Drone aircraft downed in Iran

[GGTharos]

They are. Almost all communication is through SATCOM unless there is an airborne command post nearby (or it's flying pretty close to base).

 

AFAIK, TO/Landing are automated, as is the flight plan. If the UAV loses conenction, it will function according to its programming - ie. RTB immediately or continue on its flight plan doing whatever it was supposed to do.

 

I think a relatively good indicator of how autonomous a UAV can be would be to look up the D-21 recon drone (launched from SR-71). While this particular effort was, I believe, pretty much a failure, it still gives you a hint or two.

 

I don't know where the Flight Control signals come from? For this kind of drones, I doubt that it is coming through satellites.

[RIPTIDE]

Well, GPS satellite is some 15 000 miles above the Earth and its transmission power is just few kilowatts. I doubt that it takes much of power to jam that kind of a signal. Although I would assume that these aircraft mainly rely on Inertial navigation.

 

I don't know where the Flight Control signals come from? For this kind of drones, I doubt that it is coming through satellites.

Flight controllers are stationed in CONUS. Satellite seems like the only option?

[jmod]

RQ-170

 

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/technology/sci-tech/us-drone-missing-in-iran-was-part-of-cia-spy-operation/story-fn5iztw3-1226216200218

 

What was that?

How that happened?

Edited December 7, 2011 by jmod

[RIPTIDE]

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=82580

[jmod]

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1310919655001/top-secret-stealth-drone-captured-by-iran

 

I didn't know Usama bin Laden's mission captured by that!

DCS: RQ-170 would be a good idea. :)

Edited December 7, 2011 by jmod

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

They are. Almost all communication is through SATCOM unless there is an airborne command post nearby (or it's flying pretty close to base).

That's what I am talking about.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Flight controllers are stationed in CONUS. Satellite seems like the only option?

I am sure satellite communication does something, but my question is where do the flight control signals to the actual aircraft coming from? When it comes to Afghanistan, it does not really matter because Taliban does not have knowledge nor equipment to do anything against advanced communication technologies.

 

But Iran is completely different story.

 

Also, I don't think that it is that difficult to radar-detect this kind of UAV. Unless there is some serious jamming going on at the same time.

[GGTharos]

The UAV is controlled by SATCOM. The signals come 'from the sky' if that's what you mean. It isn't going to get hacked one way or another, doesn't matter what Iran does.

Generally it has been said that the RQ-170 is a command-post type UAV, rather than a sureveillance UAV. It is used in Afganistan to aid and observe friendly forces. Of course, its mission payload is also supposedly modular, so who knows what types of sensors it was carrying - could have been packing a side-looking radar.

 

As for detecting this with radar - that would be quite hard, given that it is a stealth aircraft. No one has ever said that detecting stealth aircraft is easy - and that's the point.

[159th_Falcon]

As for detecting this with radar - that would be quite hard, given that it is a stealth aircraft. No one has ever said that detecting stealth aircraft is easy - and that's the point.

 

I dare to say its easy to detect stealth aircraft, at least if you have access to an SMART L radar.

(and associated systems ofcourse)

Years ago someone from the Dutch navy told me they picked up an F-117 @ 80km.

And it was still under testing/development and results were expected to improve dramatically after research and updates.

 

Doubt that Iran has anything that comes even close to this kind of radar though.

 

But still, stealth is not the magic thing many people believe it to be.

[GGTharos]

I dare to say its easy to detect stealth aircraft, at least if you have access to an SMART L radar.

(and associated systems ofcourse)

 

No, it isn't. The math is public domain, you can do it yourself :)

 

Years ago someone from the Dutch navy told me they picked up an F-117 @ 80km.

 

You're aware that most stealth planes put on a reflector so they -can- be picked up, unless in red flags/deployed/combat, right?

 

But still, stealth is not the magic thing many people believe it to be.

 

True, some people believe in magical radar instead :)

[Emmer]

[159th_Falcon]

No, it isn't. The math is public domain, you can do it yourself :)

 

 

 

You're aware that most stealth planes put on a reflector so they -can- be picked up, unless in red flags/deployed/combat, right?

 

 

 

True, some people believe in magical radar instead :)

 

No, i can't do the math myself, that's why i want the associated equipment whit the radar. So it does the math for me:)

 

 

Wasn't aware of the reflector, but during that instance it wasn't on, the F-117 was never ment to be picked up.

 

No magical radar here GG, just plain fact as following links will prove;

 

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?100028-Dutch-Thales-upgrades-Smart-L

http://www.thales-nederland.nl/nl/news/archive/2006/December-08-2006.shtml

http://www.thalesgroup.com/Countries/Netherlands/Documents/Datasheet_SMART-L/?LangType=2057

Last link is an official data sheet as published on the site of Thales.

 

In short, here are some numbers;

November/December 2006, De Zevenprovincien class frigate of The Netherlands is near Hawai.

Tests show it can pick up ballistic missile @ launch 300 km away.

 

The American Tactical Group Supervisor Lex Hughes reacted astonished, in an announcement he said: "In this area of expertise you are about 6 years ahead of us".

From the data sheet;

Performance;

military patrol aircraft ~ 400km

Stealth missile ~ 65km

 

As you see, no magic radar, just an existing one.

[GGTharos]

You're making it out to be magical due to misinterpretation. A "Stealth" (note they put it in quotes in the data sheet) missile actually has a larger RCS than an F-117 by an order of magnitude ... about 0.2~0.1m^2, where the F-117 falls in the 0.01 category which means you'd detect at between a quarter to half the range you'd pick up the missile at, IIRC my math for this.

 

But if that isn't enough (because hey, who knows just /what/ 'stealth' missiles it is they're talking about), let's talk about how much stealthier an F-117 is compared to a patrol aircraft. What do you think, would it be detected at 1/10th the range? Or would it be detected at 1/8'th range that you would detect say, a fighter, which is again detectable at maybe 1/2 the range of a patrol aircraft (naturally exact distances depending on many factors). There's no way this radar can track an F-117 at 80km /unless/ that F-117 was carrying a reflector /or/ its stealth is not all-aspect (There are a couple other possibilities, but those all depend on it being 1 gen stealth, and they wouldn't really apply to newer stealth aircraft).

 

Finally, ballistic missiles are huge. Early warning radars pick'em up from 5000km :)

Edited December 7, 2011 by GGTharos

[159th_Falcon]

You're making it out to be magical due to misinterpretation. A "Stealth" (note they put it in quotes in the data sheet) missile actually has a larger RCS than an F-117 by an order of magnitude ... about 0.2~0.1m^2, where the F-117 falls in the 0.01 category.

 

Finally, ballistic missiles are huge. Early warning radars pick'em up from 5000km :)

In that case it would be Thales making it magical, im just writing what i have read somewhere.

And i'm afraid i missed the quotes.

 

Ty for the info, ~S~

[GGTharos]

Thales isn't making it magical. You just have to know what it is they're talking about, that's all. 'Stealth' missiles are low observable, not stealth in the sense that an F-22 is stealth.

[topol-m]

 

Finally, ballistic missiles are huge. Early warning radars pick'em up from 5000km :)

 

Not that huge, they have the length of a fighter jet but are much thinner 1.5-2m in diameter. It would be interesting to find out their RCS, comparing it to the RCS of a fighter or F117 we could theorize at what distance these can be picked up by EWRs.

Edited December 7, 2011 by topol-m

[GGTharos]

They'd easily have fighter jet RCS or more side-on.

[topol-m]

They'd easily have fighter jet RCS or more side-on.

 

Not good at math but if they can detect a fighter jet at 5000km then doing the math what approximately would be the detection distance against F117, F-22, F-35?

[GGTharos]

About 1/8th the range, conservatively speaking (this should be the basic measure against anyhing, ie. if your mig picks up an F-15 at 80km, it'll pick up an F-22 at 10km. Bad news). However, these types of radars are also looking high above the horizon or using other tricks to track/detect said missiles, and while I'm sure they can track aircraft, they're a lot harder to deal with. Such radars are also very sensitive to clutter last I heard, which makes their ability to pick up a stealth fighter poor. Like they say, 'the devil is in the details'.

[topol-m]

thanks, btw have you read anything about JASSM's RCS? It's OT I know, I'm just curious with the mass integration of CIWS (land, mobile, sea) + all kinds of radars, what do cruise missiles count on nowadays :)

[nscode]

I guess that ICBM's flight path makes them easier to filter out.

[GGTharos]

First of all, cruise missiles can fly low enough that detection is delayed significantly simply due to radar horizon. They can fly right between your defenses and only face terminal defenses, possibly with a surprise attack. This minimizes defensive time among other things, and low RCS would make them harder to pick out of clutter. Combine this with attacks from multiple directions and you get trouble.

 

I'll point out that sometimes CMs will be made to fly high to extend range, and fly the final leg at low altitude ... in this case RCS is a bigger deal still.

 

thanks, btw have you read anything about JASSM's RCS? It's OT I know, I'm just curious with the mass integration of CIWS (land, mobile, sea) + all kinds of radars, what do cruise missiles count on nowadays :)

[Jona33]

Iran's showing off the drone apparently.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16098562

[topol-m]

Ok how the hell could that thing fall from the skies and remain so undamaged?

[MoGas]

That looks a bit weird to me.....more like a mockup lol instead of a real one. The color is not grey either or what is going on?