New Chinese fighter? SAC F60.

[marcos]

What people 'say' can be wrong.

[Pilotasso]

all copies :megalol:

even the Russians say the chinese jets are inferior and years behind theirs

 

The chinese declined the T-50 saying the same. :)

[almonds]

The chinese declined the T-50 saying the same. :)

 

Because they could rip it off for cheaper. The type 59 is an exact copy of the t-54 :lol:

 

which one has a better track record? :music_whistling:

[GripenNG]

Well we should not judge the Chinese to hard, just look at the similarities between the European fighters with the Delta / Canard form. Most modern fighters are quite similar on the aerodynamic shapes.

 

But the Chinese have taken this copying to far, with the Su-27 and Su-33 copies which Russia and China even started argument about. And now the obvious F-22 copy.

 

They are smart, because it can cut a lot of costs to copy other designs, and instead spend the money on quantity - which the US could not handle in this economic situation with only 187 operational Raptors. So the Chinese created a cheaper copy. Compare it to the situation during WWII, where german tanks where superior, but the american ones where a lot more. The situation have now changed where it is the Chinese who mass produce military materiel.

 

So when the Chinese lack the technology on the aerodynamic / avionics they make the best of the situation to play with the big dogs. But I agree - it´s just painful to see a cheap and ugly copy of the F-22.

[blackbelter]

Copying? Maybe. But in the battle field, what matters is if you can get the upper hand, not if you copied something or not. This is what we Chinese learnt from The Art of War. Because war is a matter of life or death, for which people should struggle for the best using anything they have. For this reason, I think it is wise to adopt some mature technologies that are known to work, and concentrate our energy in respects that we can more likely make breakthroughs in the near future. This IMHO is the most economic and fastest way of advancing our defense capabilities and accumulating knowledge and engineering techniques. But if you think we Chinese are doing nothing but "copying", which seems so extremely trivial, then good luck to you. If it is indeed so easy, and if your government is not stupid enough to put anything above national security, I think you should do that too. (Right, you've already done that. Some large F16 comes into my mind.) And if you value originality so much, please stop buying/waiting for foreign military aircrafts, and develop some for yourself.

 

If you think something is funny, laugh all you want (while you desperately look forward to the arrival of F35). Given the history, I don't think it surprises anybody that China is behind Nations such as America and Russia in terms of science and technology. But we at least are trying to catch up, and we can already see the hope of achieving that in the not-so-distant-future. I am not particularly fond of the Chinese government otherwise, but I think they have done a good job in this respect.

Edited September 17, 2012 by blackbelter

[marcos]

Large F-16?

[aaron886]

That looks like an F-16 to you?

[Pyroflash]

Large F-16?

 

Maybe if the F-16 was Chinese and had two engines..

 

As for people saying that it is a copy similar to China and Russia. Well, not necessarily. China actually did copy Russian aircraft piece for piece (J-7 and J-11), with controversy arising over the production of the J-7 and J-15 aircraft because neither have production licenses from Russia to be built (J-7 was modified MiG-21 and license was revoked, whereas the J-15 is an unlicensed production of the Su-33), and manufacturing them constitutes a breach of the licensing agreement.

 

Copies of U.S. aircraft however, aren't really going to be copies. More generalizations and guesses at best. This is because China doesn't have direct access to the designs and manufacturing techniques used to create the aircraft we have (and you are a fool if you think that you can gain all of that knowledge simply from hacking LHM).

[RIPTIDE]

Something tells me there is a lot of underestimating going on.

[Pyroflash]

Something tells me there is a lot of underestimating going on.

 

No, I just said that it is unlikely a copy, not that it wasn't a good airplane..

[blackbelter]

That looks like an F-16 to you?

 

No, macros doesn't mean that the 'SAC F60' looks like F16 to him. I believe what macros was talking about, which caused confusion in you, and subsequently in Pyroflash, was referring back to my previous post. And as senior members, I'm sure you know what I was talking about if you've read my post.

Edited September 18, 2012 by blackbelter

[RglsPhoto]

Its name is Huying(鹘鹰，a kind of falcon).

 

New pics

 

 

[Cali]

They can copy the outside, but what's inside is another story.

[blackbelter]

Its name is Huying(鹘鹰，a kind of falcon).

 

New pics

[ATTACH]70664[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]70665[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]70666[/ATTACH]

 

Nice pictures RglsPhoto. Looking forward to more.

[aaron886]

They can copy the outside, but what's inside is another story.

 

China has always struggled with:

 

- Cutting-edge metallurgy

- Aerodynamics and aircraft shaping

- Gas turbine engine development

- Computers of any sort

 

Nothing to say that has changed dramatically.

[Pyroflash]

No, macros doesn't mean that the 'SAC F60' looks like F16 to him. I believe what macros was talking about, which caused confusion in you, and subsequently in Pyroflash, was referring back to my previous post. And as senior members, I'm sure you know what I was talking about if you've read my post.

 

Right, thanks for clearing that up. However, you do know that the F-2 project was a result of of technology transfers between MHI and LHM? Not exactly a copy, or some stolen hardware. The J-15 however was a blatant copy of the Su-33 of which no transfers or licenses have been approved by the Russian government.

 

As for China copying U.S. hardware. They aren't. It simply isn't feasible given their research base when compared to America. This is mainly because while in general, China has a greater and more diverse worker base. And while China does have more skilled labor than the U.S., the U.S. still has something like 70% of the world's high skilled work force (e.g. scientists) within its borders, and this is unlikely to change. However due to this imbalance, it makes developing new technologies at a rate comparative to the U.S. extremely difficult, and more often than not their only option is to rely on proven tech in mass numbers.

 

Basically what Aaron said.

 

It is important to mention however, that Russia is basically in the same boat here. Though they outsource a lot of their tech now, which makes using more advanced computers and construction techniques a lot more feasible than it used to be (Fall of the Union timeframe). Plus Russia has TsAGi, which, let's face it, is really good at what they do.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Pyroflash

[marcos]

That looks like an F-16 to you?

I was responding to the previous post but the damn page change got in the way.

 

Copying? Maybe. But in the battle field, what matters is if you can get the upper hand, not if you copied something or not. This is what we Chinese learnt from The Art of War. Because war is a matter of life or death, for which people should struggle for the best using anything they have. For this reason, I think it is wise to adopt some mature technologies that are known to work, and concentrate our energy in respects that we can more likely make breakthroughs in the near future. This IMHO is the most economic and fastest way of advancing our defense capabilities and accumulating knowledge and engineering techniques. But if you think we Chinese are doing nothing but "copying", which seems so extremely trivial, then good luck to you. If it is indeed so easy, and if your government is not stupid enough to put anything above national security, I think you should do that too. (Right, you've already done that. Some large F16 comes into my mind.) And if you value originality so much, please stop buying/waiting for foreign military aircrafts, and develop some for yourself.

 

If you think something is funny, laugh all you want (while you desperately look forward to the arrival of F35). Given the history, I don't think it surprises anybody that China is behind Nations such as America and Russia in terms of science and technology. But we at least are trying to catch up, and we can already see the hope of achieving that in the not-so-distant-future. I am not particularly fond of the Chinese government otherwise, but I think they have done a good job in this respect.

[marcos]

No, macros doesn't mean that the 'SAC F60' looks like F16 to him. I believe what macros was talking about, which caused confusion in you, and subsequently in Pyroflash, was referring back to my previous post. And as senior members, I'm sure you know what I was talking about if you've read my post.

Still don't know what plane you're referring to. F-18? F-35?

 

 

- Computers of any sort

 

Take the cover off your computer and check stamp on the board, especially if you have a sound card.

Edited September 18, 2012 by marcos

[topol-m]

Take the cover off your computer and check stamp on the board, especially if you have a sound card.

 

One thing is having factories of foreign companies in your country where they manufacture chips and other computer components, another thing is doing them yourself. Whenever if ever that sac 60 or J-21 or TeenageRaptormutant goes into service, I can bet comparing its avionics to those of F-35 for instance would be the same as comparing a calculator to a computer. Just looking at big colorful lcd displays tells you nothing of what's under the hood and how it does its job, i can connect 2 big MFCDs to the dashboard of my car and paint F-22 on its side, does that make it a fifth gen jet fighter?

Edited September 18, 2012 by topol-m

[marcos]

One thing is having factories of foreign companies in your country where they manufacture chips and other computer components, another thing is doing them yourself.

Not given their propensity for copying.

 

Whenever if ever that sac 60 or J-21 or TeenageRaptormutant goes into service, I can bet comparing its avionics to those of F-35 for instance would be the same as comparing a calculator to a computer. Just looking at big colorful lcd displays tells you nothing of what's under the hood and how it does its job, i can connect 2 big MFCDs to the dashboard of my car and paint F-22 on its side, does that make it a fifth gen jet fighter?

Well avionics are a different matter and I can't comment on where the Chinese are with that.

[blackbelter]

Still don't know what plane you're referring to. F-18? F-35?

 

 

 

Take the cover off your computer and check stamp on the board, especially if you have a sound card.

 

I meant F2.

 

I am not in the position to officially deny or admit copying here, neither is any of you. I am just happy that we are on our way to the next generation of jets. And for those who commented on the information technology capabilities of China: you appear to be very well informed, and it is good for you. Keep commenting, please, because we uninformed people are very interested in knowing what you can tell us.. It would be even nicer of you if you could quote your source of information.

Edited September 18, 2012 by blackbelter

[blackbelter]

Right, thanks for clearing that up. However, you do know that the F-2 project was a result of of technology transfers between MHI and LHM? Not exactly a copy, or some stolen hardware. The J-15 however was a blatant copy of the Su-33 of which no transfers or licenses have been approved by the Russian government.

 

As for China copying U.S. hardware. They aren't. It simply isn't feasible given their research base when compared to America. This is mainly because while in general, China has a greater and more diverse worker base. And while China does have more skilled labor than the U.S., the U.S. still has something like 70% of the world's high skilled work force (e.g. scientists) within its borders, and this is unlikely to change. However due to this imbalance, it makes developing new technologies at a rate comparative to the U.S. extremely difficult, and more often than not their only option is to rely on proven tech in mass numbers.

 

Basically what Aaron said.

 

It is important to mention however, that Russia is basically in the same boat here. Though they outsource a lot of their tech now, which makes using more advanced computers and construction techniques a lot more feasible than it used to be (Fall of the Union timeframe).

 

Given what i said in my earliest post in this thread, what is your point? With or without license, F2 is still a copy of F16 albeit not an "exact copy", is it not?

 

I was saying that it would be foolish, at the least, not to mention risking our national security, to abandon something that you can learn easily by studying other jets, and start from zero just for the sake of being original, especially given the quite limited rescources at our disposal, and the urgency of our national security.

 

I am not saying originality and creativity are not welcomed, it's just that we didn't have the time. I am happy to see more and more things uniquely Chinese appear with each generation of jets. For J7, we basically adopted everything from its Russian counter parts. For J11, we adopted the outer shell of Su27. That is not to be denied. But we developed our own avionics system. With the revealing of J20, I am so happy to see our first (or second, the first being J10?) uniquely Chinese jet fighter. With time, we will have our own engine and everything else. We just need some more time, more time!

Edited September 18, 2012 by blackbelter

[Pyroflash]

Still don't know what plane you're referring to. F-18? F-35?

 

 

 

Take the cover off your computer and check stamp on the board, especially if you have a sound card.

 

Capacitors are made primarily in Japan, IC's are developed almost entirely in the U.S., same with the wafers. All China really does is print the boards. All that requires is skilled labor to do the manufacturing. All the high skilled development is still done elsewhere.

 

Reference this by the fact that no consumer producer for processors or GPU's are based in China. They are all run and developed out of the U.S.

 

Really the closest thing is TSC (makes a great deal of the processors for most of the world (Not Intel)) and this guy Jen-Hsun Huang who is the founder and CEO of Nvidia. Both of these parties are Republic of China in any case, which isn't even remotely the same thing as "The People's Republic of China" (Hint, one is a democratic nation on a small island that managed to escape Mao Zedong's purges).

 

Given what i said in my earliest post in this thread, what is your point? With or without license, F2 is still a copy of F16, is it not?

 

I was saying that it would be foolish, at the least, not to mention risking our national security, to abandon something that you can learn easily by studying other jets, and start from zero just for the sake of being original, especially given the quite limited rescources at our disposal, and the urgency of our national security.

 

I am not saying originality and creativity are not welcomed, it's just that we didn't have the time. I am happy to see more and more things uniquely Chinese appear with each generation of jets. For J7, we basically adopted everything from its Russian counter parts. For J11, we adopted the outer shell of Su27. That is not to be denied. But we developed our own avionics system. With the revealing of J20, I am so happy to see our first (or second, the first being J10?) uniquely Chinese jet fighter. With time, we will have our own engine and everything else. We just need some more time, more time!

 

 

No, The F-2 is a radically different aircraft, with much varied capabilities when compared to the basic F-16C that it was developed using information from. It would be like comparing the F/A-18C to the F/A-18E, when they are radically different airframes. They may look the same, kind of, but that is where the similarity ends.

 

As for learning things. Yes, you can learn things, but you aren't going to accomplish very much if you try and copy the outer shell of the F-22A or F-35. This is because the materials and processes used will be inferior and wrong for the most part. This is why nothing was copied, and nothing can be copied. It can only be imitated at this point, which won't make a very good aircraft. Essentially, when dealing with computed design processes (F-35 and F-22A), China is starting from scratch whether they know it or not. So good for them if they want to make their own jet. I will not complain or get angry at it. I am merely trying to dis spell the insinuation that any copying of the F-35 or F-22A is going on, because point in fact, it isn't.

 

At least not like the J-7 (Yeah, I am fully aware that quite a bit of this jet is Chinese, because the sneaky Russians didn't provide all of the tech data to build a stock MiG-21) or J-11/15 was a copy of their Russian counterparts.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Pyroflash

[blackbelter]

Capacitors are made primarily in Japan, IC's are developed almost entirely in the U.S., same with the wafers. All China really does is print the boards. All that requires is skilled labor to do the manufacturing. All the high skilled development is still done elsewhere.

 

Reference this by the fact that no consumer producer for processors or GPU's are based in China. They are all run and developed out of the U.S.

 

Really the closest thing is TSC (makes a great deal of the processors for most of the world (Not Intel)) and this guy Jen-Hsun Huang who is the founder and CEO of Nvidia. Both of these parties are Republic of China in any case, which isn't even remotely the same thing as "The People's Republic of China" (Hint, one is a democratic nation on a small island that managed to escape Mao Zedong's purges).

 

No, The F-2 is a radically different aircraft, with much varied capabilities when compared to the basic F-16C that it was developed using information from. It would be like comparing the F/A-18C to the F/A-18E, when they are radically different airframes. They may look the same, kind of, but that is where the similarity ends.

 

As for learning things. Yes, you can learn things, but you aren't going to accomplish very much if you try and copy the outer shell of the F-22A or F-35. This is because the materials and processes used will be inferior and wrong for the most part. This is why nothing was copied, and nothing can be copied. It can only be imitated at this point, which won't make a very good aircraft. Essentially, when dealing with computed design processes (F-35 and F-22A), China is starting from scratch whether they know it or not. So good for them if they want to make their own jet. I will not complain or get angry at it. I am merely trying to dis spell the insinuation that any copying of the F-35 or F-22A is going on, because point in fact, it isn't.

 

So you think you know that the new Chinese fighters are similar to other aircraft in terms of something that is more than the outer shell, so that they qualify as copying, but F2 do not? Please comment on the similarities, apart from the outer shells, of course, between J20 or J21 and any other aircrafts. Please do. It will be very exciting to know.

 

As for your comments on whether you can accomplish something by using known technologies, i am not taking your word for it. I believe the developers in China know better. If you think all they do is blindly copying, it's up to you. I'll refer you back to my previous posts for my opinion on this matter.

[topol-m]

For J7, we basically adopted everything from its Russian counter parts. For J11, we adopted the outer shell of Su27. That is not to be denied. But we developed our own avionics system. With the revealing of J20, I am so happy to see our first (or second, the first being J10?) uniquely Chinese jet fighter. With time, we will have our own engine and everything else. We just need some more time, more time!

 

I don't know why F-2 is even brought to the discussion, one thing is developing an aircraft in cooperation and through tech transfer, and another thing is illegally copying an aircraft and putting a "Made in China" label on it which is the case with the J-11. :doh:

But they obviously don't like to call that stealing or copying, it's simply "an adoption". I mean seriously put J-11 next to a Su-27 and I'm sure the only chinese thing you will notice about that fighter is the PLAAF's roundel on the tail and the gray paint scheme.