how to learn aerobatic maneuvers?

[wolle]

Does anyone have/know of youtube tutorials that teach you how to perform various aerobatic maneuvers in a P51? Ideal would be a tutorial that for each maneuver tells what you have to do to stick, rudder and airspeed...

[WildBillKelsoe]

Does anyone have/know of youtube tutorials that teach you how to perform various aerobatic maneuvers in a P51? Ideal would be a tutorial that for each maneuver tells what you have to do to stick, rudder and airspeed...

 

you neeed a 1940's vet. this is not something you could find burried in the pages of a book.

[mmaruda]

From my experience, you need to go online with someone who can do all the tricks and have them teach you. That's how I learned the hammerhead.

 

As for standard aerobatics like barrel roll, loop, split-s and such, these are easy, just practice and keep that magic ball in the middle (rudder is key for anything done in old planes).

 

If you need to know what the manoeuvres are and their theory, Wikipedia has a nice article:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobatic_maneuver

[Ali Fish]

Today i will be mostly practicing the Lomcovak lol

 

Pitch up to the 45 simultaneously roll to the left with aeileron and kick in full left rudder, then shove the stick full forward. The aeroplane should do about two full rotations before running out of energy. Neutralise all controls and the aircraft will recover with the nose down. Fly out of it and correct accordingly.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Ali Fish

[aaron886]

IRL, the P-51 would probably rip itself apart if you tried to pull off a "Lomcevak." The gyroscopic forces on the aircraft and particularly on the prop-shaft are immense.

[Ali Fish]

IRL, the P-51 would probably rip itself apart if you tried to pull off a "Lomcevak." The gyroscopic forces on the aircraft and particularly on the prop-shaft are immense.

 

yes this is very true. and for final release iam expecting just that from ED ! (only joking)

 

but aslong as i live i dont mind. in sp the failures list after any of my aerobatic flights prove to be longer than they should be always. so definetly the p51 is not a plane to be trying such things. combat manoevers only. but i`ll still try :) as i dont see any other props around.

 

its that guy mac`s fault !

Edited August 8, 2012 by Ali Fish

[MACADEMIC]

Lol, good to hear you're having fun! Haven't heard about the Lomcovak before but worth a try! It's been too long I've been separated from my P-51 due to work, hope to catch up again soon!

 

Cheers, MAC

[sobek]

IRL, the P-51 would probably rip itself apart if you tried to pull off a "Lomcevak." The gyroscopic forces on the aircraft and particularly on the prop-shaft are immense.

 

Why would they be any greater than in a normal tailspin, which the aircraft is able to survive in general?

[Yo-Yo]

Does anyone have/know of youtube tutorials that teach you how to perform various aerobatic maneuvers in a P51? Ideal would be a tutorial that for each maneuver tells what you have to do to stick, rudder and airspeed...

 

Ok, basics just in two words:

 

aileron roll - 200 mph and more IAS, nose up 20 deg. stick full left/right. The most hard is to stop - you must apply a shot of opposite stick to nail it to the horison.

 

barrel roll - 300 and more, nose up 30 and more degreees depending on altitude, pull stick to 1.5-2g and roll the plane holding the AoA (stick longitudal position).

 

Looping - 320-350 IAS, gently pull the stick to 4-6 g then hold it. As you at the top IAS must be not less 140. Apply necessary amount of right rudder to keep the ball centered and a touch of rigt stick to maintain wing level.

 

Immelman - 350 IAS, and perform an aileron roll as the nose was 20 deg over horison when the plane is inverted.

 

Wingover - zoom 60-70 degree, when the IAS is 150 bank the plane to 90 deg. Wait for the nose dropped 40-50 deg then proceed rolling the plane in the same direction and pull the stick to get reverse direction.

 

Half of a Cuban Eight - perform 5/8 of a loop, stop pulling the stick and let the plane fly sraight inverted at 45 deg to the ground. Then roll it 180 deg and you are diving at 45 deg wheels down. Recover from diving or get the altitude you began the loop and perform the second half of a Cuban eight.

 

All this aerobatics is better to perform at the unarmed plane having 33% of fuel . 42-46" 2700 rpm will be perfect all the way.

[aaron886]

Why would they be any greater than in a normal tailspin, which the aircraft is able to survive in general?

 

Very much so. A spin is an aerodynamic mode. A lomcevak is a gyroscopic maneuver, in which heavy side-loads cause the precession effect of the propeller to rotate the aircraft.

 

PS. Not exactly sure what you mean by "tailspin" (not a technical term as far as I know,) so I took a guess.

[wolle]

Thanks guys!

 

I'll try all your suggestions tonight after work...

[sobek]

Very much so. A spin is an aerodynamic mode. A lomcevak is a gyroscopic maneuver, in which heavy side-loads cause the precession effect of the propeller to rotate the aircraft.

 

As long as the aircraft rotates around any axis that is not coaxial with the propeller rotation axis, gyroscopic forces will result, whether they have an impact or not on the trajectory/attitude is no indicator of their strength but rather on the absence of other forces negating them. E.g. a fast flat spin around the top-bottom axis of the plane will result in a very strong gyroscopic moment.

Edited August 8, 2012 by sobek

[Bucic]

My advices:

 

1. time needed to practice ~ 1/knownledge:

If you know very little about all of the forces acting on A/C during meneuvers, you'll reduce the time needed for practice to minimum. Of course if you know squat ;) it might be the case you'll never learn even how to execute a proper loop (when done 'just by pulling on the stick' on a single-engine A/C it will alway go wrong at the top due to gyroscopic effects).

 

Get yourself an FAA Pilot's handbook in PDF for free.

 

2. Propeller makes everything hard!

Gyroscopic effect, P-factor, prop stream effect - it will all make your maneuvers miserable in the beginning.

a1) avoid high power, low speed conditions (prop wash effect will increase)

a2) avoid meneuvers involving quick A/C 'janking' (gyro effect will occur)

b) eliminate the propeller altogether! You heard me right. Make Mustang a glider by killing the engine*. By starting at e.g. 6000 m altitude you'll be able to perform quite a few loops regaining enough speed each time to start another loop.

 

By 'avoid' I of course mean put such maneuvers at the end of your training list.

[aaron886]

As long as the aircraft rotates around any axis that is not coaxial with the propeller rotation axis, gyroscopic forces will result, whether they have an impact or not on the trajectory/attitude is no indicator of their strength but rather on the absence of other forces negating them. E.g. a fast flat spin around the top-bottom axis of the plane will result in a very strong gyroscopic moment.

 

Don't take my word for it then, go ask some competition aerobatic pilots. :glare:

[sobek]

Don't take my word for it then, go ask some competition aerobatic pilots. :glare:

 

Not trying to be argumentative, i just don't understand why this would put any more load on the airframe than a conventional flatspin. Are the yaw rates involved that high?

[Druid_]

Today i will be mostly practicing the Lomcovak lol

 

Pitch up to the 45 simultaneously roll to the left with aeileron and kick in full left rudder, then shove the stick full forward. The aeroplane should do about two full rotations before running out of energy. Neutralise all controls and the aircraft will recover with the nose down. Fly out of it and correct accordingly.

 

Just a small correction, a lomcevak is done with full RIGHT rudder, left aileron and stick full forward.

 

IRL, the P-51 would probably rip itself apart if you tried to pull off a "Lomcevak." The gyroscopic forces on the aircraft and particularly on the prop-shaft are immense.

never heard of gyroscopic forces on a prop shift being a limitation for this manoeuvre. It's a pro spin manoeuvre (depending on aircraft type) much like a flick roll and g forces are usually more limiting especially as the manoeuvre induces negative g initially before gyroscopic forces become more prevalent, which is why the manoeuvre is initiate at slow to medium speeds I doubt a light P51 would have too much trouble coping with this manoeuvre although the wing isn't suited to it.

 

Semi-Aerobatic Aircraft with much lower g limits than the P51 have done lomcevaks, the main problem is that they lack the power to sustain them and as a result it's weak and not pretty. They don't disintegrate as a result of gyroscopic forces.

[Ali Fish]

hmm. i ripped my comment from the wiki, also theres alot of missing information on wiki, i bet alot of folks round here could really help fill in the blanks.

 

Just a small correction, a lomcevak is done with full RIGHT rudder, left aileron and stick full forward.

.

 

Edited August 8, 2012 by Ali Fish

[aaron886]

Not trying to be argumentative, i just don't understand why this would put any more load on the airframe than a conventional flatspin. Are the yaw rates involved that high?

 

Yes... that's the point! A true lomcevak is (maybe obviously) a departure from controlled flight in which gyroscopic forces are the primary source of rotation throughout the maneuver. Yaw rates are extreme, such that the airplane appears to be traveling almost sideways. EDIT: Ooh yeah, check out the video Ali posted above. Great example.

 

Just a small correction, a lomcevak is done with full RIGHT rudder, left aileron and stick full forward.

 

Not really, that depends on the direction of the prop.

 

 

never heard of gyroscopic forces on a prop shift being a limitation for this manoeuvre.

 

Not as if I've done any (yet :D,) but I've heard of prop shafts growing stress fractures, prop hubs themselves being broken, and wooden propellers shattering. Particularly in the early days, when this maneuver was not so fully understood. Bless those crazy Czechs!

 

 

One last edit: Found a nice little article (rare on the internet) by an RC hobbyist. This closely matches the aerobatic texts I've read in its description of various subtypes of Lomcevak and its effect on plane and pilot: http://www.djaerotech.com/dj_askjd/dj_questions/lomcevak.html

Edited August 8, 2012 by aaron886

[sobek]

I'm still sceptic that it would cause structural damage on the aircraft, it would probably shorten the service life of some components but to think that it would really cause a failure on the prop assembly, i don't know. One would assume that an aircraft that was made to take some punishment is sufficiently over-engineered to cope with those peak loads.

[aaron886]

One would assume that an aircraft that was made to take some punishment is sufficiently over-engineered to cope with those peak loads.

 

Certainly today, the light aerobatic aircraft like anything MX, Zivko, Extra... those are. This kind of maneuvering throws up structural loads that most (and pretty much all old) aircraft are not designed to take... they're designed to stress in certain ways only.

 

From what I've heard, the Stang is a tank, but it's just as important to consider how the force is applied as its magnitude.

[BudgieSmuggler]

Having flown a little bit (aerobatics plus some circuits), I think I would suggest stick to coordinated maneuvers (loops, rolls, barrel rolls) for a while until you get a good feel for flying coordinated. Then less coordinated maneuvers (stall turn, wingovers and combat loop).

 

Uncoordinated maneuvers (spins, lomcovak etc.) are not going to help you learn flying, are to be avoided at all costs during combat flights and normal operation and will teach you bad habits so learn these last.

 

Above all, step on the ball!

[Double_D]

Uncoordinated maneuvers (spins, lomcovak etc.) are not going to help you learn flying, are to be avoided at all costs during combat flights and normal operation and will teach you bad habits so learn these last.

 

Above all, step on the ball!

 

I agree these are not learning formation pattern routine's..stay away from them..:music_whistling:

Edited August 9, 2012 by Double_D

[wolle]

Regarding the barrel roll: one of you said to give it (e.g.) left aileron and some elevator up. The amount of elevator up should be chosen to keep a constant angle of attack (AoA). How do I assess my AoA, there isn't an instrument to display that, right?

[aaron886]

In its absence, if you maintain a relatively constant airspeed, you can reference G. Regardless of what instruments you reference during the maneuver, you should aim to enter and exit at equal altitude and airspeed. (No energy gained or lost.)

[Yo-Yo]

Regarding the barrel roll: one of you said to give it (e.g.) left aileron and some elevator up. The amount of elevator up should be chosen to keep a constant angle of attack (AoA). How do I assess my AoA, there isn't an instrument to display that, right?

 

Generally, the AoA is considered constant if you maintain constant elevator deflection. So, just maintain constant longitudal stick deflection. As the speed will not be constant during the maneuver the plane will have different g-load.