Two Seater Challenge

[Peyoteros]

That is exactly why I believe that we don't need to have the AI copilot in MP...

 

The current AI and comms UI won't cut it for AI co-pilot as you will need to work effectively as a team with it. If your wingman messes around unintelligently it's not that big problem as you can still operate effectively yourself. But if you have a stupid AI who doesn't know what he's supposed to do and cannot communicate effectively what he is doing and seeing he will mess your performance also as he's operating critical systems you have no control over yourself. And the current communications menu isn't very fast to use and will require removing your eyes from action which are both bad for combat effectiveness. This would be especially bad for communicating with co-pilot as you will need to use it very often.

[Exorcet]

I know that AI will take a far second place to another good human pilot, but I'm not trying to replace the second human with the AI. I'm trying to replace blank spots in the player list.

 

I don't think it's safe to assume that there will always be another person ready to jump in to a two seater whenever you're ready. Playing FC2 online, people don't always communicate and they don't always balance the teams numbers wise. With two seaters, the same applies but you could also just be in a room where no one wants to only do half the job and they all stick to their single seaters.

 

If the AI is done for single player and already coded, I think it only makes sense to have available in multiplayer (depending on how much more code it will take to implement into MP). This is not for the purpose of having people flying around in two seat planes by themselves, but for the purpose of making sure that on the off chance that the AI would be helpful, it's there and they player can make the decision to use it or not.

[Peyoteros]

Well, people do fly alone in single seaters... FC2 isn't DCS :) That's the purpose of two seater, bringing people together.

[Furia]

Jane's F-15E, LB & LB2?

And do not forget Tornado, a very nice sim from the early 90's wher you can fly any seat.

:pilotfly:

[Peyoteros]

Well, with activity like that I don't think we've deserved two seater...

[Tailgate]

Don't forget about Fleet Defender and PAW 1942. Locking up 8 targets as RIO and pickling off the Phoenix and Aamrams in FD was a blast.

 

I spent half of my time in PAW in the Avenger's Tailgunner position. As far as MP, if we could get the Pacific theater modeled with historical Naval AC and Carriers, Tailgunner would be my ideal position. Hopefully this isn't too far off!

[SilentEagle]

Don't be so negative! Lots of people would like to see it happen, but it has been discussed a lot in the past. I believe it should be possible with DCS's superior netcode, but it will take some motivation on ED's part to make it happen, either with their own or a 3rd party made aircraft. The future looks great for DCS, so I believe this will happen, eventually.

[Daze]

Someone should try make a 2 seat P-51D mod, would be a lot of fun to take a buddy up with you in multiplayer

[Peyoteros]

So, is there anyone in DCS World of Adventures with rough idea on how to make a two seater?

[Azazel]

Come on people, it's two seater we're talking about! Where is your enthusiasm? :huh:

 

I'm all for it, and have been for years now. I've never understood the argument for worrying about an AI back-seater. Pretty sure the majority of dual seat fighter aircraft can be flown by a single pilot if need be. The whole point of having a two seat fighter aircraft is increased survivability.

[Eddie]

I'm all for it, and have been for years now. I've never understood the argument for worrying about an AI back-seater. Pretty sure the majority of dual seat fighter aircraft can be flown by a single pilot if need be.

 

While it varies depending on the aircraft in question, in many cases no they can't.

 

 

The whole point of having a two seat fighter aircraft is increased survivability.

 

Yes and no. In most cases it's simply because one man can't handle the workload. And while a task saturated pilot is more likely to crash/be shot down in combat, adding a second crewman isn't so much to increase survivability but rather to improve mission capability/effectiveness.

[Azazel]

While it varies depending on the aircraft in question, in many cases no they can't.

 

 

 

 

Yes and no. In most cases it's simply because one man can't handle the workload. And while a task saturated pilot is more likely to crash/be shot down in combat, adding a second crewman isn't so much to increase survivability but rather to improve mission capability/effectiveness.

 

One of our family friends used fly in the back of F-100Fs in Vietnam. He was a flight surgeon (not even flight qualified) and the only reason he went on missions was to be an extra set of eyes in the aircraft (to help spot SAMs, ground fire). I agree that the workload is challenging but obviously if ED did an F-16D, F-15D, F-18D or F, then all the tasks can be handled by the front-seater if need be. I agree to a certain extent. Its hard (if not impossible) to fly an A-6 on a preplanned bombing route on the deck without the guy in the right seat. My arguement is really not to worry about creating an AI guy in the back (why bother) most people who want to fly a two seater want to do so in the multiplayer environment.

[Jona33]

One of our family friends used fly in the back of F-100Fs in Vietnam. He was a flight surgeon (not even flight qualified) and the only reason he went on missions was to be an extra set of eyes in the aircraft (to help spot SAMs, ground fire). I agree that the workload is challenging but obviously if ED did an F-16D, F-15D, F-18D or F, then all the tasks can be handled by the front-seater if need be. I agree to a certain extent. Its hard (if not impossible) to fly an A-6 on a preplanned bombing route on the deck without the guy in the right seat. My arguement is really not to worry about creating an AI guy in the back (why bother) most people who want to fly a two seater want to do so in the multiplayer environment.

 

Yes but the F-16D/F-15D and the F-18D are Combat Capable Trainers. The F-18F is the only one of these that is a real combat plane. I do think that third party would do a good with a two seater but to me I think people will more readily except an MP only aircraft from a third party than from ED.

[Azazel]

Yes but the F-16D/F-15D and the F-18D are Combat Capable Trainers. The F-18F is the only one of these that is a real combat plane. I do think that third party would do a good with a two seater but to me I think people will more readily except an MP only aircraft from a third party than from ED.

 

I've been supported by Marine F-18Ds in Iraq and Afghanistan (I was in the Airborne Infantry 3-509th PIR for 6 years). I agree with you on the thrid party issue there, I'd rather see ED tackle the challenge with vigor.

[Eddie]

I agree that the workload is challenging but obviously if ED did an F-16D, F-15D, F-18D or F, then all the tasks can be handled by the front-seater if need be.

 

But those types you listed aren't dual seat combat aircraft, they are trainer variants of single seat aircraft. Many combat jets that are designed from the start to be twin seat very much need both crew to be combat effective. ;)

 

Of course that's not so say flying some twin seat aircraft in combat without a back seater would be impossible, but it would at the very least make the pilots job harder and in some cases also limit the roles that could be carried out.

 

Now from a sim perspective, as long as you could jump between the two seats it would work, but ideally at the very least you would want a decent AI back seater. Especially in aircraft where it's not possible to operate the RADAR or other system from the front seat.

 

My arguement is really not to worry about creating an AI guy in the back (why bother) most people who want to fly a two seater want to do so in the multiplayer environment.

 

I think you'd be surprised. Personally I can't see why anyone would fly any sim in SP, but still more play SP than MP. And it'd be a bit short sighted for ED (or a 3rd party) to risk alienating them by making a dual seat jet that is essentially MP only.

[Azazel]

Yeah, the SP vs MP aspect is a concern. Personally, I only fly with others (relying on AI is not much fun), unless I'm testing something.

[Azazel]

Also there are countries that fly the F-16 in a two seat variant for combat (F-16I Sufa: Isreal). Again, the F-18D could be done. One of my platoon leaders got to go on a F-15E ride with an Airforce pilot out of Elmendorf AFB, AK. He just sat with his hands in his lap the whole time and took pictures (that aircraft could be flown as a fighter with just one guy in the cockpit if need be but having a guy in the back is probably necessary to get bombs on target: not sure about that part though).

[Jona33]

I've been supported by Marine F-18Ds in Iraq and Afghanistan (I was in the Airborne Infantry 3-509th PIR for 6 years). I agree with you on the thrid party issue there, I'd rather see ED tackle the challenge with vigor.

 

Of course but primarily I believe they're trainers.

[Azazel]

Of course but primarily I believe they're trainers.

 

Probably, but then again we had them around for about 5 months in Iraq and almost 6 in A-stan. They were dropping plenty of iron and the advantage of having a them was great because the back seater could handle all the radio traffic from us (on the ground) and operate the TGP while the pilot just focused on flying. Same goes for the F-15Es we were supported by. By contrast, working with a single seat F-16 was much harder to get him to get his TGP on target. I remember one instance that by the time we got him on target (about 30min) he had to go hit the tanker. Is it a risk for ED to try and make this work: sure. Should they give it shot: yes. My two cents fellas.

[Peyoteros]

Mi - 24 would be also nice... I'm not sure, but I think I saw one in TFC warehouse...

[ogata321]

Maybe if we get a chopper let's say the Mi-24 we can go more ARMA style on engaging the enemy ?Let's say a co-pilot menu with which engaging a target looks something like this Co-pilot/engage/m1a2/9K114 ?

[tonyrubak]

I would absolutely love to see two-seater aircraft. They would need to be aircraft where the roles are split (not F-14 or any of the trainer aircraft). I think great airframes for this type of play would be the A-6, F-111, or AH-1J/W. In addition to being great two-seat aircraft, I would rather have an A-6 than F/A-18 and I'd prefer an F-111 over an F-15E. As others have said, I would buy these aircraft even if they were mutliplayer only.

[Alicatt]

Personaly I would like either or both of the F14 Bombcat and the Tornado. Played a lot of Fleet Defender and Tornado and still have both boxed in the cellar :)

I have got Tornado to run via Dosbox but it usually crashes halfway through the first mission ... and no I wasn't flying too low ;)

[Mouse]

I lurk a lot on these forums and rarely post, but I need to put in my support here. I'd commit to buying it, but I'll buy anything DCS at this point. Still... my dream would be to get some sort of two-seat aircraft in DCS. All of the aircraft I want to see the most are two-seaters. I'm fortunate enough to have a buddy to fly with who feels the same way. I understand the technical challenges for single-player, but we would love to share a single aircraft.

[Pikey]

Dual control....who gets to over-ride? Someone said they couldnt see a technical limitation with this...? So erm... no technical limitations? We controlling someones FFB joystick from a server perhaps? Dual control has to have a switching method otherwise multiplayer client/server then need sub servers as pilots. Doable, but not nice and there's some issues deeper down.

 

AI piloting....someone ribbed this as doable. I think you need glasses and watch AI fly. No its not even close. I'm certainly not sitting in a back seat with it, AI flies different flight models because they can't handle the real thing.

 

Back to the WSO/RIO model or the "extra pair of eyes" in the cockpit...ie really a very dumb role that isn't required. This IS doable but is it fun? is it required? There's the challenge. And that's more about the airframe and combat role, not the physical presence of more than one seat.

 

Combined arms will probably have elements of this type of teamwork anyway...eye in the sky/on the ground, GAI etc.

 

At lot of people aren't thinking this through from 360 degrees, they just think yeah me and my pal would buy a 2 seater and be able to play together.

 

For the sake of keeping this great idea going though I feel the first step would be to create a static cockpit view inside an AI aircraft and once this is doable get a third party mod going.

 

I'm still lost as to what aircraft is the best for this job though.