Linux - Native or via Wine

[samirpiccolotto]

Hey, before everything, have a nice 2012!

 

DCS, please, i do love your games, and have A-10 and Black Shark 2, both originals (A10 from Steam and BS2 bought from you)! We're approachin year 2012... ...I don't support piracy nor slavery; i don't like Windows; actually, i do HATE it. I dont want to keep using windows; and i have a "non-original" one on my PC.

The only reason i am forced to have windows on my computer = DCS games! C'mon! I am sick of being a Microsoft slave! Would it kill you guyz to release a linux version of A10 and BS2 ??? For the bunkers sake!!!

We all know linux is stable; we have nvidia and ati drivers for it, with accelerated video rendering... I am here, asking you for a favor. Even if i'd need to buy again the game! I'd spend 100US$ again on these games; but would never spend 5 bucks on a Microsoft Windows license.

 

If you have no time ($) or interest to make a native linux client, would you mind to, at least, let us play it on Wine???????

 

And, if you need a beta tester, or someone to help you guyz with linux, i have more than 12 years of experience with this O.S. (from slackware and debian to gentoo; fedora; opensuse; centos; ubuntu...)

 

Please, try to, at least, think about it! The Linux comunity would fall in love, since, usually, most Linux users enjoy reading and dealing with not casual things.

 

You develop hardcore games, for hardcore people! Why not release it for a ultra hardcore OS, that will boost even more DCS's name and quality; and , also, your games quality and the number of MODs???

 

At least, try to think about it!!!

 

Thanks, and, happy 2012! Or, 2112 if you enjoy Rush music! xD

[Falcon_S]

+1

 

Support.

[manfrez01]

I run, fedora 15!!!some times.

will be awesome see dcs series on that os,I hope they consider you propouse, man!!

+1

Edited December 31, 2011 by manfrez01
more info

[sobek]

AFAIK the devs really want it to at least run in virtualised environments, but for technical reasons were not able to make it, yet.

[EtherealN]

Get about 10 or 20 times bigger market penetration on the entertainment desktop and I suspect this might possibly be something that could be seriously considered... ;)

 

Unfortunately, until then, the Linux platform is just not big enough. As far as being marketable, I suggest MacOS would happen first as well. (And it should be recalled that EVE Online, which gets monthly subs from users to fund development, eventually had to cancel it's Linux client since it was just too much work.)

 

If the simulator was OpenGL then it might have been easier, but right now I suspect it would require WAY too much work for too little return.

 

(Also, tester team does have a good crop of Linux nerds on hand already, me one of them. :P )

[AlphaOneSix]

I've got more Linux experience than Windows. :P

[EtherealN]

But that's just because you're one of them weird Apple guys, innit? :D

[sobek]

Unfortunately, until then, the Linux platform is just not big enough.

 

Client side, agreed. Server side, YGBSM! :)

 

Funny sidenote, the keyboarder in my band uses a macbook which recently died because some of the GPU solding points broke. As a last resort, he tried to resolder them by putting the pcb with the chip in the oven at 200°, now it works again :D

Edited December 31, 2011 by sobek

[EtherealN]

Well, that's why I said "enterntainment desktop". :P

 

But I suspect a Linux dedi server exe isn't what he's after. :D

 

Funny sidenote, the keyboarder in my band uses a macbook which recently died because some of the GPU solding points broke. As a last resort, he tried to resolder them by putting the pcb with the chip in the oven at 200°, now it works again :D

 

Works for graphics cards as well. :)

Edited December 31, 2011 by EtherealN

[samirpiccolotto]

I agree with many things you all said, above, except that Linux, for desktops/home users arent a big slice of the market... ...since the early 90's, Linux is growing super fast... ...in fact, if you dont use AutoCAD/Dreamweaver and dont play games, you dont need windows at all... ...lots of people have, at least, an Ubuntu disc (or any other common Linux Distro) layin around (or, installed).

 

Of course, i know microsoft windows is the most used OS (everytime i say windows is an OS i wanna cry... ...particular reasons and religion...) for desktops, but... ...i wouldnt tell a good game wont sell ok on a linux client. That sounds like a Microsoft advertisement... ...it's the same thing i used to hear, some 15 years ago... ...a front flip on a bmx = ****in impossible... ...today, i dont need to travel 30 miles to see someone performing it, here...

 

 

Another thing that i am tryin to say...

...MacOS = openGL... ...linux = openGL

The hard work = to port the game's graphical engine...

If you port it to MacOS... ...80% of the job is done, for Linux OS

 

Basically, all that is left = to do an installer/uninstaller (binary) and the game's binary (the old .exe on Windows)...

 

...Copy Protection on linux = easy mode... ...just use openSSL / gnuTLS and generate a personal key; attach it to the server's account, with the game's serial number... ...Check if the keys (the serial and the generated one ) are exactly the same (strict check); if the user didnt uninstall the app, consume one activation; if he did uninstall it; dont consume it... ...and generate another local key...

 

Game's sound = .ogg => runs easy on linux... ...physics wont need much "porting" work.

 

If the job is done for MacOS, it will be cake to port to Linux...

 

Another thing... ...I am not sure about DCS, but most games companies... ...devel the game on Linux/Unix, porting/cross-compiling it to windows... ...and trash the Linux after it...

 

So, i am pretty sure devels/coders know a lot of linux...

 

And, i am just giving a suggestion... ...i know it would be almost impossible for someone to port a kick ass game to Linux; but, at least, i ask for it...

[samirpiccolotto]

Client side, agreed. Server side, YGBSM! :)

 

Funny sidenote, the keyboarder in my band uses a macbook which recently died because some of the GPU solding points broke. As a last resort, he tried to resolder them by putting the pcb with the chip in the oven at 200°, now it works again :D

 

Blame the lack of lead on electronics solder :-( With less lead, electronics can't handle heat that well, nowadays... ...and right below the keyboard, near the touchpad = a super hot area, on note/netbooks! :-(

 

Just dont toss a chocolate topping on your notebook, or i'd eat that! ;-)

[AlphaOneSix]

But that's just because you're one of them weird Apple guys, innit? :D

 

My Linux experience started with Slackware 3.0 in 1995.

 

I didn't start using Apple products until MacOS X "Panther" came out in 2003.

[samirpiccolotto]

My Linux experience started with Slackware 3.0 in 1995.

 

I didn't start using Apple products until MacOS X "Panther" came out in 2003.

 

Slackware is like losing the virginity to 3 ultra-sexy pornstar girls together, in your first time! Just true happiness!

 

MacOS, old PowerPC era! Used to love that too! One of the most stable processors i've seem! Ultra stable and with a kick ass performance!

 

PS: trimming the Ka-50 is way more difficult than Slackware!!! ;-) Slackware = watch ekran ( /var/log/"things here" )

Edited December 31, 2011 by samirpiccolotto

[EtherealN]

I agree with many things you all said, above, except that Linux, for desktops/home users arent a big slice of the market...

 

For desktops, it's just north of 1%. That is small. ;)

There is a spread depending on the reporting agency between 1% and 4%. Wikimedia foundation reports usage shares accessing their systems like this:

http://stats.wikimedia.org/archive/squid_reports/2011-10/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm

 

Note though that there's a lot of self-selection going on there - nerds (like me) are more likely than the average user to both use Linux and use Wikimedia foundation assets. Those 3.5% they have also includes Android - with android removed, Linux plummets to 1.5%.

 

...since the early 90's, Linux is growing super fast... ...in fact, if you dont use AutoCAD/Dreamweaver and dont play games, you dont need windows at all... ...lots of people have, at least, an Ubuntu disc (or any other common Linux Distro) layin around (or, installed).

 

People have been saying this for a long time - pretty much since the 90's ended.

Linux is growing, yes, but it is growing from a very small level.

 

Of course, i know microsoft windows is the most used OS (everytime i say windows is an OS i wanna cry... ...particular reasons and religion...)

 

Old and tired non-argument that is about as sane as the classic Windows vs Mac religious war. Except Linux nerds are even worse: Emacs or Vi? (I roll with Vi.) And let's not start on the jihad between Gnome and KDE (I roll with Gnome).

 

...i wouldnt tell a good game wont sell ok on a linux client. That sounds like a Microsoft advertisement... ...it's the same thing i used to hear, some 15 years ago...

 

It's roughly as true now as it was then, which is why you hear it.

There is a market for games on Linux, yes. It is, however, very very small. Therefore you pretty much need your game to be pre-planned to use Linux-friendly technology in the game, or porting it will only be a money sink. X-Plane and Id Software games can make that transition relatively easily because they were planned for such portability from the start, using OpenGL and other features specifically towards this purpose. DCS is not.

 

To put it simple, even if DCS were to get a massive penetration of the Linux desktop segment, it wouldn't generate nearly enough sales to cover the cost.

 

Things might happen at some point regarding the ability to run with Wine or a Cedega-style-wrapper, but right now this is not possible for technical reasons.

 

Another thing that i am tryin to say...

...MacOS = openGL... ...linux = openGL

The hard work = to port the game's graphical engine...

If you port it to MacOS... ...80% of the job is done, for Linux OS

 

And the MacOS penetration in the desktop market is also very very small. (some 8 percent). If porting it to Mac is not deemed financially viable, your last 20% towards linux with it's 1% market share would still make it more expensive per target customer served than the 80% for Mac did.

 

Also, you forget that DX is more than just graphics. Replacements are also needed for the sound engine (DirectSound), all peripheral support (DirectInput), etcetera etcetera.

 

The reason why Windows is so successful isn't just that it's a big product - it is also in part that there is a centralized resource that lets you handle a lot of things that you need. Porting to OpenGL is nice for showing pretty pictures, but what good are those when you can neither hear nor control anything? ;)

 

Game's sound = .ogg => runs easy on linux... ...physics wont need much "porting" work.

 

Do you really think a sound engine is just an embedded XMMS? ;)

The format of the sound files is 100% irrelevant - they can be converted to whatever you need. The big deal is everything else that's happening.

 

Another thing... ...I am not sure about DCS, but most games companies... ...devel the game on Linux/Unix, porting/cross-compiling it to windows... ...and trash the Linux after it...

 

Sounds like you've drunk some cool-aid there. None of the software developers I've been at has done this. (Id Software probably does, but I never had the pleasure to meet them on their premises to check, only on various industry events.)

 

Anyways, yes, I'm with you in that I'd love to be able to game on Linux. I like being able to really control my machine's innards properly. (This is also why I use Google/Linux a.k.a Android on my phones and tablets.) But my production and gaming machines are Windows. Ever since I dropped the religious attitude and actually looked at the operating system, I could quickly put to shame all the silly buzzwords that elements of the Linux community (and, for that matter, the Mac community) use in attacks on Windows. Most of the time it only reveals a lack of familiarity with the OS, which is sort of ironic. :P

(I still get Linux preachers complaining that you have to reboot windows when you replace drivers... which is wrong, and has been since Vista... as an example. Same with instability: this machine, purchased in early February (I think it was), has been rebooted pretty much only due to power outages, excepting a few cases where I made some false moves in configuration. Aside from that, it's on 24/7. This used to be almost impossible with an XP desktop or earlier (though XP SP2 was acceptably stable), but those days are gone.)

 

That's the thing - Linux has improved immensely as a desktop product. But so has Windows. ;)

[Boberro]

I agree with many things you all said, above, except that Linux, for desktops/home users arent a big slice of the market... ...since the early 90's, Linux is growing super fast... ...

 

Ya ya ya, super fast and still Linux has about 1-4% of users. Windows at least 85%, really fast progress :)

[wtfisgoingon]

lol ya gonna be a lllllllllloooooooooooooooooooooooooooonnnnng time before Linux hits double digits nevermind has a hope in hell of even competing with windows. :D

[Supersheep]

You want a TrackIR in your Warthog, I wish you be best of luck selling Naturalpoint that they should port their stuff.

 

+1 for OP, however!

Super-

[Rhinox]

AFAIK the devs really want it to at least run in virtualised environments, but for technical reasons were not able to make it, yet.

Simply put, you are wrong. LO/DCS *can* (an in the case of original LO 1.0.x even *did*) run in virtualised environment, but ED intentionally took measures to prevent it. They were quite successful in their effort, yet that protection coud be circumvented...

[ALDEGA]

... since the early 90's, Linux is growing super fast ...

For better or worse, it isn't growing fast at all.

 

... everytime i say windows is an OS i wanna cry ...

OK ...

 

The hard work = to port the game's graphical engine...

The rest of the code is peanuts, right ...

 

Game's sound = .ogg => runs easy on linux...

The audio engine surely does more than simply play audio files ...

 

... most games companies... ...devel the game on Linux/Unix, porting/cross-compiling it to windows... ...and trash the Linux after it...

 

So, i am pretty sure devels/coders know a lot of linux...

To be substantiated ... (both items)

 

We should consider ourselves happy if ED, with its relatively limited resources, can continue to deliver new content and fix bugs along the way.

[EtherealN]

No Rhinox, simply put, YOU are wrong. No deliberate measures were taken to prevent it.

 

There are other things that don't work well with virtualized envorionments, and that is the technical reason. Unfortunate, but the community explicitly wanted a protection system that does not rely on priviliges and drivers. And yes, I know you'll say there should be no DRM at all, and to that I'll just say that you may think it is ineffective, and I'll say that it actually does exactly what it is needed to do. I can't really go into more detail than that since I am not talking for ED and speak purely on the general job of the DRM solution from a market perspective, not DCS specifically), and most of the understanding of the role of DRM in the general populace is based on gross oversimplifications of the situation.

 

For now, enjoy the fact that the system has less rights on yur computer than MSN has. Literally. If you want this changed, look back to the "good old days" of Ring-0 escalation exploits and carefully consider if it wasn't worth it. ;)

 

That's that on that.

[ALDEGA]

Simply put, you are wrong. LO/DCS *can* (an in the case of original LO 1.0.x even *did*) run in virtualised environment, but ED intentionally took measures to prevent it. They were quite successful in their effort, yet that protection coud be circumvented...

It's obvious why ED (or any other business that needs to pay its employees and bills) wouldn't want to allow this. However, regardless of the licensing matter, what virtualization platform allows full graphics/audio acceleration and similar performance to a native Windows environment?

[Moa]

Client side, agreed. Server side, YGBSM! :)

 

Funny sidenote, the keyboarder in my band uses a macbook which recently died because some of the GPU solding points broke. As a last resort, he tried to resolder them by putting the pcb with the chip in the oven at 200°, now it works again :D

 

Ah, cracked soldering. Same problem affects game consoles too. I bought a heat gun to repair the PS3 I gave my nephews and have now ended up repairing a few for friends too. Heat is the enemy!

 

Got a link to your band? I'm sure a lot of us would enjoy your live music.

 

Back on topic:

 

LockOn on WINE

I contributed to the test information for LockOn 1.12 in WINE and used to periodically update the information and post fixes/workarounds to run it on Linux when I found them. Unfortunately ever since the (undesirable but understandable IMHO) decision was made to use StarForce it wouldn't word under WINE anymore.

 

Portability matters

I don't believe a Linux-specific server should be made. This is incorrect thinking. What should be made is a *portable* server. It should work on Windows and MacOSX and Linux. Why? Because if you are going to put effort into making server software then you should make it portable. That way you can deploy to 100% of customer server systems (which is around half Linux on servers, around half Windows, and a smattering of other systems).

 

IMHO this would be best done with Java rather than C++ since the former has great support for multithreading (multi-core performance!), networking, and cross-platform GUI out of the box, which means the development time (that is, cost) is considerably smaller than for C++ (if you know what you are doing; Windows C++ programmers writing Java in a Windows C++ style produce awful and broken code in my experience until they properly re-train to lose all the Windows legacy cruft [that even C# programmers still do]).

 

I think the effort and expense to change a Windows client is too much if the Windows-specific code has not been isolated. You are stuck on Windows. Incidentally the creation of Windows specific APIs including the DirectX stack was done deliberately and intentionally by Microsoft to keep you locked into their platform. There is a great saying, "In order for Microsoft to win the customer must lose". Unfortunately many, many developers did and still do choose to limit themselves to Windows and now they are stuck. Some developers saw this early and tried to tell the Windows-only guys early, but "you can only lead a horse to water but can't make it drink" (the Windows-only devs refused to listen then, which is why they are fubar now that platforms are changing). Read on to hear case studies of developments that did keep portability as a design goal ...

 

Portability case studies

My favourite counter-example (to developing Windows-only software) is the creator of X-Plane and how he chose to use portable code and tech (OpenGL) and personally reaped a $3.5 US million dollar reward with the advent of the iPhone as he could quickly and easily move X-Plane to new platforms as they came out. It is hard as a developer to argue for portability vs the accountants (who only see Windows on the desktop, and ignore the server, and have only just woken up to the billions of other devices out there like powerful phones etc). Here's a link to the interview with Austin Meyer:

http://techhaze.com/2010/03/interview-with-x-plane-creator-austin-meyer/

 

Another example was that IL-2 Sturmovik was written in Java with a smattering of C++ in the performace critical bits (was written before the JVM was faster than C++, as it is now; and RAM was much more constrained than now, 16 GB anyone?). They also isolated the graphics so either OpenGL or DirectX could be used (intererstingly, I personally used to get better performance from the OpenGL path). This meant the code could be adapted to work on consoles and formed the basic for Wings of Prey - bringing in extra revenue. Portability is good for your strategic financial situation, although it can be slightly more expensive up-front to develop (although not really, if you do careful design and use automated testing to catch differences between platforms).

 

Here's another non-game example. For years Apple quietly beavered in the background to make MacOS X work on Intel chips as well as the PowerPC. People speculated but no one knew. When the time was right and IBM couldn't deliver enough PowerPC chips for Apple's liking then Apple announced that their Intel based Macs would be available. Making their *operating system* portable has paid off handsomely for Apple, and also meant IBM couldn't dictate terms to them [this is an abridged version of what went on, and is meant to be illustrative only].

 

A process to get portability

The economics are against making the DCS client portable to Linux. The economics are for porting it to MacOSX (after all, there is a MacOSX port of Falcon 4:Allied Force) and there are a large and increasing number of Macs out there. The two 'tricks' are:

 

1) it is an expensive and extensive effort to make old code portable. This can't be done quickly, so has to be done gradually. Ensure all *new* code is written to portable, or has platform dependencies isolated in a platform abstraction layer. Then assign one guy to slowly bring old code up to the new portable standard.

 

2) Choose portable technologies from now on. From this point-of-view: Lua good; Microsoft C++ bad; Standard C++ (eg. g++) good; OpenGL & GLSL good; DirectX & HLSL bad; Java good; C# bad. That way when the market shifts to the post-PC era (eg to larger markets with even more powerful phones and tablets) then ED's assets (it's software built up over more than a decade, and all the models and files that go with it) can be adapted quickly to the new opportunity and sold to those new customers.

 

It makes strategic financial sense to be portable.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Moa

[Rhinox]

No Rhinox, simply put, YOU are wrong. No deliberate measures were taken to prevent it.

Do not bullsh*t me EtherealN please. I think I know more about this particular subject, than you. BTW, check my previous thread concerning this:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=56356

 

I could tell you more about it were I not affraid you'd remove my message (or lock the topic, as in the above mentioned case) as soon as I put some details. So the last 2 points:

1. LockOn 1.0.x runs in virtual environment

2. LOFC/DCS does not run in vmware/vbox-guest, because StarForce detects game is running in virtual environment, and prevents starting it. As soon as you circumvent StarFroce, you can run DCS/LOFC in vmware/vbox-guest without any problem.

 

You say no deliberate measures have been made? Hm, why does then SF check for strings like "virtual" "vbox", "vmware", etc in hw-id? It's hard to debug that SF-beast, but not impossible! ;-)

 

...what virtualization platform allows full graphics/audio acceleration and similar performance to a native Windows environment?

AFAIK, none. But even if you loose 50% of your native hardware performance using virtual-guest, it might still be enough for running game-server. That is all I needed...

Edited December 31, 2011 by Rhinox

[EtherealN]

Rhinox, read your post again, then mine. The answer is right there, and your allegations are incorrect exactly as I stated. I am not interested in a further blow-by-blow with you. The topic is ended and if you have questions beyond that you can reconsider what was actually written. If you know as much as you allude to about the thing then you already know what I am saying, yet you are conveniently avoiding the issues with your preferred option.

 

As I said, that's that on the topic of DRM. Anything more on that is OT and will be handled as such.

[ALDEGA]

The economics are against making the DCS client portable to Linux.standard.

This is the only thing that matters. (not going to discuss your other claims ...)

 

[ That way when the market shifts to the post-PC era (eg to larger markets with even more powerful phones and tablets) then ED's assets (it's software built up over more than a decade) can be adapted quickly and sold to those new customers.

People have been talking about the "post-PC" era for a long time. I don't see this happening (soon). Instead, we're seeing additional device classes emerging (smart phone, tablet, ...) which have their own strengths and weaknesses and their own vendor lock-in, if you will. I can't imagine running a flight simulator like DCS on anything other than a powerful desktop system with specialized peripherals (TrackIR, HOTAS, ...)