NOT the answer

[Buzpilot]

Though, seeing as you're Norwegian... You are not in the right territory to complain about high prices.

 

Doesn't mean that I'm stupid enough to pay too much :)

I even save more from shopping here; http://uk.gamesplanet.com/

And thats only for a key, still have to register and download it in Steam.

[EtherealN]

Picked up another example for you:

 

iPad 2 16GB WLAN:

apple.com: $499 US

apple.no: 3890:- NOK ($706 US)

apple.de: €479 ($685 US)

 

This is a better example than a Big Mac, since in this case all the products irrespective of sales point are produced by the same company in the same location (Foxconn, China), sold by the same company (Apple), whereas with McDonalds it's local businesses buying franchise rights and often purchasing local produce.

 

Basically: if you don't like the price, you don't have to buy it. But to say that it's all about some conversion that they're being greedy about you're just misinformed and repeating the statement is to misinform others. If you want cheap prices - move somewhere cheap. That really is the bottom line and there's nothing strange with it. Of course, you might complain that you'll get correspondingly lower salaries if you make the move (such as when moving from Norway to Sweden, f.ex), but that is the entire point. :)

 

So Steam is NOT doing a "Euro Scam". There is no Scam. There is "economics".

[Buzpilot]

Picked up another example for you:

 

iPad 2 16GB WLAN:

apple.com: $499 US

apple.no: 3890:- NOK ($706 US)

apple.de: €479 ($685 US)

 

This is a better example than a Big Mac, since in this case all the products irrespective of sales point are produced by the same company in the same location (Foxconn, China), sold by the same company (Apple), whereas with McDonalds it's local businesses buying franchise rights and often purchasing local produce.

 

Basically: if you don't like the price, you don't have to buy it. But to say that it's all about some conversion that they're being greedy about you're just misinformed and repeating the statement is to misinform others. If you want cheap prices - move somewhere cheap. That really is the bottom line and there's nothing strange with it. Of course, you might complain that you'll get correspondingly lower salaries if you make the move (such as when moving from Norway to Sweden, f.ex), but that is the entire point. :)

 

 

So Steam is NOT doing a "Euro Scam". There is no Scam. There is "economics".

 

For a 'reason' ,Steam has put Norway into Euro region. Norway is not a member of EU, any second language is English, so it should be either UK or US like it was before. Anyways, I said I could get it lot cheaper in a local store too. So to me it sure smells like scam.:mad: Or really bad economics, if you ask me, and probably lot of others.

And for the 'Hardware pricing' in Norway, we have much better consumer protection, warranty and such. So it has always been normal to pay extra. But that includes a higher 'service' to us.

Edited June 19, 2011 by Buzpilot

[tusler]

Well all I can tell you is I have no idea how my account got stolen.

I have scanned my system with Spy-bot S&D and with an updated edition of Malwarebytes as well as an online and offline antivirus scanner and my system shows clean.

I have not answered any emails from steam in my account I use for steam.

I like others "in the steam forums" (Source) received no message about anything other than my primary steam account has been changed.

I did not answer the email but went to steam and tried to log on and sure enough it will not let me log on or change my setting. The user ID I was using is completely gone.

I then went directly to steam and put in a trouble ticket about my account being stolen. I have reviewed the primary email account and changed the password just in case, but I found nothing wrong with the email. It is a web mail account and not on my system.

Like I say I don't use steam a lot and I only use it for single player and games that require it. I recently bought Duke Nukem Forever and it requires steam so that is why I wanted to access my account.

Like I wrote earlier, There appears to be quite a few others on the steam forums that have had the same exact thing happen to them. My steam log-on and password was specific to only steam as was the webmail email address I was using.

 

As to who is responsible...If a hospital "requires" you to give them personal information. The hospital is required to protect that information from going public by law. If you doubt that check the recent history of the Veterans hospital when one of their laptops was stolen and peoples personal information was in jeopardy of being used illegally, the VA was responsible for the security of the information given to them.

 

In any case I am glad my copy of A10c is not a steam copy.

I am done with steam until they find a more secure way of doing business.

Thanks for all you guys input, you have given me much to consider and I thank you for that. Happy flying!:)

[EtherealN]

For a 'reason' ,Steam has put Norway into Euro region. Norway is not a member of EU

 

This is the reason, AFAIK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

 

Of course, they have the option of extending the amount of currencies they support. (Both € and £ transactions are processed through the same subsidiary if I remember correctly.) But they have chosen not to, have assigned the serviced area a currency, have set a price level, and go from there.

 

My company does the same thing: we work in three currencies - SEK, NOK and euro. When we do business in Russia we use the euro, and the pricing level is swedish. For some reason, customers in Russia never complain that they're not part of the EU. They have the option to accept the price and do business with us, and the option to not accept it and not do business with us. (Both of which do occur. Nothing stranger than me going into a high-street jewelry store to see what they've got, deciding that it's too expensive, and leaving without a purchase to seek out a cheaper alternative.)

 

Anyways, I said I could get it lot cheaper in a local store too. So to me it sure smells like scam.:mad: Or really bad economics, if you ask me, and probably lot of others.

 

Of course you can. I can often get games cheaper at local stores too. I can also get clothes way cheaper if I buy them in one store at the outskirts of town rather than in the city centre. That doesn't mean either is scamming though - they've made different price judgements based on different criteria. In the case of Steam I would wager that the reason for the setup is fairly simple: they want to minimize risk exposures (through not trading in 5 billion different currencies). They also don't individually micromanage prices on individual countries because it wouldn't be efficient: it would dramatically raise their overhead. This raised overhead would either be met through raised prices, or reducing the revenue transferred to publishers.

 

Example:

Crysis 2 for Xbox 360 at webhallen.se: 599.- SEK

Crysis 2 for Xbox 360 at komplett.se: 499.- SEK

 

Is the price at webhallen a "scam"? No. They were just outbid by komplett. As a consumer I then have the option of selecting where I want to buy it. (Not that I personally plan to buy Crysis 2 specifically, but you get the idea.) The same way you have an option of whether to use purchase games through Steam or not. There's no "scam" involved: you can read the terms and conditions clearly before purchase, price is stated upfront, there are no hidden costs. If you think the price sucks: don't buy. That simple.

 

Personally, I don't mind paying a little extra for a Steam game, since I do like the service they give. If you don't make the same judgement - fair enough. Shop somewhere else. But don't say it's a "scam", because it just isn't.

 

And it actually isn't "bad economics" either. Different actors on the market niche to different sectors of it. Same thing as in food: some stores compete through lowering prices, some stores compete through higher quality, some through catering to special interests and so on and so forth. And there will be overlap between them, and this will cause cases where the same item is available at all places but at varying prices. Completely expected, nothing strange, and you just shop according to your wishes.

 

It would be a scam if the price was not actually as advertised, or the contents of the product or service was not as advertised. Totally different thing.

Edited June 19, 2011 by EtherealN

[Depth]

Though, seeing as you're Norwegian... You are not in the right territory to complain about high prices. :P

Brand new game in a retail store usually costs 500NOK, which is 90USD or 63 EURO.

 

On steam, brand new flashy games are usually 50 EURO, or 400NOK. That leaves me 100Kr to spend on a can of soda and a pack of chewing gum :thumbup:

[MasterZelgadis]

I would never buy regular games on Steam, I want to have a DVD and a case and a...hm...manual (if it is more than a paper sheet with instructions how to install it..)

 

Steam is good for the many specials and when you can get a good game for a reduced price

[EtherealN]

As to who is responsible...If a hospital "requires" you to give them personal information. The hospital is required to protect that information from going public by law. If you doubt that check the recent history of the Veterans hospital when one of their laptops was stolen and peoples personal information was in jeopardy of being used illegally, the VA was responsible for the security of the information given to them.

 

Yeah, but the difference is that in order to assign responsibility onto Valve we first need to have it established that the route of attack was through their systems. Here's an alternative route that would not leave a detectable trace on your machine:

 

1 - A completely unrelated website gets hacked, and the attacker plants an invisible application on the home page of that site which exploits a browser or OS vulnerability to log your computer activity. You will not see it running. It will not ask permission.

2 - You open a different tab to check your webmail. Attacker now has your e-mail data.

3 - You minimize your browser and start Steam to play a game. Attacker now has your Steam data.

 

Assigning "responsibility" in this case is a lot trickier. The vector site might be something completely innocent - let's say it's wikipedia.org. You never gave any information under trust to them. They were not a willing facilitator of the attack. Nor was Valve involved in any way. And if the vulnerability used was new and relatively unknown it's possible that your protection suite hasn't yet been updated to counter it, meaning that you had also taken all reasonable precautions.

 

Now, if wikipedia (as they were used in the example) were to be showed to have catastrophically bad security, then perhaps they could have been given some blame. Or let's say you hadn't taken any protective measures at all - then perhaps you would have been to blame. Let's say Valve's system just malfunctioned - they're to blame. But the point is: it is very much possible for an attack to take place without anyone but the attacker being "responsible" for the damage.

[EtherealN]

That leaves me 100Kr to spend on a can of soda and a pack of chewing gum :thumbup:

 

The funny thing is that that really is all 100 NOK will actually get you, too. :D

Sorry, as a swede I just have to take all chances to have fun at you norwegians' expenses. :)

[Glowing_Amraam]

^^^

Yeah, we keep flocking over the border to sweden to pile up on meat! :D

Way cheaper than here in Norway. :P

[Revvin]

Generally new games are not competitive on Steam, they are normally at their full RRP although recently more games have been sold at a slight discount if you pre-order on Steam. Steam has had some fantastic sales lately though with some good bargains for older games and some more recent releases when publishers do promotions there. For new games there are a few I still liek to have boxed copies for such as ED sim as I have everythig nthey've done on CD/DVD since the first Flanker but for the convenience Steam provides I am buying more and more new titles there and paying the little extra for the ability to download the game whenever I want, automatic patching, the Steam overlay, friends list etc.

[macedk]

ok kids in all (including my post ;))

 

this is now pure speculation/hearsay/conspiracy stuff.

 

1. you put your trust in a company or another person...that is your doing! If it goes south then..A:.you didn't do you homework good enough or B: you were lied to.

point a is "do better next time and live with your loss"

point b. is tough ..who is good and who is not good. again do better research.

 

2. A company is under rules of certain safety obligation regarding the field of business. As far is I know steam is doing what they can to safeguard their users. For the guy who didn't get it...Users in this case means money and business. no users no business. they try and try hard...when you sleep they work (I'm one of them, in a different business area, but trust me I work when you sleep :)) BTW. this is (bad word) common knowledge guys!!

 

3. 90 % of all emails is spam/phising etc of ALL emails sent around the globe. So instead of whining or bitching about ...help act against this trend.

personal hope is some kind of internet drivers license...problem is that half the world population would be deemed from the internet.

 

4. steam lover .....not really but respect for taking on the world of the internet where there is no internet law and all countries can make their own internet work in their favour....DCS tasted that when steam release in the uk was a problem. DSC could just have said "our website or no game"...they didn't and take the calculated risk of going on the global market. (in this case steam).

 

5. why the (bad word again;)) are you posting steam bad doings or lack of (what you think) is security problems ????? post on steam.

 

6. before you flame away hehe. you bought a military sim.....well in the military it is "do it our way or do something else"

 

its like when we watch "idiots got talent(insert your own reality show here)

no tone or no grab on reality and they blame the experts... we all laugh..

 

well in this case you might be one of them....

 

think before you talk please ;)

 

P E A C E :D

[Buzpilot]

Brand new game in a retail store usually costs 500NOK, which is 90USD or 63 EURO.

 

On steam, brand new flashy games are usually 50 EURO, or 400NOK. That leaves me 100Kr to spend on a can of soda and a pack of chewing gum :thumbup:

 

For X-box and ps3 maybe, I just bought Brink in Norway, DVD Nordic edition.

298NOK, + 17NOK postage, was in my mailbox 1.5 days later, total 315NOK

Or 40 Euro, inkluded delivery. On Steam, still 49.99Euro.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Buzpilot

[Buzpilot]

ok kids in all (including my post ;))

 

this is now pure speculation/hearsay/conspiracy stuff.

 

1. you put your trust in a company or another person...that is your doing! If it goes south then..A:.you didn't do you homework good enough or B: you were lied to.

point a is "do better next time and live with your loss"

point b. is tough ..who is good and who is not good. again do better research.

 

2. A company is under rules of certain safety obligation regarding the field of business. As far is I know steam is doing what they can to safeguard their users. For the guy who didn't get it...Users in this case means money and business. no users no business. they try and try hard...when you sleep they work (I'm one of them, in a different business area, but trust me I work when you sleep :)) BTW. this is (bad word) common knowledge guys!!

 

3. 90 % of all emails is spam/phising etc of ALL emails sent around the globe. So instead of whining or bitching about ...help act against this trend.

personal hope is some kind of internet drivers license...problem is that half the world population would be deemed from the internet.

 

4. steam lover .....not really but respect for taking on the world of the internet where there is no internet law and all countries can make their own internet work in their favour....DCS tasted that when steam release in the uk was a problem. DSC could just have said "our website or no game"...they didn't and take the calculated risk of going on the global market. (in this case steam).

 

5. why the (bad word again;)) are you posting steam bad doings or lack of (what you think) is security problems ????? post on steam.

 

6. before you flame away hehe. you bought a military sim.....well in the military it is "do it our way or do something else"

 

its like when we watch "idiots got talent(insert your own reality show here)

no tone or no grab on reality and they blame the experts... we all laugh..

 

well in this case you might be one of them....

 

think before you talk please ;)

 

P E A C E :D

 

If it cost more to keep Euro region safe, than it cost in for instance Russia, then I would take your words more serious:cry:

PS; I hope I NEVER have to register to Steam, any coming DCS games in the future, to use them.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Buzpilot

[EtherealN]

For X-box and ps3 maybe, I just bought Brink in Norway, DVD Nordic edition.

298NOK, + 17NOK postage, was in my mailbox 1.5 days later, total 315NOK

Or 40 Euro, inkluded delivery.

 

One thing to consider:

 

Brink costs €50 on Steam, so that's ~€43.5 if we remove VAT.

Bethesda (as publisher) gets 70%* of that: 43.5*0,7=€30

 

€30 is 237 NOK.

 

At the price you mentioned, removing norwegian VAT, we have 238 NOK. Then the store takes a cut, then the distributor takes a cut, then the state takes a cut on the import duties, the overseas shipping company takes a cut, the printers take a cut... ... ... I can't say how big a cut each of these steps are, but seing as we only had one NOK to spare before starting on all those steps, you bet that the developers got WAY less of your money than if you had bought on Steam.

 

Now, of course, as a consumer it isn't exactly evil to care about the final price first, but it should be noted that the only distribtion model that ensures that a larger cut goes to the developer than what Steam does is to selfpublish AND selfdistribute (like ED does with DCS). But Steam get called a scam and "bad economics", while the cheap prints in stores that basically ensure that the actual guys who made the product gets a minimal cut are the good guys... :doh:

 

See where I'm coming from? :)

 

*I don't know with 100% certainty that that is the case - I took the number from an other company (not ED) I know that has published on Steam.

Edited June 20, 2011 by EtherealN

[EtherealN]

If it cost more to keep Euro region safe, than it cost in for instance Russia, then I would take your words more serious:cry:

 

It costs a LOT more to keep "Euro region safe".

1 - More developed market, larger middle- and upper-classes, equals a more desirable target.

2 - WAAAAAY higher labor costs.

 

Things are cheaper in russia because labor is cheaper in russia. Same way things are cheaper in Sweden (than in Norway) because labor is cheaper. (Well, not only because of that, but it is a major impact - especially in service sectors.)

[Buzpilot]

It costs a LOT more to keep "Euro region safe".

1 - More developed market, larger middle- and upper-classes, equals a more desirable target.

2 - WAAAAAY higher labor costs.

 

Things are cheaper in russia because labor is cheaper in russia. Same way things are cheaper in Sweden (than in Norway) because labor is cheaper. (Well, not only because of that, but it is a major impact - especially in service sectors.)

 

I really doubt Steam has a local server downloading games in each country, just because they made a menu to select download region. And their software developers are certainly not spread around, all of them probably work in USA.

Also I really doubt Steam give a publisher any more than a different online shop in UK or elsewhere, because they don't provide service for all those other online shops for free.

[macedk]

Also Buzpilot, you are forgetting living costs and wages.

 

If I were to pay the Russia price for a game on steam then I would get it cheaper than the Russian guy. This is because our wages are higher. Is that fair on the Russia steam members ?

 

So go look at the big mac index and you will get a rough idea on the cost of living in a country.

http://www.economist.com/node/13055650?story_id=E1_TPDVVGVD&CFID=166132419&CFTOKEN=98133477

 

Steam is not the cheapest but many like it because it gives a no nonsense approach to buying and installing a game.

 

Also they support their product. You try and buy the cheaper copy at your local blockbuster or supermarket and ask them for install support...well they have no clue on what they sold you and they will refer you to the developer.

 

Example: dungeon siege 3

 

retail: 299,95 dkk (got game, home,install,play)

 

steam:372,88 dkk (try free demo first, 3 trailers, allot of screen shots,patches)

 

So you pay in this case about 20% more but you also got more...well its up to the individual...but over prized and a rip-off ehh not in my book :)

[Buzpilot]

If I were to pay the Russia price for a game on steam then I would get it cheaper than the Russian guy. This is because our wages are higher. Is that fair on the Russia steam members ?

If i only could manage to learn russian :cry:

 

Steam is not the cheapest but many like it because it gives a no nonsense approach to buying and installing a game.

I don't mind DVD, no waiting hours while downloading, usually a 10 min install and maybe a small patch. But usually people think downloading is cheaper, no printing manual or DVD to pay for.

 

Also they support their product. You try and buy the cheaper copy at your local blockbuster or supermarket and ask them for install support...well they have no clue on what they sold you and they will refer you to the developer.

Never heard about google? Anyways a Steam support ticket usually don't respond the day you need them.

 

Example: dungeon siege 3

 

retail: 299,95 dkk (got game, home,install,play)

 

steam:372,88 dkk (try free demo first, 3 trailers, allot of screen shots,patches)

You can still try the free demo, watch 3 trailers and screens, and then get the 299,95 dkk copy:music_whistling:

 

So you pay in this case about 20% more but you also got more...well its up to the individual...but over prized and a rip-off ehh not in my book

Eh, you don't get more, and you-tube has even more free information on any Steam product.

You seem to be a guy who would smile and say goodbye and walk out smiling from a shop in London, where you just bought a nice Jacket priced 200£,

but when you pay they charged 350Euro because you live in a different european country, oh well.

Is this right?

I'm the only one who find this very strange?:(

Edited June 20, 2011 by Buzpilot

[nscode]

You should all feel lucky you don't live here, where prices are higher than most of EU, but wages are lowest.

 

Would be nice if ED placed us in the Russian price region.

[Depth]

prices are higher than most of EU, but wages are lowest.

This is what matters the most, prices vs. wages. Norways high prices fit with Norways high wages. This has the side-effect of making Norwegian exports bastardly expensive to buy abroad.

 

For the opposite end of the spectrum look at Thailand. Average income is around 23000 Baht per year (around 530 Euro, per year). You can get a very good meal for 10 to 20 baht (0.50 Euro) and any game or movie you want for 20 to 100 baht depending on the quality and type of the media. So when it comes to imports, to us it's cheaper but to them the price sky-rockets. Fuel for instance costs around 40 baht per litre, which means that if you have a 20 litre tank that's easily 800 baht, sizable chunk of their income.

[Buzpilot]

So how about Kuwait, or Bahrain, they pay 500$ for a game there?

[EtherealN]

Also I really doubt Steam give a publisher any more than a different online shop in UK or elsewhere, because they don't provide service for all those other online shops for free.

 

I gave you numbers I know explicitly through other contacts in the industry that have published through Steam. I don't know if 70% is what everyone gets, but I do know that is what you can get, because it has been done.

 

And you are missing the point massively:

When you buy a game on Steam, there's three parties that split the money:

1 - The government. (VAT)

2 - Valve.

3 - The publisher.

 

On a box company, the plit of your money involves these:

1 - The government. (VAT + import duties.)

2 - The store

3 - The distributor

4 - The transport agencies both domestic and at point of origin

5 - The printer

6 - The publisher

 

If you can't see how the first case will mean more money for the publisher than the second case, you need to re-do maths.

 

I would have thought that it is easy to see how the first one can be more advantageous to publishers and developers. There is a reason why independent developers like to publish on Steam. As an example, do you know Introversion Software? The guys who made Defcon, Darwinia etcetera. They have explicitly stated that their company would not exist if it wasn't for Steam. They were already doing layoffs, closing their office, and moving their operation back to their basements when they god a sale on Steam off and raked in enough money almost overnight to fund the development of their next game (Subversion). And when they sell on Steam. Yeah, total scam right there...

 

Also, look at what the "big boys" are doing. EA, Ubi and all the others are trying to set up their own services because it radically reduces costs. They published happily on Steam for a while because it gives them a way larger cut than the second option listed above, and with that successfully done they've set their eyes on those last 30%. (To the point that, for example, Crysis 2 will actually be taken off of Steam because they want to sell it exclusively on their own service. Steam, however, does not require exclusivity.)

Edited June 20, 2011 by EtherealN

[Buzpilot]

I gave you numbers I know explicitly through other contacts in the industry that have published through Steam. I don't know if 70% is what everyone gets, but I do know that is what you can get, because it has been done.

 

And you are missing the point massively:

When you buy a game on Steam, there's three parties that split the money:

1 - The government. (VAT)

2 - Valve.

3 - The publisher.

 

On a box company, the plit of your money involves these:

1 - The government. (VAT + import duties.)

2 - The store

3 - The distributor

4 - The transport agencies both domestic and at point of origin

5 - The printer

6 - The publisher

 

If you can't see how the first case will mean more money for the publisher than the second case, you need to re-do maths.

 

I would have thought that it is easy to see how the first one can be more advantageous to publishers and developers. There is a reason why independent developers like to publish on Steam. As an example, do you know Introversion Software? The guys who made Defcon, Darwinia etcetera. They have explicitly stated that their company would not exist if it wasn't for Steam. They were already doing layoffs, closing their office, and moving their operation back to their basements when they god a sale on Steam off and raked in enough money almost overnight to fund the development of their next game (Subversion). And when they sell on Steam. Yeah, total scam right there...

 

Also, look at what the "big boys" are doing. EA, Ubi and all the others are trying to set up their own services because it radically reduces costs. They published happily on Steam for a while because it gives them a way larger cut than the second option listed above, and with that successfully done they've set their eyes on those last 30%. (To the point that, for example, Crysis 2 will actually be taken off of Steam because they want to sell it exclusively on their own service. Steam, however, does not require exclusivity.)

 

Just because Valve and publisher get a bigger share of sales, doesn't mean the Developer gets anything more. My point is that Valve or Steam is loosing credibility, and eventually money, when I can get a game, that needs a Steam account, alot cheaper in my local store.

I remeber in 2008 when I used to pay in US$ to Steam, and dollars was slightly lower than today, then I just because it was cheap I got a load of games I just didn't have tried before. But now they don't get any money at all from me, because it's lot cheaper anywhere else.

[EtherealN]

I really doubt Steam has a local server downloading games in each country, just because they made a menu to select download region. And their software developers are certainly not spread around, all of them probably work in USA.

Also I really doubt Steam give a publisher any more than a different online shop in UK or elsewhere, because they don't provide service for all those other online shops for free.

 

In each country? No.

 

In each region? Oh yes. When you download a game from Steam, you do NOT download from a server in the USA. If you think you do, just ping it while downloading and go "ooooh...".

 

As for their software developers, here's the thing: they need servers all over the world. This is a simple fact. I don't care if you are so far down your Steam Scam conspiracy theory bull that you don't want to believe it - it's a fact. So even if we assume the entirety of Valve Software is located in Bellevue (which it isn't, but nevermind) they'll have significant expenses elsewhere. Let's take Battle.net as an example - for the european servers of Battle.net, Blizzard use Telia hosting centres. So those servers aren't actually part of Blizzard - they sit in Telia property. What does this mean?

 

...it means that all the associated costs are on swedish expense levels. Even if blizzard didn't have a single employee in sweden (which they do have), they'd still be paying swedish expenses.

 

I'm sorry, but with as much respect as I can conjure: you just don't have a clue how this market works. All you see is an end-user price, you cry "SCAM" without a clue what that word even means, and then weep about your industrialized world problems of having to pay 30 minutes of work extra for a computer game that required 2-4 years of work for 50 to 100 people to make. It's mindboggling.