Ракеты в DCS

[Chizh]

Возвращаясь к нашим баранам. Формальное принятие на вооружение ракеты Р-27 не гарантирует ее боевую эффективность.

[FoxAlfa]

I think most of issues raised in this forum come since missles don't have a common base they are built from in to the simulator.

Ones have use old API, other new... AP also... Drag modeling is based on judgment calls... Some have been CFD some not... End even the CFDs have been performed with different software...

So, only way to put most of the things to rest is to establish a common base line.

So CFD is needed with same parameter sets (not a sliver built but it should establish drag relations between missiles) and migration to new common API/AP.

But this takes a long time and lot of recourses, finishing AIM-120 is a good step forward after that we can only hope ED focus their efforts on other AA missiles with higher priority on the R-27 and R-77

 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[henshao]

1 hour ago, FoxAlfa said:

So, only way to put most of the things to rest is to establish a common base line.

 

This applies to more than just missiles in this game

[BlackPixxel]

19 hours ago, Chizh said:

In order to say so, you need some real data on the CCM R-27R/ER. Do you have it? I do not think.
Of the publicly available, we have pretty limited information on the use of these missiles in the Eritrean conflict, where they showed zero effectiveness, including, probably due to countermeasures.

And the real data on the CCM of Aim-120, Aim-7, Aim-54 etc?

[okopanja]

9 hours ago, FoxAlfa said:

So CFD is needed with same parameter sets (not a sliver built but it should establish drag relations between missiles) and migration to new common API/AP.

Do you have to the same error message in latest openbeta in your dcs.log? Sounds to me like mistral is inheriting some default values...

Quote

2021-12-02 20:29:15.661 ERROR   WEAPONSBASE: invalid cx data <weapons.missiles.MBDA_Mistral><./CoreMods/aircraft/SA342/SA342_Weapons.lua>

 

[okopanja]

11 hours ago, Chizh said:

По таким же непроверенным данным Фениксы имеют боевой счет в ВВС Ирана

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/former-iriaf-f-14-pilot-explains-how-he-was-able-to-score-16-aerial-kills-in-the-tomcat-eight-with-the-aim-54-phoenix-missile-two-with-the-m61a-vulcan-gun-and-one-with-the-mim-23-hawk-missile/

First I  apologize for not speaking the Russian and replying here. I gather you are probably upset with all of the people questioning the modeling of weapon systems.

I read the article with great enthusiasm but tried to focus on launch conditions:

first: 13 to 15nm
second/third: < 45nm (45 nm was distance they got lock/track?)
fifth/six: ?/10-11nm
seventh: 20nm
eight/ninth: unclear if kills were made at all and at which distance (credited 31 years later credited with kills, could be also due to political motivation).

Do not get me wrong but, it looks AIM-54 mostly have confirmed  kills at 10-20nm at this stage of war. Until I read the article you quoted, I was under impression that Iranians were doing this at much longer ranges, mostly due the fact the initial victims were apparently oblivious to the mode of operation and range of AWG-9/AIM-54A.

May I suggest collecting all known encounters for each missile in DCS with known launch parameters/terrain information? It would be nice if the link or even copy of the article could be somehow preserved.

I believe presenting of tables/stats would make it more clear on relative effectiveness of weapon platform and weapon itself under realistic war conditions. As for R family it seams we would need to wait for someone to prove their effectiveness either with permissible documents, reverse engineering or simply put real life example.

[Harlikwin]

10 hours ago, henshao said:

 

This applies to more than just missiles in this game

 

Yeah, modeling radars to a similar level of fidelity has to become a thing as well. Esp with the new razbam M2k model, makes ED's work on the hornet and F16 look not good by comparison.

56 minutes ago, okopanja said:

First I  apologize for not speaking the Russian and replying here. I gather you are probably upset with all of the people questioning the modeling of weapon systems.

I read the article with great enthusiasm but tried to focus on launch conditions:

first: 13 to 15nm
second/third: < 45nm (45 nm was distance they got lock/track?)
fifth/six: ?/10-11nm
seventh: 20nm
eight/ninth: unclear if kills were made at all and at which distance (credited 31 years later credited with kills, could be also due to political motivation).

Do not get me wrong but, it looks AIM-54 mostly have confirmed  kills at 10-20nm at this stage of war. Until I read the article you quoted, I was under impression that Iranians were doing this at much longer ranges, mostly due the fact the initial victims were apparently oblivious to the mode of operation and range of AWG-9/AIM-54A.

May I suggest collecting all known encounters for each missile in DCS with known launch parameters/terrain information? It would be nice if the link or even copy of the article could be somehow preserved.

I believe presenting of tables/stats would make it more clear on relative effectiveness of weapon platform and weapon itself under realistic war conditions. As for R family it seams we would need to wait for someone to prove their effectiveness either with permissible documents, reverse engineering or simply put real life example.

 

Honestly, while the iranians certainly got kills with the phoenix, how many vs how many missiles fired is still pretty contentious. If you assume they expended most of their missiles (274 to get say 78 kills, and say they still had 50-100 operational so 174 per 78 kills, still not "great a pK". 

Even the Aim7M had like 50-60% pK in ODS. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Harlikwin

[Teknetinium]

On 12/2/2021 at 3:13 AM, Chizh said:

In order to say so, you need some real data on the CCM R-27R/ER. Do you have it? I do not think.
Of the publicly available, we have pretty limited information on the use of these missiles in the Eritrean conflict, where they showed zero effectiveness, including, probably due to countermeasures.

Do you think with same analogy about AIM-9X in Syria as R-27 in Eritrea? Or could it be that we were dealing with untrained pilots using this at the time new weapons? If we will go that way, count how many AIM-120 it took to bring down one Serbian MIG-29A with no Jammers/CCM or SPO and build your analogy from there as well.  

Im not arguing with you and Im sure you have more intel then me but some of your comments dont hold ground as neutral.
As you probably know In a fight 90% of the missiles are not fired to kill but to get a tactical advantage in order to kill. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Teknetinium

[Chizh]

30 минут назад, Teknetinium сказал:

Do you think with same analogy about AIM-9X in Syria as R-27 in Eritrea? Or could it be that we were dealing with untrained pilots using this at the time new weapons? If we will go that way, count how many AIM-120 it took to bring down one Serbian MIG-29A with no Jammers/CCM or SPO and build your analogy from there as well.  

I've done that before. AIM-120 showed a high kill probability coefficient of about 0.6.
At DCS, online is about the same.

[Teknetinium]

2 minutes ago, Chizh said:

I've done that before. AIM-120 showed a high kill probability coefficient of about 0.6.
At DCS, online is about the same.

Great work so far, keep up the good work! Best wishes comrade! 

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Teknetinium

[Chizh]

48 минут назад, Teknetinium сказал:

As you probably know In a fight 90% of the missiles are not fired to kill but to get a tactical advantage in order to kill. 

 

Nothing like this. No pilot in his right mind would waste an expensive missile just like that. All launches are performed with target lock in the DLZ.

[Teknetinium]

3 minutes ago, Chizh said:

Nothing like this. No pilot in his right mind would waste an expensive missile just like that. All launches are performed with target lock and in the DLZ zone.

I think you would do a lot not to get killed in A2A combat. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Teknetinium

[Chizh]

4 минуты назад, Teknetinium сказал:

I think you would do a lot not to get killed in A2A combat. 

 

You are entitled to your fantasies.

[Teknetinium]

8 minutes ago, Chizh said:

You are entitled to your fantasies.

That's why I fly DCS  I think you misunderstood me, Fire within DLZ at max range 30-60 is not the same as waiting to 10km.  

Edited December 3, 2021 by Teknetinium

[Chizh]

17 минут назад, Teknetinium сказал:

That's why I fly DCS  I think you misunderstood me, Fire within DLZ at max range 30-60 is not the same as waiting to 10km.  

 

I wrote to you about reality. In the game, players are free to do whatever they want.

[Teknetinium]

20 minutes ago, Chizh said:

I wrote to you about reality. In the game, players are free to do whatever they want.

Yes, in RL missiles have less probability to hit at max range, I dont underhand what the argument is. I just asked you if you used same analogy when building your educated opinion about AIM-9X/AIM-120 as R-27?

Edited December 3, 2021 by Teknetinium

[okopanja]

2 minutes ago, Chizh said:

I wrote to you about reality. In the game, players are free to do whatever they want.

This is why I would suggest assembling the comprehensive list of real world usage of such missiles.

The problem is that these information are not always published or disclosed (unless useful in media). However as time passes we get more and more insight into these incidents. Therefore it would be useful to collect such cases.

As for AIM-54/AWG-9 I do not doubt that it was a deadly combination in late 70s and 80s, but according to other articles on that site, it appears the jamming/terrain was used in many cases and has likely reduced the range at which they could be fired effectively.

 

[Chizh]

1 час назад, Teknetinium сказал:

Yes, in RL missiles have less probability to hit at max range, I dont underhand what the argument is. I just asked you if you used same analogy when building your educated opinion about AIM-9X/AIM-120 as R-27?

 

Yes, we have a unified approach based on the of missile generation. The CCM param of the R-27R is the same the AIM-7M.

[okopanja]

2 hours ago, Teknetinium said:

Do you think with same analogy about AIM-9X in Syria as R-27 in Eritrea? Or could it be that we were dealing with untrained pilots using this at the time new weapons? If we will go that way, count how many AIM-120 it took to bring down one Serbian MIG-29A with no Jammers/CCM or SPO and build your analogy from there as well.  

Im not arguing with you and Im sure you have more intel then me but some of your comments dont hold ground as neutral.
As you probably know In a fight 90% of the missiles are not fired to kill but to get a tactical advantage in order to kill. 

Can you tell us more about the context of this photo? I see it is traveling at 333 km/h (it displays descend rate in m/s, flying toward the west in later afternoon/evening), is it a drone?

Engine appears to be rear mounted...

Location?

[Chizh]

Missile in this picture is photoshoped.

[okopanja]

9 minutes ago, Chizh said:

Missile in this picture is photoshoped.

I trust you verified it, but can you provide more info about the original?

[BlackPixxel]

There is a video somewhere where multiple images of the approach of the rocket are shown. There it can clearly be seen that at least a few of them are fake.

 

Edit: Here is the video

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by BlackPixxel

[FoxAlfa]

1 hour ago, okopanja said:

Can you tell us more about the context of this photo? I see it is traveling at 333 km/h (it displays descend rate in m/s, flying toward the west in later afternoon/evening), is it a drone?

Engine appears to be rear mounted...

Location?

If you want nice video of R-27 being fired and hitting a look down flanking target here, you go:

Again, it is hard to tell any parameters from the video.
 

[okopanja]

1 hour ago, BlackPixxel said:

There is a video somewhere where multiple images of the approach of the rocket are shown. There it can clearly be seen that at least a few of them are fake.

 

Edit: Here is the video

 

 

2 hours ago, Chizh said:

Missile in this picture is photoshoped.

Well, I am the guy who normally pays attention to the details (or maybe I am just not tired of endless arguing in this topic yet), it would seem that perhaps the image is not a photoshop after all. Do you actually know this for a fact, or you just presume it is a photoshop?

The drone appears to be launched from ground at 00:34. I made a still image here. There are Cyrillic letters there, so this could be of Bulgarian (most likely since this practice took place there), Russian, Ukrainian or Serbian origin.

Also the drone that took that picture is fairly small. I can not judge its RCS, but I suspect it is rather low. The wing colors and shapes correspond to the one found in the original still, as well as the position of motor and camera. Image appears to be transmitted, since I do not thing much left from this drone.

[okopanja]

Here is another one of the RUM-R-01 drone (in this case hit by the SAM). However this was taken from camera in other position, likely below the nose. Also there are 6 years between these events.

It is of Bulgarian origin:

https://www.business.bg/f-1642/telesis-ood.html

Edited December 3, 2021 by okopanja