OPFOR "A Call to Arms !! "

[Cali]

well cali i counted, cause that are things i meassure a good and a bad pilot also. or everage, bla bla bla. but that are things you can use to see how people fly, and not much change in the behavior of the f15 flyboys. just fire spamramms and turn and come back and over and over again.

 

I agree on the thing about a good and bad pilot. Spamming missiles doesn't make you good, it might just keep u alive. Also, not all F-15 pilots fly and employ missiles like that. 3Sqn doesn't do that, we don't take 8x120 loadouts. The only time I do that is if I'm outnumbered and only a few guys are on my side. My normal loadout is 4x2x2 or 6x2, depending on what's going on in the server. The other day I joined 4C, first time I flew in over 2 months and took my 4x2x2 load. I killed a guy with an AIM-7 and 120, I tried the AIM-9's but he outran them and then I got him with a flood mode AIM-7.

 

The same thing can be said about other fighters spamming missiles also. The only difference is TWS, but the russian jets have EOS.

[Case]

Tacview

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/600721/Opfor3.acmi

 

Track

http://mediafire.com/?00awledsfh182p4

 

:smilewink:

 

Thanks Crunch. Any chance to get the debrief.log as well?

[MoGas]

My god, you guys think 60 is much, there are been events with 100 been shot, from other guys. and the "we dont do that in our Sqn.", comments are nice....

 

plus the "Spamming missiles doesn't make you good", kind of words, I guess I am in the rong movie here....You guys wanna talk RL, ask youre pilot Cali what he does when a fullscale war brakes out? Going home with the tools, when he is engaged?

 

And ask him aswell, if he should shoot only one missile or more on a single enemy? Wanna hear the answer, btw., I know it already....

 

And, different events, with different rules, if you have limited stockpile, then you have to change tactics simple it is, as youre enemy has do to aswell......nice story about 60 AIM-120`s been shot lol....

 

If a enemy complains, to be get spammed, then stop moving around, it is quicker over with just one or two then....

 

It seems after years in Lockon, someone just looked at the first tacview in history after a event. :book:

 

:doh:

Edited December 16, 2011 by MoGas

[borchi_2b]

hey riptide,

 

well about the planing i did not write a real comment, cause i , or we, were not there. so i want to be fair and i only watched the tacview to see how everything turned out and what could be seen.

 

about the missiles, well the numbers and the tacview are just impressive though.

 

about the tactics, well do to the fact that i was not in the planning, i cannot really say much about it. just that it looks like mass flying around, like hornets on a hount for prey.

 

about the lagging, well it is true about the fact that missile do not hit when the opponent laggs.

 

about the proximity fuze, that works right in the MP, we did alot of testing with ditch maneuvers etc etc. all turned out to be the same, in SP and MP.

 

but still i think it is great to have such events.

and i hope you guys will keep on doing such events, and i hope i can convince our squad about taking part in such event in the near future. but what i allready see is that they do not want to take part, cause they also looked at the tacview and they do not like the fact of just flying around, nothing close to reality and spamming missles as much as i can in 3 hours.

 

to take off in 3 hour 8 times makes an everage flighttime of about 20minutes, landing and take off included.

 

what i would sugest for such an event, to meake it maybe more interesting, some regulations, on weapons and refuel times, so this makes supperior tactics more important, and then the better side really wins and this would also make some learning, or at least people could take something with them as improvement.

 

@mogas:

 

well we have a real luftwaffe pilot in our squad an i asked him about such things, some time ago.

it is true that nobody ask you about how many missiles you shot, but, at some point they do start to tell you to use them wisely. that point appears on the table, when the supply of missiles will be less good and when you have less missiles you can not shoot like on a turkeyhunt, cause you have to fullfill certain tasks, and when they cannot be fullfilled, and everybody can imagine the outcome when tasks cannot be fullfilled.

so there are certain things pilots have to take in account when fighting in real scenarios, although such thing never happend.

but further, there is allways some task and you can allways take advantage of you SAMs, and to encounter anything about fights like desert storm or kosovo, europe for example is not iraq or kosovo. so if somebody imagines, that it would be so easy to kill the sams stationed in europe, ehh nope, negative on that.

 

but i do not want to destroy this threat, it was just one thing about the opfor event that i figuered and which is not so welcome in our squad for example.

 

maybe this is a reason why we stayed internal for soo long, although we did fight some squadwars against some squad. hardest was the 51st :-)

 

and to them, damn guys, you are really really good and stay in your tactics all the time. my applause to your squad. :-)

 

edit:

@mogas:

ich kann dir ja auch auf deutsch schreiben stimmt :-), ne aber mal im ernst, also 60 raketen, kein luftwaffe pilot der welt würde so schießen, denn was bringt es mir wenn ich meine waffen nicht ins ziel bringen kann und dann so schnell leer bin. plus kein luftwaffe pilot würde jemals, nie nie nie, 2 raketen im abstand von 5 sekunden schießen, denn das ist nicht taktisch. taktisches schießen wäre es wenn man die 2te schießt sobald die erste pitbull ist und nicht 2 die ersten 5 sekunden, nen stück supporten und dann abdrehen.

würde kaum ein pilot in der realität machen ausser die flight ist richtig stark ounumbered, bzw selbst dann glaube ich nicht dass sie so viel spammen würden.

 

grüße aus deutschland

Edited December 16, 2011 by borchi_2b

[Boberro]

Well, creating rules that a fighter cannot rearm more than X times is nonsense IMHO. Good way is to create limited amount of weapons (if current engine allows).

IRL IMO within danger you wouldn't think it is waste of quarter million dollars missile or it is not. You've been given, you do what you have to do. That's to be mentioned that it is obvious if you have to kill let's say Cessna you rather won't do this by expensive missile, you can use something cheaper.

In case of LO events with payload resources limitation if missiles are ran out - that's PITA and failure of pilots who knew limitations and could use them more wisely if they didn't of course. In such events all know situation and limitations, so everyone is aware that missiles have to be used more wisely than normal. So if you want to stop missile spam, make resource management, limited missiles.

At first time one side eg Blue looses, another time also but at third time everyone will use missiles in more appropriate way.

 

Same applies to AG where you don't waste missile for 100 000 USD to kill Talib house if you can do it same by just dumb bomb or rocket pod... but this is other story. (It is still nice to kill Igla by Kh-29T :D)

Edited December 16, 2011 by Boberro

[MoGas]

edit:

@mogas:

ich kann dir ja auch auf deutsch schreiben stimmt :-), ne aber mal im ernst, also 60 raketen, kein luftwaffe pilot der welt würde so schießen, denn was bringt es mir wenn ich meine waffen nicht ins ziel bringen kann und dann so schnell leer bin. plus kein luftwaffe pilot würde jemals, nie nie nie, 2 raketen im abstand von 5 sekunden schießen, denn das ist nicht taktisch. taktisches schießen wäre es wenn man die 2te schießt sobald die erste pitbull ist und nicht 2 die ersten 5 sekunden, nen stück supporten und dann abdrehen.

würde kaum ein pilot in der realität machen ausser die flight ist richtig stark ounumbered, bzw selbst dann glaube ich nicht dass sie so viel spammen würden.

 

grüße aus deutschland

 

dear borchi, you right on those points, you seem to forget that we are not in RL and sometimes, specific events in MP lead to the point where I have to shoot again. It looks on tacviews, like a mindless spammer, but fact is you are not sitting in the pit in that situation.

 

#1: I took a shot with two missiles in TWS, on a single bandit, why two, well, in Lockon you just wanna be sure, that he is dead when he is hit, in MOST times, a single shot dosent kill the enemy by a bigger distance, on a low too medium bandit (different story on a high ALT bandit even on RMAX range) or by lag or weird behaving in MP. You can either use only one AIM-120, on longer range, that means maybe a hit, but with a good chance the enemy keeps shooting with a little damage and he goas RTB, or I shoot a second as well, if he gets hit, there is a good chance he die`s right away. This really depends, on how the event is setup (rules, limited missiles etc..), ohterwise you try ofcourse to keep missiles if not needed. Remember the enemy on this OPFOR was a aggressive one, who pushed with burner right in our HVT zone, there is not much time left to react.

 

#2: As you know, you need to support youre missile in TWS until pitbull, to rise the PK, if a player, for example, gets engaged by 30 miles from 40.000ft, and for some reason he get lost on my TWS after 3 seconds, I need to get a re-lock and shoot again, or the enemy, kills me by my waiting if the stupid missiles gona hit or not. This re-lock and shooting again, looks like waisting missiles (what it is), but I lost the first already, soo, I need to do something or I die.

 

#3: Couple things from the main plan went rong, in this event for us, what was missing players in key elements, some not on comms, not really read the planning forum and so on. This leaded in some real issues in holding our lines togheter, at this night. That means, getting pushed by 7-9 planes where you only have two right now.

 

#4: We had a debrief later on TS with the otherside (RED), and we talked about our issues, plus the lag and warping issues. I didnt wanted to jumb into this "why 60 missiles" BS and soo on, but as soon I saw I get judged by people who are not been involved by this event, or I never have seen in a event for ages or not at all, I feeled the need to post.

 

It should be not offensive from my side either.

 

 

This are a bandit, what lags very hard on my tacview, but the tacview what u have, he dosent seems to lag at all, I guess you have the same one not sure, I have the tac from Riptide, a 8 miles shot, I already waited for a kill, but nothing. I have to say, we dont know exactly, what was causing this issue...

 

grüsse aus Österreich :)

Edited December 16, 2011 by MoGas

[104th_Maverick]

cause you cannot just turn and burn when the missile is not pitbull

 

You can't??? Shit, someone better give the guys in the United States Air Force a call and let them know that, might also be a good idea to give the US Navy a call to and let them know as I know 100% that both Arms fire 120s and go defensive before it goes pitbull.... granted not with every shot but it does happen.

 

Borchi for someone who has little to no combat experience in MP Lockon you have a lot to say ...

 

In between your trolling posts have a look at this video mate ...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgS7z6iaS3U

 

and since you clearly have no idea what it means once you have watched the video check out this page and look up 'cheapshot' -

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brevity_code

 

 

 

Spamming missiles doesn't make you good

 

No one said it did and I agree with you all the way, and as you correctly pointed out 3Sqn do fly with 8x120 I've seen it many times although I will concede you guys do carry 7s more than we do... sadly however this too doesn't make you 'good' either

 

I see some very clever flying from 3Sqn, have done so many times I really rate you guys but as I'm sure you appreciate Cali there is no set rules for an engagement what works in one situation might not work in an another.... sometimes trying to be smart gets you killed and if you don't take your shot your going to end up with an Eagle screaming up your 6 inside 10 miles.

 

Contrary to what this post is turning out to be (a bit of an attack at F-15 drivers) not all of us 'spam' and run, yes many do however without blowing my horn to hard I've been lucky enough in the past to be the victor against many lone wolves and squad members using 'their' tactics because 'my' tactic which involved not spamming worked!

 

Yes there are certain F-15 drivers that will spam on you at 20 miles then run away (a certain 'Germanese' guy for example) I don't rate this tactic at all... waste of time as you spend all your days RTB'ing..... but not all of us fly like this.

 

You can't get kills on the 'good' guys in Lockon by Spamming missiles.

 

It is incredibly easy for anyone who knows what they are doing to NOT get killed by someone spamming in an F-15... to put it bluntly if you get killed by someone firing 3-4 120s on you from 20 miles.... you don't know what your doing and its your own fault your dead.

 

The main thing the 120 gives the F-15 is options... the option to fire at range and factor this into your fight is one of them, sometimes I'll happily waste a 120 with a 25 mile shot with a low PK just so it goes active on him and he reacts then I push in on him for the kill while he is dealing with defeating that 120 which is easy when its fired from 25 miles but it means he is not just flying hot at me.... Your a fool if you dont at least 'consider' that option, you don't always have to take it but its there and it works.

 

On that note before anyone jumps down my throat... in over a year of playing Lockon I have yet to meet someone who does not fire on me inside of 20 miles but manages to evade my missiles... get behind me and kill me.... try that shit with anyone who knows what they are doing and your going to die.... if my missile goes active on you and you have not fired on me I'm not going to be flying away from you I'll be closing the range as fast as I can to kill you.

 

I'm in favor of restricting weapons for future events I think it would make things more challenging however this OPFOR had NO posted weapon restrictions so if people wanted to spam actives that was their choice.

 

I appreciate you have stated a few times Borchi that your not attacking anyone however it seems to me that you are grossly unqualified to say some of the things you have.. believe it or not MP and SP are very.... VERY different ...

 

Fair enough if you were a well known Lockon 'ace' in the multiplayer servers I and others might have a bit more time to consider what your saying however your not.... you flew in an event that was 8vs8 years ago with your friends... thats about it frankly... you have no idea what your talking about

Edited December 16, 2011 by [Maverick]

[FLANKERATOR]

I don't mind firing all my air-to-air payload without a single kill, if by doing so I help destroying/protecting 10 or 20 times more expensive enemy/friendly assets. An air-to-air missile has to not to hit to do the job.

 

Good approach would be to compare the overall cost of all air-to-air missiles having been used with the overall cost of all destroyed assets during OPFOR.

[GGTharos]

hey riptide,

 

well about the planing i did not write a real comment, cause i , or we, were not there. so i want to be fair and i only watched the tacview to see how everything turned out and what could be seen.

 

about the missiles, well the numbers and the tacview are just impressive though.

 

While I agree with you than in many cases missiles were wasted needlessly ...

 

about the tactics, well do to the fact that i was not in the planning, i cannot really say much about it. just that it looks like mass flying around, like hornets on a hount for prey.

 

I'm not sure what it is you're expecting from a bunch of people who don't regularly train together, comms are spotty, and planning probably isn't all that clear. Further, I'm not sure why you're expecting people who do this as a hobby should be doing any better.

 

about the proximity fuze, that works right in the MP, we did alot of testing with ditch maneuvers etc etc. all turned out to be the same, in SP and MP.

 

Depends on what the ping of your target is, and how much jitter he's got. There can be things done to change this and make missiles deadlier against such opponents, but there are some tricks that the fuzes deal with in MP where they cannot quite keep up in SP.

 

but still i think it is great to have such events.

and i hope you guys will keep on doing such events, and i hope i can convince our squad about taking part in such event in the near future. but what i allready see is that they do not want to take part, cause they also looked at the tacview and they do not like the fact of just flying around, nothing close to reality and spamming missles as much as i can in 3 hours.

 

That's silly. Why not join in and fly your own plan? Just agree with the others on what you're doing. All you did was miss the opportunity to show off your stuff if you're that good.

 

what i would sugest for such an event, to meake it maybe more interesting, some regulations, on weapons and refuel times, so this makes supperior tactics more important, and then the better side really wins and this would also make some learning, or at least people could take something with them as improvement.

 

You don't need regulations to make tactics more important. Bring good tactics, you'll end up giving the other side a bloody nose all the time, and they'll either sit up and notice and start working on their own, or they'll just keep being missile bait. Or maybe you'll find your tactics aren't so good after all. Who knows?

[GGTharos]

;1353669']On that note before anyone jumps down my throat... in over a year of playing Lockon I have yet to meet someone who does not fire on me inside of 20 miles but manages to evade my missiles... get behind me and kill me.... try that shit with anyone who knows what they are doing and your going to die.... if my missile goes active on you and you have not fired on me I'm not going to be flying away from you I'll be closing the range as fast as I can to kill you.

 

That's a little surprising - I know three people who can make you clean your wings, but then again, they don't show up much in MP, and I'm not claiming it's easy either - especially hard if they don't fire back :)

 

I appreciate you have stated a few times Borchi that your not attacking anyone however it seems to me that you are grossly unqualified to say some of the things you have.. believe it or not MP and SP are very.... VERY different ...

He's backhandedly stating a prefference for the type on environment he'd like to fly in. His opinion is valid, but I think his solution to his concerns is not effective.
Edited December 16, 2011 by GGTharos

[Moa]

Thanks Crunch. Any chance to get the debrief.log as well?

 

Hiya Case. Here's the debrief log (customized with extra data for our stats - so you might want to strip that out if you are going to put it in your own stats system - please feel free to ask about any of the customized values there):

 

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?g1g95laudv53yh2

 

[839 kB]

 

A big thanks to the 51st for participating.

[104th_Maverick]

That's a little surprising - I know three people who can make you clean your wings, but then again, they don't show up much in MP

 

 

Tell them to bring it man :thumbup:

[104th_Crunch]

and i hope you guys will keep on doing such events, and i hope i can convince our squad about taking part in such event in the near future. but what i allready see is that they do not want to take part, cause they also looked at the tacview and they do not like the fact of just flying around, nothing close to reality and spamming missles as much as i can in 3 hours.

 

 

You are trying to be constructive thanks, and you make some good points, but at the same time you make observations about the mission with no knowledge of what happened. You weren't there for planning, so how would you know what planning took place? You weren't there in Teamspeak listening to the coordination between flights and just look at the Tacview to say there was no coordination. Unless there is audio in Tacview recorded from Treamspeak now and I missed this feature.

 

I just don't get it. If a real F-15 pilot has 8 x 120 on his plane, and some bad guy is shooting at him with the intent to kill him, make him no more, dead as a nail, end of the road of his life, I really think the last thing on that F-15 pilot's mind is going to be, my God, I am going to waste my 8 missiles and cost the government money, and my squadmates will label me a spammer lol. He is going to use what he has to make sure the bad guy is dead. Anyway, I am repeating myself.

 

Again, thanks for the contructive comments.

[Frostie]

I'm sure the constructive comments would have been better received without the use of naming pilots, i'm sure it's not nice to have your performance scrutinised by someone with limited intel on the event and situation.

 

Like has been said this is still a game in many aspects and played over the internet those two things alone make it a longway from reality. With the aforementioned lag/proximity issues etc. in mind if Russian missiles could be fired off the rails without warning i'm sure as hell there'd be more double tapping going on.

[borchi_2b]

at first i want to thank all of you, that my critisism was not seen as an attack.

 

yes sure enough i maybe should not have written any names, so for that i want to appologise, i t was just one thing i saw, not more. i could have been any other name, it makes no diffrence to me.

 

the thing about firing 2 missles to make sure it is a perfect kill, cause one missle might not be enough, well this is maybe omething that could be fixed in fc3, maybe, i do not know, but when a a2a fighter is hit by a missle, the fragments really destroy not only hyraulics, nope it is way more then that.

so yes i know that issue in mp that one missle is not enough in some cases to kill a bandit, esspecially when you are firing at long ranges. why this happen in this sim, i do not know, but the sim must take the kinetic energy into account at the hit itself, but normaly not the energy is important, the fragments of the warhead are the actual effect, how everybody knows, or shoud know.

so maybe there is a way to make such things more real, or more effectiv, depends on the devs what they can do about this issue.

but i can only say, that i often see this effect online also when i use the r27er, it is nothing that is just an aim120 issue, as far i could see.

 

for myself, well i know that i have flown against nearly all the people here, who post online a couple of times.

i even remember the times when there was only the hyperlobby which is ages now :-)

i myself am flying lomac since 5 years active online in the community, so i could see alot of things happening and can say, that there is at least some knowledge about mp and what lagging can do to your flying. i even remember the times when people tried to drive you mad just by printscreening like hell, to make your missle not hit you.

well for you guys, as far i am not flying with my squad name, i use at least 4 names when i fly, although i do not why, but i do it :-)

here are only 2 names of the 4 which i sometimes use.

the current name used is MALINKA ABISJANA / thats russian and says small monkey :-)

also i sometimes used PROVENZANO, but thats when i fly together wit my wingy AL CAPONE.

 

so some of you might recognise these names, and some even know to which squad i belong.

 

for the fact that our squad does not want to take part in such event. well that are all individuals, sometimes i have to say unfortunatly, but all people know that such things are not allways realisale for squads, to take part of such event.

there are issues poeple leaving for month to go to war, for example.

problems of the timing, bla bla bla. for me, these reasons, the bla bla bla reason are things that are more like excuses, but thats just for me that way, others might see things diffrent and there are so many reasons, to many to write them all :-)

for th spamming part of it, well we had some real great time when we, my wingy and i planed our internal campaign with certain tasks etc etc. this event was very very intersting and everybody, even the spammers in our squad like it, not to spam the missiles, cause they were forced to not do it, cause this had an effect on the scoring of thier team. everbody was in some way responcable for the whole outcome, and maybe this was the success of our campaign. still it was alot of work for us, after each event, cause we had to watch every pilot and his performance, so sometimes it tokk days to get a debrief done.

this is something that makes such events interesting i think. some balance that effects the whole fight and the whole scenario. so in the end, after the server was shut down, we did not know how won the round. but what was imprtant was, that every pilot tried to give his best, and we had some of the best engagments during that whole event, although i am allready a member in our squad for 5 years now.

 

about the planing, well i allready stated that i was not part of the planing and thats why i said as fair condition, that i did not want to write anything about that.

 

about the lagging, well we decided for our birthday event, that we first want to keep it in europe, cause we are worried about the comms, and also about the performance of the connections people may have. so a solution for the lagging problem on such huge events would be some rules like no ping higher then xxx. i remember this was done when there was fc1.12b, but right now i have not seen anything stated like that, or i missed it, could be, i am only a human being :-)

 

last for today, at maverick.

i know of this tactic, the cheap shot, but know take into account that this is only simulated, and was never done in real life. out of the 17 shot aim120 in real life, 11 were shot in a bfm range, which makes 6 shot at bvr ranges. 10 missles of all the 17 shot were a hit, and i can only remember 2 missiles in bvr that have hit for sure. that was a double kill that occured over kosovo 1999. do not know about any other, but sure is, that when a missile is shot at a bfm range, missiles like the aim120, then we talk about 4 nm, approximatly, depends on the targetsize and aspect, but in RL most of the kills were made in bfm ranges, so where is the tactic of a cheap shot there?

and the worst acctually is, that most of the pilots had to wait for an autentification of thier target by awacs. the first aim120 kill was made by an f16 on a mig25 in 1992, and the pilot had to wait and wait and wait, but finally he got the clearence, so as far i can remember, he shot at 8 miles and killed at 3nm, something like that, i would have to look that up again.

and yes, cheapshots are valid, but these cheapshots are done in the missles randar range, cause the missle picks something up and many many restrictions are set up, so that you do not kill on accident a freindly. the engagment has to be so clear that you could acctually say, it is a textbook engagement. why this cheapshot has to be done in a certain range, in a pitbull range of the missle, cause when there is nothing the missles picks up or it gets no datalink information, then after some certain time, the missle shuts off, that info i have. so you see, a cheapshot is nothing that is just like shoot the missile and turn at real big ranges :-)

 

still thanks for all the respect and that this is not taken as an offence :-)

[GGTharos]

the thing about firing 2 missles to make sure it is a perfect kill, cause one missle might not be enough, well this is maybe omething that could be fixed in fc3, maybe, i do not know, but when a a2a fighter is hit by a missle, the fragments really destroy not only hyraulics, nope it is way more then that.

 

Actually double-tapping can be a very RL tactic. It's just not necessarily useful (ie. wasteful) depending on what you're trying to achieve. Missiles aren't guaranteed to kill a bandit - because they can miss and prox fuze, thus by necessity causing less damage than a direct hit past some (fairly small) distance. Aircraft surviving hits is not unrealistic. Sure, the proportion might be off, but it's not a big deal. If your tactics are ok, it won't matter that he's still flying.

 

so maybe there is a way to make such things more real, or more effectiv, depends on the devs what they can do about this issue.

 

Probably nothing much right now (my guess), but whatever it is they do will still not guarantee a dead bandit - because it shouldn't.

 

i know of this tactic, the cheap shot, but know take into account that this is only simulated, and was never done in real life.

 

It will absolutely be done if necessary - this is exactly why they train for it. I wouldn't expect the devs to be 'turning off' missiles because you think it's a good solution ;)

 

A real solution would do something much better.

 

out of the 17 shot aim120 in real life, 11 were shot in a bfm range, which makes 6 shot at bvr ranges. 10 missles of all the 17 shot were a hit, and i can only remember 2 missiles in bvr that have hit for sure.

 

Some of those were launched out of parameters (or poor parameters in some respect) deliberately (I recall 2) and some not-so-deliberately (at least one that I know of) and probably shouldn't be counted in this ratio if you're really looking for missile effectiveness ratios.

 

but in RL most of the kills were made in bfm ranges, so where is the tactic of a cheap shot there?

 

No, these are active off the rail. Some shots that were fired BVR hit when the range was starting to close to WVR.

 

the first aim120 kill was made by an f16 on a mig25 in 1992, and the pilot had to wait and wait and wait, but finally he got the clearence, so as far i can remember, he shot at 8 miles and killed at 3nm, something like that, i would have to look that up again.

 

Quite right. You have to go through the ID matrix before you may launch.

 

and yes, cheapshots are valid, but these cheapshots are done in the missles randar range,

 

 

No, they're not. Cheapshot means the missile has reached HPRF range, but not MPRF range. So basically it isn't 'pitbull' and may not have detected a target yet.

 

cause the missle picks something up and many many restrictions are set up, so that you do not kill on accident a freindly.

 

Yes, those restrictions are 'don't shoot where the friendlies are' ;) The missile knows nothing about who's who.

 

why this cheapshot has to be done in a certain range, in a pitbull range of the missle, cause when there is nothing the missles picks up or it gets no datalink information, then after some certain time, the missle shuts off, that info i have. so you see, a cheapshot is nothing that is just like shoot the missile and turn at real big ranges

 

Actually yes, it is. A cheapshot does not have to occur deliberately. An enemy jammer could cause your radar to lose lock, and the datalink might go with it. But it doesn't stop there, the following things may happen:

 

The radar continues generating the datalink based on frame memory. It may also advise the missile that there is ECM at work, or not - who knows ... this means the datalink could continue as long as half a minute, using a predicted target flight path.

 

If the datalink is gone, the missile will use its INU to reach the fly-out point and activate its radar and search for the target. Will it shut off in 3 sec if it doesn't find anything? I'm not entirely convinced of this, I've heard other things, vague as they were. I'm not even sure that 3 sec is enough time to scan the whole basket, depending on when the last good target position update was received.

 

The cheapshot is a tactic that is less accurate, but is used to keep more distance if desired, especially if you are either forced to, or if you are up against a non-maneuvering target, in which case the INU will get the 120 where it needs to be to detect the target.

[borchi_2b]

that correct, a non moving target,but as far we talk about tactics, we all know to survive a combat scenario you have to move, point one.

2nd is, flexabilty, which is the key to airpower.

 

about the missle information, i would have to get back to the guy in our squad, and talk to him about it again, to make a comment to that stated above. there are so many things that can happen and a missle that is shot in a range outside the pitbull range is most likely to miss, thats what i know from some source.

and yes you are right that cheapshot scenarios are trained, but still this is all simulated and in a real shoot out with pilots on both sides feared of dying, such scenario of cheap shot, well it is valid, but the main tactic will be something diffrent, cause it is allready stated in the wiki.com page about the aim120:

 

Similarly armed targets

 

The other main engagement scenario is against other aircraft with fire-and-forget missiles like the Vympel R-77 (NATO AA-12 "Adder") — perhaps MiG-29s, Su-27s or similar. In this case engagement is very much down to teamwork and could be described as "a game of chicken." Both flights of aircraft can fire their missiles at each other beyond visual range (BVR), but then face the problem that if they continue to track the target aircraft in order to provide mid-course updates for the missile's flight, they are also flying into their opponents' missiles. Although in this regard the RVV-AE (which is the missile's export name or R-77 the official Russian Air force designation) does have an advantage as it has a greater range than the AMRAAM (when the AIM-120D is deployed the AMRAAM will have 30+ miles more range than the standard R-77[citation needed] but much less than the ramjet powered R-77M and the Meteor missiles which will also enter service along with AIM-120D). This assumes of course that all aircraft will detect each other.

 

and this is a very real scenario and nothing that is made up, although wiki is not a realyable source at many points, but the picture given, that a fact. so cheapshots, well, i guess when you end up in such a situation, way to much went wrong in the fight, or the opponents had superior tactics, and it will be at a high possibility that you get killed after your cheap shot.

 

i think most of the times, and thats hard to meassure, we feel that fc2 resembales reality, which it does not, so thats why i am keen to know what ED comes up with as a fighter :-), to see how verything works out as a sim :-)

 

ahh and by the way, a non moving target would be c17, an50 or bombers, in modern days. just think about the fact that tactics means moving, notching, and so on and so on, so a valid cheapshot, hmm, i think thats some belony which the generals would like to be effective, but i also think that they know, that the effectivnes of such a shot is very very limited.

 

so cheapshot are more a dream to me :-), like it would be a dream to have a missle that is some what smart and can make own decisions, like switching between PARH, ARH and IR lock, just decided on the tactic which would employ best, but this is just a dream i think, cause i do not know how this should be managed by some computer, there needs to be human to determin what is best at which situation, and so on.

 

 

 

still thanks for listening

 

edit:

for the effectivnes of the missiles in lomac, well maybe something about the opponents ablitiy to shoot missiles after a hit, thats something the defs could think about, cause alot of systems are destroyed after a hit even when the plane is still able to fyl, it will not be able to fight in any means anymore, cause even when a radar would work and the weapon cpu would work to, no pilot knows if a missile shot would be save anymore, it might rip the plane appart or even start the fuelleak on fire :-)

[GGTharos]

Non-maneuvering targets can be a suicide flight of 8-16 MiG-21/23/29's trying to bypass you at mach 2 without much fighting to stick something in your awacs.

 

Generals? It's the pilots who develop and practice these tactics. Cheapshots are used because they can make things work, not because someone has a pipe dream. What on earth are you talking about now?

[borchi_2b]

well it could be, but it could also be a comet send to us by some alien force :-)

 

just joking

[GGTharos]

Well, we all saw how good AMRAAMs do in independence day ... ;)

[borchi_2b]

well thats true, as far the shields are down.

 

this set to our technologie, well the shield could be seen as ECCM :-)

 

but i like your understanding for jokes :lol:

[104th_Maverick]

Thanks Borchi... just reinforced what I originally thought..... you have no idea what your talking about.

 

Next time don't jack the OPFOR thread with your wiki tactics

[Cali]

plus the "Spamming missiles doesn't make you good", kind of words, I guess I am in the rong movie here....You guys wanna talk RL, ask youre pilot Cali what he does when a fullscale war brakes out? Going home with the tools, when he is engaged?

 

And ask him aswell, if he should shoot only one missile or more on a single enemy? Wanna hear the answer, btw., I know it already....

 

And, different events, with different rules, if you have limited stockpile, then you have to change tactics simple it is, as youre enemy has do to aswell......nice story about 60 AIM-120`s been shot lol....

 

 

No need to blow your top Mogas, I know how you fly, that's why I ask about the bases being very close together. We have all seen many of times where 1 missile doesn't do the job or it just misses, that's why they are called "missiles". I fire 2 missiles at people, but normally not within a second of each other unless I'm firing at more then 1 bandit. There are plenty of war books out there and I have read more then a few of them. I never read that they spammed missiles during any engagement. I have said this many times before.......this is a game and it's for our entertainment! Most people don't have time to fly realistically.

 

;1353669']

No one said it did and I agree with you all the way, and as you correctly pointed out 3Sqn do fly with 8x120 I've seen it many times although I will concede you guys do carry 7s more than we do... sadly however this too doesn't make you 'good' either

 

I see some very clever flying from 3Sqn, have done so many times I really rate you guys but as I'm sure you appreciate Cali there is no set rules for an engagement what works in one situation might not work in an another.... sometimes trying to be smart gets you killed and if you don't take your shot your going to end up with an Eagle screaming up your 6 inside 10 miles.

 

1st off, thanks for the kind words. We try to fly as best we can while learning from real fighter pilots, to include the ones in our squad and and info that we get from other sources. Like I said, noramlly the only time we fly with 8x120's is if we are outnumbered and only a few people on our side or just 3Sqn pilots. That way we know we aren't going to have a missile go after a friendly. I know there are no set rules and there is nothing wrong with spamming, it works sometimes. You guys are a hard bunch to fight against, I don't think I have ever been spammed by you guys, if I was it was because more then one of you fired at me.

 

 

;1353669']

It is incredibly easy for anyone who knows what they are doing to NOT get killed by someone spamming in an F-15... to put it bluntly if you get killed by someone firing 3-4 120s on you from 20 miles.... you don't know what your doing and its your own fault your dead.

 

I agree on this, if you think or know you have an F-15 20nm from you, you need to expect an inbound TWS 120! Too many times people fly right into an incoming missile.

[borchi_2b]

But one last point to comment, and that is concerning max ping, lagging, etc.. I am very grateful for the possibility to bring together ppl from all over the world, even if that may cause some troubles with game performance and proud that OPFOR is a platform for that. To provide something for the whole community (as close to whole one can get, nanona) is most important, and in that sense I am missing german squadrons very much. That is also why I approached you about the birthday event - I'd like to fly against you.. And the more restrictions we put, the less propable that we will fly against the many friends out there... There are so many different events, not only by us, in the community by many squads - and OPFOR is meant to bring a braught group together - other events may focus on other things.

 

So, once more: get your german b's out of the reserve and join us and other events! Better fly together, spend time together and waste some missiles in FC2 then waste real time waiting for FC3 The community is small enough and it would be a pitty to seperate it even more!

 

S!

 

hey ironmike, i posted about inviting international squads for out birthday event, but i am not in charge of the event or a member of the hq. the basic answer was, no we do not want that, but i do not really understand that, cause i alos pointed out, that we should invite the 51st too, cause we flew a couple of times against them in squadwars.

 

well i talk to my ingman if he want to set up such campaign again, like we did before but for more then ust our squad internal.

if so, i will invite specific squads for the event, but when we make such event, for sure there will be more flights, just have to think about the timing and how many flights we want to make in which timeperiod etc etc. it is a ton of workload, and yes i am a bit sad about the fact, that they do not want other squad from other countries right now, cuase the german community has only a few active squads left, which there are, 33rd, 31st, vjg71, vjs161, and the jabog 32nd. that are squads i knowof, which fly online, but most of them chrinked in sise, like we did too. it sometime seem that the golden days are over, but who knows. i really would love to make a big event with more then just one day, more something that bulits up in some way, judged by the system of my wingamn and me developed, but who knows.

 

i just talked to my wingman and he wants to wit for fc3, cause this would give us more possibilities, his answer to my idea, so well it looks like that there will come up something with fc3, which maybe will be mindblowing :-)

 

@mav:

well whatever man. if you think i only use wiki, thats none of my serious resource, but the once available for puplic ;-)

and for you beeing a hero, shooting down reallife IPs, well, good for you, but we have a real f4 pilot who will transition to the eurofighter, or maybe allready did, in our squad, and guess what, in bfm, i was able to kick his butt gunzo 8:3, in bfm gunz and IR we were equal, and in bvr, he learned something from me and i learned something from him, so this is how it should be. to learn from each other, not just say, ohh i am an ace who even shots down real IP in virtual skies. never forget, in RL they have also g forces, which we will not sustian that well like they do, so we would probably kill ourselfs faster then they could say "tally ho bandit1"

 

lets keep this constructive

 

and for ironmike, i see that with the tactics, what you mentioned, thats why i did not say to much about it :-)

but when you are overrun, then you should have an open gap when all thier planes are rtb. i could see that overrun at the first engagement, it was huge, but well with this force, the red side should have managed better, in my oppinion, but well for the missile spamming, both sides did that, not only blue, thats for sure :-), only diffrence is 70 missiles, which is at a near total of 800 missiles shot in an event, less then 10%, which shows me, that both sides spammed :-)

so this is not just pointed to the blue side.

[104th_Maverick]

we have a real f4 pilot who will transition to the eurofighter, or maybe allready did, in our squad, and guess what, in bfm, i was able to kick his butt gunzo 8:3

 

 

OMFG DUDE WTF!!! You must have mad skills bro AND super knowledge :thumbup:

 

I can't compete with that sh1t

 

Borchi I take it all back mate .... your the MAN!

 

Mogas, Ironmike everything this guy says is right we would be wise to follow his advice on all matters

Edited December 18, 2011 by [Maverick]