User Pay-ware

[hassata]

You guys see this?

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=85144

[cichlidfan]

You guys see this?

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=85144

 

Yep.

[hassata]

Great news-looking forward to some quality add-ons!

[PeterP]

You guys see this?

yes.:)

 

I don't think that I would ever make a entry , but I have still some questions how this will work out.

 

Q:

When I up-load a mission/campaign that is a "Paid For" contend - how this will be protected that no one else can load it up to someone without paying for it ?

 

EDIT:

And I'm aware that only Wags/JimMack are able to answer this fully/satisfying.

-just wondering...

Edited February 7, 2012 by PeterP

[cichlidfan]

yes.:)

 

I don't think that I would ever make a entry , but I have still some questions how this will work out.

 

Q:

When I up-load a mission/campaign that is a "Paid For" contend - how this will be protected that no one else can load it up without paying for it ?

 

 

From what I have read about the Maple Flag stuff, I believe that part is your problem not ED's.

Edited February 7, 2012 by cichlidfan

[Heli Shed]

I'd pay a fortune for a copy that is stable, makes maximum use of cores and doesn't crash in either worldgeneral.dll, effects.dll, transport.dll or async.dll, (which incidentally, were the same problems from beta 1), a riddence of the Master Server list system and reliable and stable mp packets. Infact, i'd bet most of us would pay a fortune for it. keep waiting though.

 

Good luck third party's, just don't get invoved in the back office!

Edited February 7, 2012 by Tyger

[PeterP]

I'd pay a fortune for a copy that is stable, makes maximum use of cores and doesn't crash in either worldgeneral.dll, effects.dll, transport.dll or async.dll, which incidentally, (were the same problems from beta 1), a riddence of the Master Server list system and reliable and stable mp packets. Infact, i'd bet most of us would pay a fortune for it. keep waiting though.

 

Good luck third party's, just don't get invoved in the back office!

 

HA HA.

Nice - just on-topic!

 

Great news-looking forward to some quality add-ons!

second that!

Edited February 7, 2012 by PeterP

[Fleshpiston]

One they have under construction looks good - AAT01 - Air to Air Refueling Day

[Frostiken]

Hmmm... not sure how I feel about this... we've seen from the HOTAS Warthog that sim aficionados are willing to fork out ridiculous amounts of money for their hobby, and from the iPad app that people are willing to charge moronically disproportionate prices for something that didn't take nearly as much effort to create as the price would imply...

 

*BASIC* flight qualification for the A-10 is already $5. Been offered for months for free, What would a real campaign cost? $15? Are people going to start demanding cash for the 'privilege' of letting you get help? I guess it's good I have all these checklists now, because in a month they're going to cost $20 a .pdf?

 

The real charm of this community is that it's small and we're all willing to help each other out. This is just... bad news for everyone, methinks.

 

:/

Edited February 7, 2012 by Frostiken

[PeterP]

I think that this will ensure that missions will be compatible and/or updated .

quoting myself:

I think it is made in the first place for all that busy bees that creates campaigns and Training missions...

This has not to mean there is a SDK made available...

In the first place this will only ensure that some people will create a steady stream of high quality contend.

 

and i have no problem to pay 0.50 -2$ for it. (when it keeps me entertained longer than one hour)

Edited February 7, 2012 by PeterP

[Frostiken]

In the first place this will only ensure that some people will create a steady stream of high quality contend.

Says who? You? $5 is what we pay whole teams of professional developers for a slew of addon content to a game that usually has a lot more going for it than some units and triggers smeared across the same map we all have. Unique weapons, artwork, missions, full voice acting, etc. Companies had to work long and hard to find the 'sweet spot' of DLC, we've come a long way from horse armor. Even iOS apps cost as much as these missions, and compare what it takes to make an iOS app to what it takes to use the mission editor / manually configure some .luas... and usually you get more out of it too.

 

and i have no problem to pay 0.50 -2$ for it. (when it keeps me entertained longer than one hour)

Yeah, and some people have no problem spending $18 to go to a movie theater and buying two tickets, spending $12 on popcorn and drinks, and then watching 15 solid minutes of advertising, when in reality that's incredibly moronic. Some people are broke-ass poor and still can't resist spending all their money on a car that costs way more than they can afford. Some people see 'buy four for $10' deals at the grocery store, and even though they only need two they buy four, think they're saving money, and then end up spoiling / wasting the stuff they didn't need anyway. Basically, one person's idea of what they think is good value is meaningless. The only thing we can compare the payware missions and content to is relative to the cost of the full software package we've already bought, in which case $5 for a few training missions (which I just scooped up for free and recommend everyone else do as well, and quick) is a joke.

 

That's all besides the point. Effectively, monetizing the community's contributions to each other guarantees that to at least some degree this community is going to be split apart and disincentivized to help each other. One guy made an iPad app (iWarthog) for free. And another guy made a huge program to export and display all kinds of instruments whereever you want (Helios), for free. Then some clown comes along, steals both ideas, combined them into his own iPad app, and charged $30 for it. Who does that help? Is his product worth 30x as much as Helios? Are you saying the other two programs were *not* high quality, because they didn't cost money?

 

How ironic that I'm an American say this on a forum for a developer that's chiefly Russian.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Frostiken

[PeterP]

hum... Yes I did.. -but...

...I don't wanted to hurt your feelings...

Sorry!

 

Says who? You?

 

...

 

That's all besides the point. Effectively, monetizing the community's contributions to each other guarantees that to at least some degree this community is going to be split apart and disincentivized to help each other.

 

How ironic that I'm an American say this on a forum for a developer that's chiefly Russian.

ironic... isn't it?!

...and I'm German...

Edited February 7, 2012 by PeterP

[Phantom88]

I don't have a problem with paying a reasonable amount of coin to someone who spent a lot of time on a project that I'll learn something from or get some enjoyment out of.

 

I think this is a great step forward as now the door is open for the 3rd party developers.Who knows what could be next?

**New Maps**

**New Static Objects**

**New Aircraft**

**?**

[Frostiken]

I don't have a problem with paying a reasonable amount of coin to someone who spent a lot of time on a project that I'll learn something from or get some enjoyment out of.

 

I think you would. Where would any of us be without these forums, without YouTube videos, or without the endless barrage of free information and resources available to us already?

 

Hell, where would the people with the nerve to charge money be? Talk about paying it forward :cry:

 

**New Static Objects**

Ah yes. Brown hangar with wood roof: $0.50. Brown hangar with white roof: $0.50. Hangar collection pack: $0.99. Mission "Hostile Incursion": $3.99 [REQUIRES HANGAR COLLECTION PACK].

 

All made by the same guy, of course.

 

I find it comical that we as gamers will burn companies and spit on their names for doing this kind of nickle-and-diming but suddenly, because it's USERS, it's cool to do it, and people will stand up and defend the obvious double-standard. Fact is, user-content, especially for this game, will never be as good as official content due to limited access, time, and skills that the users have access to. It's one thing for a team of professionals to sell DLC, because usually DLC is doing things beyond what users with an SDK can do... it's entirely another for amateurs to overvalue their own abilities to do it.

 

You mentioned maps? Nevada was going to be a free map, once upon a time - user generated. It looked fine for a user map, but ED picked it up and wanted to make it a full-blown pay-for map and the quality of the work went through the roof a hundred-fold. You're going to tell me that if you put $12 Nevada made by ED besides $12 Nevada made by Joe Jackass, you'd consider the latter 'reasonable coin'?

Edited February 7, 2012 by Frostiken

[cichlidfan]

After standing back and looking around I am rather mystified by some of the comments.

 

The only thing that has changed is that there is now a new filter on the User Download page.

 

The payware was already there and Sabre-TLA had made this post

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=84281

 

about his payware missions almost a month ago.

 

Old news...:music_whistling:

Edited February 8, 2012 by cichlidfan

[PeterP]

Dear Frostiken,

Just 4 hours ago you didn't know that there is something like a "Paid for" contend existing .

And you are already acting like someone has taken something from you -

just please requestioning yourself if this will lead to something.

[Frostiken]

And you are already acting like someone has taken something from you -

------------------

ATTENTION! YOU ONLY HAVE A DCS FORUMS BRONZE ACCOUNT! THIS FORUM POST IS NOT VISIBLE WITHOUT A SILVER OR GOLD ACCOUNT!

 

CLICK HERE TO UPGRADE YOUR FORUM ACCOUNT FOR ONLY $14.99 A MONTH!

------------------

 

 

But no really, it's because nothing good will ever come of encouraging people to do this. Nothing good ever has. It won't raise the quality of work, it won't guarantee that the missions are worth buying (the flight qualifications missions are buggy and unclear, at best)...

Edited February 8, 2012 by Frostiken

[PeterP]

Gosh!...are you serious?! (or do you rally care that someone still takes you serious?...)

(the first time I gave negative rep to someone...)

Edited February 8, 2012 by PeterP

[Frostiken]

Gosh!...are you serious?

(the first time I gave negative rep to someone...)

 

Are you serious? Is this serious time now?

 

I'm stating my opinion. This place isn't a fascism where only socially acceptable opinions can be voiced. A forum reputation system is there so you can base it on things like, say, personal conduct or maybe being a helpful person (perhaps for free). Not so you can say 'You like potatos? WELL I DON'T, NEGATIVE REP'.

 

So, because you felt the need to not only negative rep me for no reason, but you didn't even have the decency to explain how I offended you so much (your negative rep comment is: "First negative rep I've ever given!"), have a big bag of it in return. Should I go voice politically correct opinions elsewhere to farm some more?

 

I sought to discuss to implications of what ED encouraging people to turn their currently-free offerings into payware would be, and I've voiced my admittedly pessimistic view on it. I think it's one thing to charge for DLC made by a professional team, but another thing entirely to now provide the stamp of approval on monetizing every bit of user-generated content that's been on this forum so far. I don't think it's a great idea.

 

So there.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Frostiken

[Heli Shed]

"You must spread some reputation around again beofre giving it to Frostiken"

[Nate--IRL--]

Frost this is not a new thing, the VERGEEV Group campaign was a High Quality 3rd party pay-ware Campaign since the BS1 days.

 

Why would people bother investing large chunks of their time in to a substantial project for no return? I take it you don't work for free? The market will dictate whether a 3rd party product is worth the payment.

 

Nate

[636_Castle]

Frostiken I would cancel out Peter's negative rep with some positive from me, but I have to spread it around before giving it to you again. :D

 

I wouldn't worry too much about being charged an arm and a leg for too many things though. ED is only offering the opportunity, they aren't setting prices, or welcoming/encouraging people to stamp price tags on their stuff, right?

 

If something isn't worth paying for, like a campaign for example, simply do not buy it. :) I agree, the community is small, and we all benefit from people helping out.

 

If you think about it though, people could have been charging for their content all along. This is only a change to the DCS website AFAIK.

[Snoopy]

"You must spread some reputation around again beofre giving it to Frostiken"

 

Same here...although not as passionate I can see the potential for this to go the wrong way. IMO if 3rd party add ons like new ACFT or theaters maybe, skins not so much..

[cichlidfan]

I really don't care whether someone wants to charge for their effort.

 

If I were ED, however, I might want a really big disclaimer on every paid download page saying something to the effect that these are not ED content and ED is in no way responsible aside from hosting the download.

 

But that is just me.;)

[Grimes]

Frostiken appears to be concerned about the extremes that could potentially occur with DLC. Not that I blame him, some business models can have questionable practices when it comes to monetizing certain aspects of games. The real question is what sort of content will end up being offered and what impact it will have on compatibility and/or multiplayer. Currently its only singleplayer missions and it appears the content is locked until you unlock it with a key. I doubt if multiplayer missions could be protected using this method and the current way MP is setup. If we were to get a model pack, it is a legitimate concern if missions utilizing the new 3d models would require the model pack in order to play it. Personally I'd prefer either having a model to be swapped with an existing one or have a lower LOD visible with the same functionality for those who don't have the pack.

 

 

 

Why would people bother investing large chunks of their time in to a substantial project for no return? I take it you don't work for free?

 

I have two points regarding this:

1. Payware vs freeware doesn't necessarily define which is of a higher quality. We all have access to the same mission editor so there is no inherent advantage to payware over freeware, thus the quality of the work defines the quality of the mission.

 

2. Why don't we have a system and culture in place to reward those who spend time working on missions or other content for free? "I like missions made by X, therefore I am going to give X some money in appreciation." That would be one hell of a way to to encourage people to continue working for free.