Ракеты в DCS

[Max1mus]

7 minutes ago, Kachubey said:

Забудьте, не будет у красных зеркального ответа в ДКС в нынешней обстановке - никогда

Согласен, просто официальное "НЕТ" ЕД до сих пор нам дать не хочет. Но за то говорит что саддамский МиГ-29А против Метеора, это допустимо потому что "так и в реалье"...

[FoxAlfa]

2 hours ago, Chizh said:

We have such document. See table from MiG-29 manual. 

Controlled flight time = 60 seconds.

Isn't that radio correction timer connected to the fire control radar of 29?
Manual states once the missile is launched, it turns the 60 sec timer for radio correction and that is why it is the same both for R-27R and R-27RE. 

Limitation is within the implementation of the RL fire control radar, not the missile. We really need that CFD to tell how missile is performing

 

PS I think that is also why missiles can guide even if STT is dropped at close range in quasi-flood mode. Timer resets only after 60 sec, or for a Sukhoi on the 3dr missile launch if 2nd are already in the air.

Edited January 29, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[GGTharos]

Does the rocket motor of the ER affect how much battery power there is, somehow?  I mean it could be for more than 60 seconds, but if the battery isn't part of the rocket motor module then there's no reason to believe that it's more than the R-27 basic version.

[FoxAlfa]

9 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

Does the rocket motor of the ER affect how much battery power there is, somehow? I mean it could be for more than 60 seconds, but if the battery isn't part of the rocket motor module then there's no reason to believe that it's more than the R-27 basic version.

Could be, R-27 is a modular missile by design ... so, there could be quite a number of part variation or even upgrades we don't know about ... Russians don't always advertise changes by change of the letter or number ... part of maskirovka ... in the end that is why we need to base the performance on the CFD modeling since that is only same base for all missiles we can trust.

Edited January 29, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[BlackPixxel]

26 minutes ago, FoxAlfa said:

Isn't that radio correction timer connected to the fire control radar of 29?
Manual states once the missile is launched, it turns the 60 sec timer for radio correction and that is why it is the same both for R-27R and R-27RE. 

Limitation is within the implementation of the RL fire control radar, not the missile. We really need that CFD to tell how missile is performing

 

PS I think that is also why missiles can guide even if STT is dropped at close range in quasi-flood mode. Timer resets only after 60 sec, or for a Sukhoi on the 3dr missile launch if 2nd are already in the air.

 

 

The number is there for all variants. T/ET and P/EP are fire and forget. So it is not about the illumination time of the radar.

[FoxAlfa]

4 minutes ago, BlackPixxel said:

 

The number is there for all variants. T/ET and P/EP are fire and forget. So it is not about the illumination time of the radar.

 

I agree, you are correct, but that still doesn't tell us much about the performance of the missile before the timer runs out

Edited January 29, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[GGTharos]

19 minutes ago, FoxAlfa said:

Could be, R-27 is a modular missile by design ... so, there could be quite a number of part variation or even upgrades we don't know about ... Russians don't always advertise changes by change of the letter or number ... part of maskirovka ... in the end that is why we need to base the performance on the CFD modeling since that is only same base for all missiles we can trust.

 

How about we talk about things we know instead of things we don't - again, 'could be' isn't really a thing.     I just remembered that there's a flyout graph that you can use to argue useful flight time, this flyout graph goes beyond 60 seconds.

 

I don't know why it goes beyond that time, but either way, it's there for a high altitude launch.   At lower altitudes, the limitation is flight physics - this represents a maximum-distance-from-aircraft scenario until the missile drops to launch speed.

Edited January 29, 2021 by GGTharos

[FoxAlfa]

2 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

How about we talk about things we know instead of things we don't - again, 'could be' isn't really a thing. 

The only thing I am arguing for is CFD, you don't agree we need it?

[GGTharos]

Just now, FoxAlfa said:

The only thing I am arguing for is CFD, you don't agree we need it?

 

I agree that there should be one standard.  I also understand why it's not happening as fast as we'd like to and I agree that it sucks.

At the same time, I don't think you'll get much better performance out of the missile based on that CFD, but who knows - we'll see.  I would certainly like to see the results of that CFD.

[BlackPixxel]

I think what most are actually looking for is that the game mechanics for the R-27 guidance get fixed, just as Aim-120 guidance was improved with the autopilot rework.

 

I mean, I would not mind if my R-27 would have half the range, if only there was not this stupid mechanic where everytime a target turns through the notch my radar switches instantly to EO and the missile turns into unilluminated chaff.

Edited January 29, 2021 by BlackPixxel

[Chizh]

1 час назад, FoxAlfa сказал:

Isn't that radio correction timer connected to the fire control radar of 29?
Manual states once the missile is launched, it turns the 60 sec timer for radio correction and that is why it is the same both for R-27R and R-27RE. 

Limitation is within the implementation of the RL fire control radar, not the missile. We really need that CFD to tell how missile is performing

 

PS I think that is also why missiles can guide even if STT is dropped at close range in quasi-flood mode. Timer resets only after 60 sec, or for a Sukhoi on the 3dr missile launch if 2nd are already in the air.

 

60 seconds is a working time of electric power device. Further - uncontrolled flight in ballistics.

[Max1mus]

6 minutes ago, BlackPixxel said:

I think what most are actually looking for is that the game mechanics for the R-27 guidance get fixed, just as Aim-120 guidance was improved with the autopilot rework.

 

I mean, I would not mind if my R-27 would have half the range, if only there was not this stupid mechanic where everytime a target turns through the notch my radar switches instantly to EO and the missile turns into unilluminated chaff.

 

While this is still a thing, you wont even make it to that point:

 
 

[Fuerte]

Carpe diem
 

 

[sylkhan]

(book) Vladimir Mikhailov, general of the Army, commander in chef of the air force
R27 firing range, head on attack (maximum)
- 72 km (R-27T)
- 120 km (R-27ET)
- 80 km (R-27R)
- 130 km (R-27ER)

 

Perhaps somenone know better in this forum ?

[Max1mus]

@Chizhi forgot to add labels to 2 tracks, i uploaded them to the post above.

[Chizh]

17 минут назад, sylkhan сказал:

(book) Vladimir Mikhailov, general of the Army, commander in chef of the air force
R27 firing range, head on attack (maximum)
- 72 km (R-27T)
- 120 km (R-27ET)
- 80 km (R-27R)
- 130 km (R-27ER)

 

Here is written the theoretical, calculated range at high altitude and speed.
The R-27ET missile's range of 120 km can be performed only if you shoot at a launching Space Shuttle. The missile is not capable of lockon standard aircraft at such range in head-on position.

 

 

[Москва]

3 часа назад, Kachubey сказал:

Реальность в отсутствии баланса

Может быть у нас и есть, какие-то интересные конкурентные разработки, что бы дать "зеркальный ответ" (в чем я сомневаюсь), но информации о них нет. Тем более с новыми отличными законами, это накладывает определенные риски

ЕД же не виноваты в том, что у нас засекречивают, а там рассекречивают) ЕД лишь использует открытые данные

Мы можем только тестировать их результат

реальность дкс и реальность в жизни как-то не стыкуются ! зачем индии закупать убогие р-27 причём не малой партией против потенциальных противников имеющих аим-120с7 и пл-10 да ещё рисковать попасть под санкции самой чесной демократии. дикие люди оторванные от реала и логики. 

[sylkhan]

29 minutes ago, Chizh said:

Here is written the theoretical,

Nonsense, he is written the practical.

 

29 minutes ago, Chizh said:

 calculated range at high altitude and speed.

Correct, you can see the word "maximum", but we can't achieve these ranges in DCS

29 minutes ago, Chizh said:

The R-27ET missile's range of 120 km can be performed only if you shoot at a launching Space Shuttle.

And when the US pilot said the R-27ER outrange our AMRAAM, he was at space shuttle too ?

For the ET it's another story ---> classified, i suspect russian to have similar technology as ours (french) but like i said --->classified

Edited January 29, 2021 by sylkhan

[Chizh]

In the game, we can launch R-27ER at 115 km range. See track.

If there was a SR-71 in the game, then we could perform 130 km launch range, as the general writes.

Su-27 R-27ER launch at 115 km.trk

[Chizh]

7 минут назад, sylkhan сказал:

Nonsense, he is written practical.

Practical data are written in aircraft manuals. What is written in open literature can often have a very distant relationship to reality.

 

7 минут назад, sylkhan сказал:

And when the US pilot said the R-27ER outrange our AMRAAM, he was at space shuttle too ?

R-27ER has a greater speed and range then AIM-120С in the 60 seconds. After that 120C has advantage.

I showed it earlier.

[sylkhan]

17 minutes ago, Chizh said:

R-27ER has a greater speed and range then AIM-120С in the 60 seconds.

And ?? what the point with your 60s.

The only question is :

do the R-27ER outrange the AMRAAM, In DCS like in real life ? (at same speed and lauching altitude)

Edited January 29, 2021 by sylkhan

[TotenDead]

10 минут назад, Chizh сказал:

R-27ER has a greater speed and range then AIM-120С in the 60 seconds. After that 120C has advantage.

I showed it earlier.

Летчик ВВС США говорил, что у Р-27ЭР больше дальность, чем у амраама, а не то, что ракета за 60 секунд улетает дальше. Не может же американец врать, верно?)

7 часов назад, Chizh сказал:

 

А для корректировки нужны проверенные или официальные данные. 

Поделись проверенными или официальными данными по амрааму по которым вы его настраивали, это наверняка снимет если не все, то многие вопросы. Ведь вы же по таким данным настраивали, верно?

[Kachubey]

37 минут назад, Москва сказал:

реальность дкс и реальность в жизни как-то не стыкуются ! зачем индии закупать убогие р-27 причём не малой партией против потенциальных противников имеющих аим-120с7 и пл-10 да ещё рисковать попасть под санкции самой чесной демократии. дикие люди оторванные от реала и логики. 

Ну опять таки, сомневаюсь, что те данные которые есть у Индии - есть в свободном доступе.

А создавать ракеты на догадках и спекуляциях еще хуже, чем то что есть

[TotenDead]

Только что, Kachubey сказал:

Ну опять таки, сомневаюсь, что те данные которые есть у Индии - есть в свободном доступе.

А создавать ракеты на догадках и спекуляциях еще хуже, чем то что есть

Так... Кхм... Уже создали

[Chizh]

50 минут назад, sylkhan сказал:

And ?? what the point with your 60s.

The only question is :

do the R-27ER outrange the AMRAAM, In DCS like in real life ? (at same speed and lauching altitude)

 

AIM-120С is superior in range to R-27ER because 27ER has less controlled flight time.