Joker_Her3 Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 So yeah,i just got DCS:A-10 and DSC:Black shark from the recent steam sale. I don't have any hardware for these games whatsoever,and i have NONE experience in flying with joysticks. I have been gathering information about different joysticks and stuff,and i came down to 2 possibilities: Saitek x52 Pro Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog (Do not tell me there is a x65,i know it,i simply CANNOT use without the joystick actually moving,it's un-natural) As for joysticks,but due to me not having enough money to get the Warthog,i'll go with the x52 pro.Will it be good enough to use it? Also i have additional questions : Are rudder pedals really needed,or i can pass them for now?(i have limited budget atm) Are MFD's so good,and can they be used for a different sim except A-10?(The MFD's Cougar for A-10C) Can i play without TrackIR 5 for a while(until Christhmas)Is is so bad without it? Also what happens if buy the TrackIR 5 pro without the thing on your headset?Can u use it? Thanks. (I'm not to keen on getting MFD's and TrackIR 5 atm,cause of the terrible pricing i get in my region -_-)
MTFDarkEagle Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 Yes! The X52 is a good starting HOTAS! - The X52 has a twisting stick which acts as rudder, which is fine, but I would recommend rudder pedals in the future. - Yes - Yes you can, but this really is nr.1 to buy after the HOTAS. You'll understand why when you have it :) ) Lukas - "TIN TIN" - 9th Shrek Air Strike Squadron TIN TIN's Cockpit thread
agrasyuk Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) x52pro is quite good solution for the money (i had the non pro before moving to TMWH). rudder input is needed for the BS(black shark), the twist of the x52 will be somewhat sufficient for that . you can still fly while saving up for pedals, eventually you will want them. cougar MFDs are very nice for the a10, but also not mandatory, you still will be using mouse for panels and UFC, might as well click those virtual MFCDs. but they are not really expensive and nice to have for other sims as well. i probably would say TIR is number two priority after the joystick. took some time to get used to, but i can't fly without it. the motion become so natural i terribly miss it in games like BF3. i keep moving my head thinking "WTF it is the view not moving!" lol Edited November 29, 2011 by agrasyuk Anton. My pit build thread . Simple and cheap UFC project
nemises Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 - Yes, the X52 will be fine (though, of course, the warthog will be better!) I think probably the largest proportion of people on this board use an X52..I use an X52 and it is great. - You don't "need" rudder pedals...though they are of course usefull (especially for the Shark), but the twist grip on the X52 will make a perfectly fine rudder axis once you get used to it. - TrackIR is the "must" have IMHO...just only behind a HOTAS (such as the x52) in importance... aim to get this !... The TrackIr can operate in 2 modes, 1 that uses IR LED's attached to your head (active tracking, this is the thing attached to you headset), and one that uses IR reflectors attached to your head (passive, this is why you see pictures of people wearing caps with white tape on them) ... both work fine, though in an environment where there is a lot of background IR sources (TV, windows etc..) the Active mode will work better.... You can definately play without Trackir for a bit...but once you have it, you will NEVER be able to play without it again ;)
Ricardo_ST Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 RE: Rudders don't necessarily need them with the X52/X45. The X52 stick will twist iirc. The X45 has the rudder option on the throttle - like a rocker of sorts that works fine. RE: TIR5 There are 2 ways the camera gets input. One is with reflective tape attached to a metal thing that you sit on your ball cap. (if you're like me, you lose the metal thing and place 3 pieces arranged in a triangle and pasted to your forehead - works to ward off random children, cute chicks, UFO's, and the occasional black helicopter). The other way is with the clip - which the camera picks up the 3 points of light/energy/photons/magic fur/whatever. You get more precision with the side clip, but the hat thing works fine in most cases. Get a TIR 5 regardless the costs. -ric
Joker_Her3 Posted November 29, 2011 Author Posted November 29, 2011 Thanks for the real fast answers,i will be getting the X52 in 3-4 days then and i think i will have enough budget to get MFD's too. As for the TrackIR,i know it's great and all that,but hopefully i will get one at Christmas.. And until then,i found this : http://facetracknoir.sourceforge.net/home/default.htm So basically that does the same job as the TrackIR5(YES,not that accurate and good)however i guess i could use it until i get TrackIR?
ironstrike Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 Congrats on the purchases, and I hope you find both A-10 and Black Shark as enjoyable as the rest of us! :D The X52 Pro will be perfectly fine for both - don't listen to anyone who tells you that you "must have" the Warthog. I'd go so far as to say that if you're on a budget, see if you can find the regular X-52 instead. I've used both and they're identical in function; the Pro variant is colored differently, has a higher build quality and the buttons on the throttle unit framing the display can be made moderately useful unlike the non-Pro variant, where they are permanently useless. Otherwise they're identical. If you want to save more money, get the non-Pro and you'll still have an excellent stick and throttle. Both variants of the X-52 have twist sticks so you don't need rudder pedals either. Sure they add to immersion and ultimately are a nice addition for precise flight control. Again though, if someone tells you that pedals are an absolute necessity you can safely discount any future claims they make because they are clearly out of touch with reality. ;) I haven't had the opportunity to try the MFDs myself, but they are on my to-buy list eventually. Could be a lot of fun. Just fyi in case you missed it since you say you're new to these sorts of games and their hardware: the MFDs don't actually have screens. They're merely frames with the functioning MFD buttons. Screens are separate and many crafty modders have combined them quite effectively, but the MFD pack itself is just buttons with insert cards to make them "look neat." Lastly, the head tracker. Good news! You have options other than the over-priced TrackIR 5. FreeTrack http://www.free-track.net/english/ is one such way to go and the method I use, it functions identically to TrackIR. Like TrackIR, FreeTrack looks for bright spots on either a cap or a side-mounted clip. You'll have to build that yourself, but parts are dirt cheap and helpful forumites are happy to provide parts lists and instructions. If you go the FreeTrack/TrackIR 5 route, you can absolutely use it without a headset clip. In fact that is a relatively recent addition to the TrackIR product lineup: traditionally you would wear an array on top of a baseball cap or similar. The headset clip was added because many people play with large headphones already and this simplifies the things they have to wear. I prefer a surround sound system, but to each their own. The even more interesting option (but one I've been too lazy to configure since my FreeTrack setup works perfectly) is FaceTrackNoIR: http://facetracknoir.sourceforge.net/home/default.htm This one omits the reflective/illuminated points method of FreeTrack and TrackIR entirely and just goes straight for facial recognition to detect where you are looking! Slightly more processor intensive than the other two methods, but you don't need to wear any hardware, and that alone is worth something. FreeTrack and FaceTrackNoIR both require a webcam, and sometimes compatibility can give you issues, so if you don't already have one and want to go that route I'd suggest looking into particular cameras that other people have used. If you do already have one, FaceTrackNoIR will cost you nothing to try. Opensource for the win. ;) I would personally rate a headtracker of any kind as more important than pedals, to be honest. I have friends who fly without either, but I can't go back to not having a headtracker; it has become instinctive now to try to look around whenever I am flying. I can deal with a twist stick if I have to, but not being able to look around is tough. If you're going to purchase either, I'd recommend the headtracker first! Hoggit reddit.com/r/hoggit
kylania Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 You must have TrackIR with the ProClip. You must have the TM Warthog. You must have rudder pedals (since the Warthog doesn't have rudder). Anyone telling you anything else is poor and wishes they had the Warthog. :) You can "get by" with the X52 or a free track webcam workaround and the x and z keys, but really... to get the most out of the game and play it mostly stress free and immersively, you need all of the above if you can at all afford it. TrackIR completely changes the game for you. The Warthog absolutely changes the game for you. Rudder pedals help you avoid taking hands off HOTAS. The X52 is a superb joystick and works really well and has great features however if you can afford it get the Warthog. Get it. Do it. Now. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Christmas Cheer - A Landing Practice Mission : Beta Paint Schemes : HOTAS Keyboard Map : Bingo Fuel - A DCS A-10C Movie
agrasyuk Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 kylania, with some reservation i would agree with you, partially, in a way, but the guy just got the sim. what if he finds that he is not into study level simulators? all that investment will not provide enjoyment. then we all are in different financial situations, as he said the price of TIR is not trivial for him and you say WH? better x52 and no TIR then no flying at all, no? Anton. My pit build thread . Simple and cheap UFC project
metalnwood Posted November 29, 2011 Posted November 29, 2011 (edited) I agree with kylania to some extent as well. I dont know the cost of gear where he is but I would always get the TM WH over the x52 and MFD's any day. Once the x52 is bought it's a harder proposition to replace it with the WH. If he doesnt like the sim so be it but given he is oging to spend as much $$ as he intentds to I would get the WH up front if funds in hand. Use the mouse for the mfd's :) I think because he is new to it all that the WH will help immensly when using the manual and asking for help, people will refer to dms, tms china hat etc and having the proper controls will be so much useful learning. Edited November 29, 2011 by metalnwood
wess24m Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 coming from a x52 pro to a tm warthog, Id have to agree about the difference, WH is AMAZING but i used the 52 pro for years and still was fun in any sim. It sounds like this is his first sim so he's gonna have alot of work ahead of him to learn to fly with a-10c, I've been flying since commodore 64 and a-10c took a minute to get proficient at. I'd go for the x52 and TIR being he's new to the hobby.
metalnwood Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 I am not sure that being new to the sim means he can't try to have the best. I would agree that if I was doing some other activity where the more expensive gear doesn't provide any advantage to a beginner, e.g. a really aerobatic paraglider wont help a beginner even though it might be better gear than entry level. The WH will help anyone at any level. It wouldnt be wasted on a newcomer. Once again - if he is going to spend that much money anyway. I wouldnt push if it was outside budget but that didnt seem to be the case.
HydroToad Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 If you do already have one, FaceTrackNoIR will cost you nothing to try. Opensource for the win. ;) The face tracking it uses (FaceAPI) is closed source though.
Joker_Her3 Posted November 30, 2011 Author Posted November 30, 2011 Thanks to everyone,i am sure the Warthog,TrackIR,MFD's and rudder pedals are awesome and all.. Unfortunately i don't have either the time,either the money to enjoy it fully.I have 2-3 hours at most a day for flying,and as i have never played flight sims,yesterday at the flight missions i was just like .. : O_O.. So the learning curve is really big,and i will be learning this game for alot of time,and if i still am enjoying it,i will then buy all the other stuff. Unfortunately as for the moment i can only afford the X52 pro joystick and POSSIBLY MFD's.
Supersheep Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 Unfortunately as for the moment i can only afford the X52 pro joystick and POSSIBLY MFD's. My opinion: Go for a TrackIR instead of the MFDs. I cannot imagine flying without them (tried to for some time), but I am delaying the MFDs as they are not really essential. Exept you succeed in setting up FreeTrack ok, that is. Supersheep The PVC Pipe Joystick Stand How to thread
wess24m Posted November 30, 2011 Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) I am not sure that being new to the sim means he can't try to have the best. I would agree that if I was doing some other activity where the more expensive gear doesn't provide any advantage to a beginner, e.g. a really aerobatic paraglider wont help a beginner even though it might be better gear than entry level. The WH will help anyone at any level. It wouldnt be wasted on a newcomer. Once again - if he is going to spend that much money anyway. I wouldnt push if it was outside budget but that didnt seem to be the case. If you were getting into a new hobby say...r/c airplanes..you wouldn't wanna go out and buy a $600+ remote to learn on, I'd say start off with the x52 because it's a great hotas and see if you'd like to get further into flight sims. I use the WH for every flight game, heck even use it for flying in BF3 but if I didn't fly BMS falcon or A-10C it's kinda overkill for 90% of other sims. I guess if he does buy the WH and doesn't end up flying it would be a cheap used deal for somebody on this board haha I think theres a conspiracy. Edited November 30, 2011 by wess24m edit
BigBANGtheory Posted December 1, 2011 Posted December 1, 2011 And until then,i found this : http://facetracknoir.sourceforge.net/home/default.htm So basically that does the same job as the TrackIR5(YES,not that accurate and good)however i guess i could use it until i get TrackIR? If you have a webcam already then go for it with FTNoIR, but I'll tell you now the difference is quite substantial compared to a TRIR5. If you want a cheap solution to headtracking that you can actually use in game (as opposed to just playing about on the ground) then you are probably better off with FreeTrack and buying a 2nd hand PS3Eye cam off ebay. You don't need headtracking to start off but it is something that adds a whole new dimension to the sim and understandibly players that do have it wouldn't go back. Personally I went the Hotas > Pedals > Headtracking route. Now I'm working on custom mounting options for the joystick....
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