Amraam question.

[FanBoy2006.01]

Hey. I got a question to all.

 

When you are in the NEZ of a modern missile like Amraam, is it possible to outmaneuver it (In real life and in game.)?

 

Let me explain my question. I want to know if when you fly a contemporary aircraft like Mig29, Su27, F15, etc, will you be able to change acceleration, position and altitude so dramatically that you can dodge an amraam in the NEZ.

 

I don't play alot. The single time I played online I was able to dodge missles comming head on by jinking violently and dropping chaff.

 

Off-line is another story (I have missle slider set to full.). I have not been able to dodge an amraam by trying to outmaneuver it.

 

This is great. I like the fact that the Eagle is so damn deadly. But I would like to know if there is a way to survive in the NEZ.

 

Off the point here. When I got FC2 and flew against AI F15 the first time I noticed that I only get launch warning once the amraam goes active.

 

That is so freaking awsome! Thank you Eagle Dynamics for incorperating this!:thumbup:

[Kenan]

There's a reason it's called No Escape Zone :D.. You can of course, dodge the missile even under such conditions but it's a very difficult task..it's not about "tactic" rather pure luck.. ;)

[golfsierra2]

Off the point here. When I got FC2 and flew against AI F15 the first time I noticed that I only get launch warning once the amraam goes active.

 

That's the (simulated) difference between TWS and STT. You won't get a missile warning, if the F-15C is launching a MSL in TWS.

Dunno, if this is realistic or not, but in-game, it shows this way.

[golfsierra2]

There's a reason it's called No Escape Zone :D.. You can of course, dodge the missile even under such conditions but it's a very difficult task..it's not about "tactic" rather pure luck.. ;)

 

A barrel roll manouver and a sharp over-G pull up just before impact of the MSL might do the job. It's a matter of training and intuition.

[RIPTIDE]

<< Straps himself into armchair with rank of general >>

 

Barrel rolls used to work before. Not really in FC2. Both 77's and 120's are generally deadly within their respective NEZ, though you can notch the missile itself and chaff can have an effect on them. However, you'll have a hard time notching a salvo and chaff does not always work.

[Cali]

FC2 is still messed up in this area, but then again we don't know how it really works in real life. I remember firing a 120 at a guy 9nm in front of me and 10k above me, he was able to dodge that missile, don't know how, but he did. I have seen 120's/77's miss from even closer then that. However every case is different, altitude plays a huge role in it.

[RIPTIDE]

Track will tell you how he dodged it.. there's never any mystery with these things notwithstanding track corruption.

[FanBoy2006.01]

That's the (simulated) difference between TWS and STT. You won't get a missile warning, if the F-15C is launching a MSL in TWS.

Dunno, if this is realistic or not, but in-game, it shows this way.

 

Yes. But you can still see enemy radar signal strength. So you can guess when the other guy is able to launch.

[Kenan]

A barrel roll manouver and a sharp over-G pull up just before impact of the MSL might do the job. It's a matter of training and intuition.

 

And again: luck. ;)

[GGTharos]

Depending on the altitude you were at, he could have been outside of Rtr (there's a reason why they no longer call it a NEZ).

 

The possibilities, or a combinations thereof is as follows:

 

1) Ran the missile out of energy (obviously outside Rtr in this case)

2) Notched (missile somehow ended up above target)

3) Decoyed (the C is fairly resistant to chaff, but there's a very small chance that it'll eat it. Combined with 2 above, it can work very well)

4) Last second pull in perfect parameters (can also be very lucky)

5) Latency

 

Other that #1, the rest will work whether it's inside or outside the Rtr.

 

Inside the Rtr, obviously it's like playing with fire. There's no 100% ability to ditch the missile. Even if you're really good, there's always a chance of making that small mistake, or the bandit timing multiple launches carefully that will end your fun. While you can dodge a missile inside Rtr, you should expect plenty of hardship.

 

(Note, I'm not addressing all of this to Cali, he knows most of this I'm sure).

 

FC2 is still messed up in this area, but then again we don't know how it really works in real life. I remember firing a 120 at a guy 9nm in front of me and 10k above me, he was able to dodge that missile, don't know how, but he did. I have seen 120's/77's miss from even closer then that. However every case is different, altitude plays a huge role in it.

[GGTharos]

Barrel rolls used to work before. Not really in FC2.

 

They still work, but in a very specific (and more realistic) context - ie. draining missile energy at specific, narrow set of ranges from the launch point.

 

Both 77's and 120's are generally deadly within their respective NEZ, though you can notch the missile itself and chaff can have an effect on them. However, you'll have a hard time notching a salvo and chaff does not always work.

 

And hopefully the fuzes will be made even more realistic, and barrel rolling a high-energy missile will be practically eliminated ... along with last-second putting a missile if it isn't an out-of-plane maneuver.

[GGTharos]

There is no missile slider in FC2 ... what were you playing? :)

 

Off-line is another story (I have missle slider set to full.). I have not been able to dodge an amraam by trying to outmaneuver it.

[FanBoy2006.01]

There is no missile slider in FC2 ... what were you playing? :)

 

I drew it for you so you can see.

 

It usually appears after you take two hits of LSD.:prop:

[Cali]

I drew it for you so you can see.

 

It usually appears after you take two hits of LSD.:prop:

 

Oh come on, you moved the missile slider a little to the left!

[FanBoy2006.01]

Oh come on, you moved the missile slider a little to the left!

 

I find that on LSD you have to move the slider completely to the left to play; because it gets to hectic with all the fire breathing dragons and smurfs chucking hatchets at you!:shocking:

[Frostie]

But I would like to know if there is a way to survive in the NEZ.

because it gets too hectic with all the fire breathing dragons and smurfs chucking hatchets at you!:shocking:

 

 

[golfsierra2]

They still work, but in a very specific (and more realistic) context - ie. draining missile energy at specific, narrow set of ranges from the launch point.

 

Yup, I know.

[RIPTIDE]

They still work, but in a very specific (and more realistic) context - ie. draining missile energy at specific, narrow set of ranges from the launch point.

I was referring to the last second barrel roll...

[GGTharos]

It still works if you don't have any latency. There are ways of getting rid of it, but they're not exactly super.

[RIPTIDE]

Track?

[Moa]

Doesn't the "No Escape Zone" refer to the possibility of outrunning the missile? that is, escaping 'kinematicaly'.

 

Therefore being in the NEZ does not mean you cannot defeat the missile - just you cannot outrun it.

 

On older missiles the best was to defeat it was to cause a great enough crossing angle that it's seeker could not slew fast enough to keep you tracked. This was for older missiles will relatively narrow fields of view and mechanically slewed seekers.

 

I'm not sure whether this still works with newer missiles using imaging focal planes (which I guess have a greater field-of-view, although getting any [classified!] material on this is tough).

 

The other way to defeat a missile is using it's speed against it. That is, even though it can pull many more Gs than the aircraft can because the missile is so fast its turning radius is correspondingly huge. A last-ditch pull-down (using gravity to assist the turn) results in a turning radius that the missile cannot match, thanks to r = v^2/a where turning radius goes as velocity squared. A higher G for the missile can't make up for the squared effect of its higher velocity.

 

The last defense against ground-based missiles is terrain masking. Proper planning and pilot training seems to make this effective.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Moa

[falcon_120]

Doesn't the "No Escape Zone" refer to the possibility of outrunning the missile? that is, escaping 'kinematicaly'.

 

Therefore being in the NEZ does not mean you cannot defeat the missile - just you cannot outrun it.

 

Yes, as I have always undertood it,the NEZ refers to the range at wich you won't be able to outrun the missile,it has nothing to do with the missile being unavoidable trough decoys and maneuvers,tough

once in the NEZ you'll have to be quite precise for not getting shot down.

[RIPTIDE]

Yes, as I have always undertood it,the NEZ refers to the range at wich you won't be able to outrun the missile,it has nothing to do with the missile being unavoidable trough decoys and maneuvers,tough

once in the NEZ you'll have to be quite precise for not getting shot down.

Yep. The same way I thought of it. As opposed to, for example, a shot at a target within the arbitrary RtR symbology in the HUD. ;).

[GGTharos]

That's why they call it the Rtr instead of the NEZ now. It means that if you execute a specific maneuver at the Rtr distance (ie. a turn away from the missile at 6.5g say, and then accelerate away) you will out-run the missile.

 

Doesn't the "No Escape Zone" refer to the possibility of outrunning the missile? that is, escaping 'kinematicaly'.

 

It works on modern missiles as well. The lead angle depends on the speed relationship of the two objects. Older seekers may not have been able to slew as much or as fast as modern ones, but the same general vulnerability remains.

 

On older missiles the best was to defeat it was to cause a great enough crossing angle that it's seeker could not slew fast enough to keep you tracked. This was for older missiles will relatively narrow fields of view and mechanically slewed seekers.

 

I'm not sure whether this still works with newer missiles using imaging focal planes (which I guess have a greater field-of-view, although getting any [classified!] material on this is tough).

 

Obviously not; that is, you have to go even further out, to the point where the missile is so slow that it has to fly formation with you. FPA's aren't the issue, the 90deg off-bore is.

 

The other way to defeat a missile is using it's speed against it. That is, even though it can pull many more Gs than the aircraft can because the missile is so fast its turning radius is correspondingly huge. A last-ditch pull-down (using gravity to assist the turn) results in a turning radius that the missile cannot match, thanks to r = v^2/a where turning radius goes as velocity squared. A higher G for the missile can't make up for the squared effect of its higher velocity.

 

It's an out-of-plane turn, and the out-of-plane part is pretty important. Depends on the missile, and it exploits multiple vulnerabilities. Turning radius isn't as big a deal (the most modern missiles can pull enough Gz to make you cry). On the other hand, seeker-to-steering respense timing, combined with counter-measures can and will usually increase miss distance.

Will it be enough to avoid triggering the prox fuze? Who knows.