Simulation vs Reality

[Bee_Sting]

There seems to be quite a few real-life pilots in the forum, and I'm a bit curious about how you percieve filght simulation.

 

Does flight simulation provide a good base for understanding real aerial combat?

And (the usual question) do they "feel real"(As sensed through eyes and ears of course)?

 

Are the flight simulators used in real flight training keeping up with development (physical modelling, aerodynamic effects etc.)?

 

What's the most/least impressive with present day flight sims from a pilots point of view?

 

I'd really like to try a training simulator one day (not to mention the real thing), using "real" instruments and controls, a civillian one would be great too. Perhaps the joystick manufacturers should wake up and start selling full cockpits mounted in a centrifuge for G-effetcs. And all in one simple USB connection!

[EtherealN]

Flight sims give you an understanding of air combat if the people you fly with allow it. Airquake... No. Doesn't matter how realistic the simulator is, after a session of airquake you'll still have no clue. And this is important: understanding air combat is a lot more about who you train with and how, less about the tools. Good simulators are nice, but air forces did this kind of training before the transistor was invented...

 

Simulators used for actual flight training are above and beyond what you'll see in a simulator like this. Typically you'll have the equivalent of dozens of PC's, minimum, running it. Of course, what we get on the desktop today is way better than the best research systems 20 years ago, but the military side hasn't been sitting still either. (Preliminary JAS-39 testing was done on a computer system that was considerably weaker than a normal cell phone - and I'm not even talking about "smartphones", but current day testing and training is done with better equipment.)

 

Personally, flight sims are eother "flying planes I can't fly IRL", or rehearsal before real flights. In the latter case, as far as actually "flying" goes, you need a fully motorized dome sim to get close to the real thing - anything less is a procedure trainer. (But of course, you feel a lot more comfortable if you find yourself having to perform a flatspin recovery if you already rehearsed the maneuvers in-sim. It was a great feeling when I did that first time and found the behaviour of the aircraft to mirror the simulator - and of course, spins are awesome fun!)

 

Regarding commercial simpits - way too small market. But there are a lot of small companies that sell components you can use to build your own - this includes whole instrument panels.

Edited October 14, 2011 by EtherealN

[element1108]

One major and often overlooked factor is physical effects of G's, orientation etc on the body. It's amazing the sensation a simple tilt or twist of the yoke can give your body. It gets better over time, but practicing spin recovery for the first time can be a sickening feeling definitely.

 

Honestly the mental stress of the dead or alive dogfight and the physical stress the body endures during such a scenario is remarkable. I can't imagine how utterly exhausted WWII pilots were, especially during the BOB where they were on alert almost 24/7.

 

I love flight simulators, but I will never consider them much of a contest to reality. :)

[FLANKERATOR]

The 2 things can't get even close for sure. As you said, every little move on the stick in real makes you feel different because of the body orientation and of course the G effect. The only fatigue you can feel in sims is mostly mental while it's mostly and foremost physical in real. This makes a huge difference at the end of the day, you will never see chips in a real pit :P

I like your idea of G-effect enabled commercial pit, THAT WOULD BE AWESOME!!!!Passion can make you do anything...and personally I would get a loan to buy this stuff :D

Edited October 14, 2011 by FLANKERATOR

[aaron886]

There seems to be quite a few real-life pilots in the forum, and I'm a bit curious about how you percieve filght simulation.

 

As a hobby. I'm not a military pilot, so I enjoy the chance to use flight sims to do what I can't do in real life. (Unless I want to go to jail. Haha)

 

Does flight simulation provide a good base for understanding real aerial combat?

And (the usual question) do they "feel real"(As sensed through eyes and ears of course)?

 

Are the flight simulators used in real flight training keeping up with development (physical modelling, aerodynamic effects etc.)?

 

 

They're a nice tool to strengthen visual perception, and sometimes, stick/rudder skills with respect to visual feedback. (But that depends on the simulator.) Nothing provides "a good base for understanding real aerial combat" but real aerial combat. Simulation will never be able to capture the depth of the tactical environment. I would venture to say it's something like comparing bumper cars to F1 racing. They're both driving. Just one of them is a little... different.

 

What's the most/least impressive with present day flight sims from a pilots point of view?

 

Do you mean between PC flight sims? None of them are more impressive than another. (As long as we're talking about sims and not games, which I think is a fair delineation.) Each targets a certain market and contains features that others do not. Apples and oranges. It matters little to how they relate to real-world experiences. What you do with it is what matters, obviously... and each simulator's capabilities enable you to do certain things with a level of fidelity greater than another. A great way to spot someone who has no idea what they're talking about is to watch for them to explain how "their" simulator is so much more "realistic/better" than "that other" simulator, with no exterior reference. :D

Edited October 14, 2011 by aaron886

[Bimbac]

There seems to be quite a few real-life pilots in the forum, and I'm a bit curious about how you percieve filght simulation.

 

Does flight simulation provide a good base for understanding real aerial combat?

And (the usual question) do they "feel real"(As sensed through eyes and ears of course)?

 

Yes and no. A Mission Trainer or Full Mission Simulator (the difference between them is that the latter has the capability to simulate the forces, attitude changes and G-effects) gives you pretty good idea about close air combat. The environment projection systems of today are very sophisticated, so the sense of flying is realistic. However, for complete BVR training, a more complex simulator is needed to provide multiple cockpits, so the pilots can train together (it focuses primarily on tactics, so the flight model is not a priority).

 

Are the flight simulators used in real flight training keeping up with development (physical modelling, aerodynamic effects etc.)?

 

Of course, but commercial computer simulators have better graphic effects :smilewink:.

 

What's the most/least impressive with present day flight sims from a pilots point of view?

 

Most impressive? I guess the fact that you can do anything you want.

Least impressive? Not so entertaining as DCS :thumbup:

 

I'd really like to try a training simulator one day (not to mention the real thing), using "real" instruments and controls, a civillian one would be great too. Perhaps the joystick manufacturers should wake up and start selling full cockpits mounted in a centrifuge for G-effetcs. And all in one simple USB connection!

 

Sure, just drop by our airbase and give me a call! :music_whistling:

Believe me, it's very hard for one man to keep such a complex system running to your satisfaction. You would probably spend more time by solving problems than flying.

 

Best regards!

[aaron886]

Believe me, it's very hard for one man to keep such a complex system running to your satisfaction.

 

What simulators do you work on? That's a heck of a job for one guy! (They break more often than real airplanes. :D)

[Bimbac]

JAS-39 Gripen mission trainer.

 

I am not alone for maintenance, but in charge.

[SUBS17]

Does flight simulation provide a good base for understanding real aerial combat?

And (the usual question) do they "feel real"(As sensed through eyes and ears of course)?

 

Are the flight simulators used in real flight training keeping up with development (physical modelling, aerodynamic effects etc.)?

 

What's the most/least impressive with present day flight sims from a pilots point of view?

 

I'd really like to try a training simulator one day (not to mention the real thing), using "real" instruments and controls, a civillian one would be great too. Perhaps the joystick manufacturers should wake up and start selling full cockpits mounted in a centrifuge for G-effetcs. And all in one simple USB connection!

 

The best sims I have are the following:

DCS A-10C is the best sim for the A-10C as it has not only the full cockpit etc but you can also use real life procedures for emergencys etc. To get an idea of what its like IRL to use this jet download the BFT missions as IRL they are expected to be near perfect in speed/heading/altitude and formation. The FM is very good.(BTW I am not a pilot IRL, but I've read alot of their manuals)

 

BMS is the best F-16 sim and it has the very best FM for the F-16 if you look on the BMS forums the guy who made the FM is an aircraft engineer and used NASA wind tunnel data for the FM its probably closer to a real F-16 FM than some mil sims. The F-16 in BMS is 99% done the only aspect missing is the IFF but if you read the real life F-16 manuals including MLU Tapes 1 and 2, USAF Tac manual you'll find 99% of the tactics/manouvers etc work in BMs and the increased complexity makes it very close to what DCS has with the KA50/A-10C.

 

Yes you can buy a full F-16 cockpit with everything working as for G it can be modelled with a pressure suit and a moving pit is also possible(I've been in a couple of sims that have 360x360 movement and it can be fun dogfighting but the pits are very expensive). A full G simulated pit has been made and they are worth millions of dollars and it requires a very large building to setup and it will make you black out if you do not AGSM. BTW it sucks dogfighting people who are not using full 360 while you are:D.

 

A full cockpit is possible for Falcon and DCS A-10C as both can export MFD/HUD data to external devices.:thumbup: Pits can built from as little as $100US up to $100000US.