Classified - Devs please Read

[Sleek]

And what about when you pay $100US a month plus hardware to host a public server?

well i think that just show's Ice's commitment to the sim..good on ya! ;)

[33rd_bratpfanne.]

@ Golfsierra: What if i dont like to sit near my PC all night when hosting a mission and survey wheather someone disbehaves on my server?

 

I host from time to time a "Dogfight with two Heaters" (Yes, it has some Fans under the People in this Forum) Mission and its classified bec i dont want People to change their loads. Because thats exactly what happend with or without purpose all the time before i classified it.

 

I second ICE in all his concerns. I upgraded my Internet Connection only for Hosting LockOn Servers with 16 instead of 5! Players. I m willing to buy completely separate Server Hardware at the end of 2005.

 

My Server will not be available any more and from my planed investment only my Squad will profit and not the MP Community if Classifying Payloads and Missions will not be made available again. I think i m not the only one with these Concerns.

 

S!

 

Brati

[AndyHill]

I think LOMAC needs more fine-grained permissions with classification ... ie. classify hidden stuff plus classify payloads (or not - ie. this should be a choice) ... at the same time, fix the declass bug.

 

Also the meinit should always be forced on the client.

 

Exactly. This feature should be both easy to implement and improve things substantially.

[GGTharos]

I'll squash this misconception right now:

 

Security is NOT easy to implement. Ever.

 

Now, with that said, I suspect security might be a lot better in 1.2.

 

Ice, now that you've told everyone exactly how to declass a mission, you might expect some more cheaters to show up ... some things are better left unsaid - believe it or not, not a huge load of people knew about this.

 

Not that I don't understand your frustration, I'm with you on this one as it's a very annoying thing.

[golfsierra2]

@ Golfsierra: What if i dont like to sit near my PC all night when hosting a mission and survey wheather someone disbehaves on my server?

 

I host from time to time a "Dogfight with two Heaters" (Yes, it has some Fans under the People in this Forum) Mission and its classified bec i dont want People to change their loads. Because thats exactly what happend with or without purpose all the time before i classified it.

 

I second ICE in all his concerns. I upgraded my Internet Connection only for Hosting LockOn Servers with 16 instead of 5! Players. I m willing to buy completely separate Server Hardware at the end of 2005.

 

My Server will not be available any more and from my planed investment only my Squad will profit and not the MP Community if Classifying Payloads and Missions will not be made available again. I think i m not the only one with these Concerns.

 

S!

 

Brati

 

@Brati (hab ja verstanden was Du meinst..)

 

It's a pity that you don't host open sessions anymore. I understand your concerns as I understand the concerns posted by the thread starter demanding a better way of classifying missions. However:

 

You cannot prevent people from developing cheats, cracks and mods. Remember the Weapon-Load Mod that came out very early after LO was released. F15 with 8xAIM120 and worse.

 

I mean ED can try to make it harder for people cheating and fooling around with the mission data, however this is an endless story like the story about copy protection. It takes a while, but sometime somebody will come up with another dirty trick, spoiling every safety feature.

 

Nobody can stop it. The only way to handle it is like I wrote before: If you notice somebody cheating, tell others and turn your back on this individual/squadron/host etc...

[SwingKid]

Another reason that classified missions were good was it stopped players from using modded loads and aircraft like the AIM54 on SU33's or 27AE's. It looks like these problems will arise once again :-(

 

Bear with me Ice, I'm trying to follow along but as GG will tell you multiplayer is not SwingKid's forte...

 

Can you confirm that the above problem actually occurs? I'm trying to understand how it happens. The client modifies his payload with a "cheat" MeInit.xml, and that payload gets uploaded to the server, regardless that it is illegal by the server's own MeInit.xml, and all the other clients'?

 

If there is no such check, what was preventing the user from modifying his MeInit.xml so that the Stock payload assigned to him in an old classified, payload-protected mission doesn't substitute AIM-54s? The server was smart enough not to ask for the client's MeInit.xml data in that case?

 

I detect a logical loophole here somewhere, but I'm not sure how it works. The old classification scheme only blocked the mission editor UI, it didn't prevent users from modifying their MeInit.xmls. So, the security against cheating should hardly now be changed. Maybe the cheaters are just too stupid to realize, and a placebo protection prevented them from even trying before? I don't think this is a good strategy for the long run.

 

In any case as GG pointed out I think there are several methods to prevent this type of cheating without blocking the payload editing, but before we discuss them we should be sure they aren't in fact already implemented. We had quite a few online squads beta-testing this and I'm surprised this issue is coming up only now... Maybe I just wasn't paying attention and missed it?

 

-SK

[GGTharos]

SK, the server's meinit is forced onto the client if the mission is classified.

 

Unfortunately, the server's meinit is -not- forced on a client if the mission is declassified. Declasifying the mission allows you to use your own meinit.

 

The other problem is that there is a very easy way to bypass classification.

[SwingKid]

SK, the server's meinit is forced onto the client if the mission is classified.

 

Unfortunately, the server's meinit is -not- forced on a client if the mission is declassified. Declasifying the mission allows you to use your own meinit.

 

Ok, so where does Ice's cheating problem arise? How does having a selectable payload in v1.11 classified missions have any effect on deciding whose MeInit file is being used?

 

The other problem is that there is a very easy way to bypass classification.

 

That's a separate problem, that also has nothing to do with the v1.11 change. We'd all be happy to see that fixed.

 

As far as I can tell, the only thing that's changed for multiplayer is that now F-15s can use AMRAAMs whenever they want? If the server's MeInit.xml is forced onto the client, then just edit the server's MeInit.xml to remove whatever payloads you don't want the clients to be able to choose from.

 

I'm sorry to be slow on this. Help?

 

-SK

[GGTharos]

Er, okay.

 

You bypass the server's meinit xml using the method Ice described. You can instantly shoot AIM-54C's if you have them on your own meinit, on someone's server.

 

As for the EXACT problem you're talking about and sidestepping the other issue, it means the server need to have several versions of the meinit and replace them as the missions are rotated.

 

I'd call that the problem.

[SwingKid]

As for the EXACT problem you're talking about and sidestepping the other issue, it means the server need to have several versions of the meinit and replace them as the missions are rotated.

 

I'd call that the problem.

 

Oh for crying out loud.

 

Before I respond to this, I want to hear from Ice - Is THIS what the problem is? You'd rather that the whole world of single-players have to cheat in order to change payloads in every classified mission they ever play, because it's too hard to change a filename when you can't make up your own mind what you want on your server?

 

No way, there's gotta be something I'm not seeing here...

 

-SK

[GGTharos]

He has missions on which he wants (For example) F-15s to -only- carry AIM-7's and AIM-9's.

For other missions he may want the same F-15's to be able to use 120's.

 

This has nothing to do with single-play, and everything to do with multi-play.

[Ice]

My understanding is that if i classify my mission I've stopped the load editing guys from coming in with missiles that arent realistic. EG. aim 54's on su33's etc.

 

Before 1.1 this was a common occurence. since 1.1, I dont recall a single case.

 

The other valid problem is hosting limited loads like heaters only or guns. Having noobs or vandals coming in with the wrong load can wreck a really good fun session.

[Ice]

:Ice, now that you've told everyone exactly how to declass a mission, you might expect some more cheaters to show up ... some things are better left unsaid - believe it or not, not a huge load of people knew about this.

 

Not that I don't understand your frustration, I'm with you on this one as it's a very annoying thing.

 

I left it unsaid expecting the problem to be fixed for 2 patches. It seemed the devs didnt hear the quiet messages.

 

My reasoning is it needs to be LOUDER

[Bungle_uk]

I must admit, I liked it when servers classified the mission. It made it more challenging when you were limited to only 2 amraams or so. Could it not be possible to declassify all the stock single player missions and bring back the old system, this way single players can choose if they want to change there load and servers can enforce limited loads should they so please, after all. They are the ones paying the money to run the servers.

Just my thoughts on it.

[Jetfire]

Couldn't a Lua script, ran from export.lua, be made to make the player quit the game if he launched a missile that wasn't part of the loadout?

 

Same thing goes for teamkilling: if a player team kills, export.lua could kick him for a tk.

[S77th-GOYA]

I find it kinda laughable to lock a single player mission anyway. If someone chooses to cheat in SP, who cares? For multiplayer, everyone else who is flying cares. The old way was better except, why lock skins and tail number?

 

One problem with people choosing illegal loadouts on a limited loadout server is that few people read the briefing. If the brief popped up automatically it might help.

 

Why aren't these changes announced to the community to see the reaction before they are implemented?

[GGTharos]

It was in fact a community request.

[Ice]

Looks like there are two communities. Only one was taken into consideration.

[SwingKid]

I must admit, I liked it when servers classified the mission.

 

Sleek? Is that you?

 

-SK

[SwingKid]

Looks like there are two communities. Only one was taken into consideration.

 

Indeed. When do single-players get a say? :mad:

 

-SK

[Ice]

I think we can all agree that this problem has been dealt with very poorly.

 

I am very disappointed that there seems to be a lack of understanding of the implications to the multiplayer community.

 

I am also very disappointed that requests for classification bug to be fixed have been ignored.

 

I will put up with the problem(s) and am confident something will be done in upcoming patches or addons.

[S77th-GOYA]

Indeed. When do single-players get a say? :mad:

 

-SK

 

Do SP folks really need ED to stop them from cheating themselves?

[33rd_bratpfanne.]

Couldn't a Lua script, ran from export.lua, be made to make the player quit the game if he launched a missile that wasn't part of the loadout?

 

Same thing goes for teamkilling: if a player team kills, export.lua could kick him for a tk.

 

Good Thought, it might help if we had a Dedicated Server from ED though

 

S!

 

Brati

[GGTharos]

I think kicking someone for a TK is pretty lame. A missile can easily switch targets and hit friendlies, and jammers can easily confuse identification. Now if someone's doing nothing -but- TKing, that's different.

[SwingKid]

I think we can all agree that this problem has been dealt with very poorly.

 

Which problem? The Declassify-by-pressing-Ctrl-C problem, the Change-payloads-in-classified-missions feature, that is real but not yet demonstrated to be a problem, or the MeInit-cheating problem, which has nothing to do with either of the above and hasn't been shown to be changed in v1.11?

 

I am very disappointed that there seems to be a lack of understanding of the implications to the multiplayer community.

 

I don't think it would be very far off the mark to say that 90% of the programming and testing effort for v1.11 revolved around multiplayer. I'd be interested to hear the grounds by which a tester or developer could challenge that statement. This even includes the whole SAMs-hitting-ARMs fiasco, because the SAMs were described as "unbalancing" multiplayer without being able to do this. In fact my theory is that one reason the classification bug was NOT fixed was because it was mistakenly identified as a single-player issue, and thus considered ignorable.

 

I am also very disappointed that requests for classification bug to be fixed have been ignored.

 

On this regard, I share your disappointment. I think this problem affects single-player mode equally as much as multiplayer, and don't see any reason to split the community over it. The ability to declassify mission by pressing Ctrl-C and the ability to change payloads in a classified mission are two completely different effects, and it would help us all if we could keep them straight. Then maybe we could see there is no disagreement here.

 

I will put up with the problem(s) and am confident something will be done in upcoming patches or addons.

 

I wish I shared your confidence, but as far as I can see there is no longer any programmer for the Mission Editor at ED at all. There have been no significant changes to its UI since initial release in 2003.

 

-SK