phd_doc Posted September 26, 2012 Posted September 26, 2012 Reprinted from the SimHQ forums. I thought I would ask in another location to try to get more opinions. Thank you in advance for your time and feedback. I. Introduction and Thesis II. HOTAS Pros III. HOTAS Cons IV. Conclusion V. Request for the Community VI. Addendum I. Introduction and Thesis Coming up at the end of this year, I have been given the blessing of my better half to enter HOTAS-land. After much contemplating, I still have not decided what I want. However, I have narrowed the field to 5 potentials (maybe even just 3, depending). Following isn't a generic (that's Gen'eric!) list of pros and cons, but instead, is a list that is important to me. I will be considering the purchase of pedals as well, so look for it, as well as a cost breakdown in the conclusion section. (all prices valid as of 09-14-2012. I am aware that the prices may be currently different, and that they fluctuate due to market forces) The HOTAS in question are the standard 5 that everyone is aware of, so let's get right into it! II. HOTAS Pros A. Thrustmaster Warthog Everyone really loves this HOTAS, and for good reason, right? Everything I read about it says that it is just on this side of bulletproof, and that it has all the programmable buttons anyone needs. The build feels great and the throttle tension is adjustable (and split in twain, for just the right reasons!). In short, this thing feels like it will really last. B. Saitek x65 Sex appeal on this = 10 (YMMV). Oh, and has a split throttle, can't forget that! Many knobs and switches adorn the throttle (me likey!), and the stick has its share of love, too. C. Saitek x52 Pro For a long time this HOTAS has really caught my eye. The "sci-fi" look doesn't bother me. In fact, I like the look. It glows too, so kudos there. Does that MFD do anything yet with any community programming? It might! But I don't know if I want to look down at it. Still, looks classy. D. CH Products Fighterstick + Pro Throttle USB Everyone says CH stuff is bulletproof. Definitely a plus. Also, the programming software makes the HOTAS (and pedals) mimic one device, so I would be able to use this in older games (read here, Tie Fighter). Bonus. E. Logitech G940 It is made by Logitech, and I have always used Logitech products. If Jeff Gordon was sponsored by Logitech instead of Dupont, I might root for him. (If I watched NASCAR, but I don't) Split throttle. It comes with pedals too, so I don't have to buy another device. III. HOTAS Cons A. Thrustmaster Warthog Expensive, considering pedals are also required. If purchased today, this HOTAS would cost $484. Pedals add another $87 or $105, depending on the brand. B. Saitek x65 Also expensive, but not as. Today, I would shell out $304, plus pedals. And the force-sensing stick. A little afraid of that. C. Saitek x52 Pro No split throttle. D. CH Products Fighterstick + Pro Throttle USB Lack of info on the friction level of the throttle. I have read that there is no friction setting (not needed because of the slide action) and that the action is stiff. I worried about it being too loose, but I guess I just don’t have enough info. Throttle sex appeal is non-existent. Throttle not split. E. Logitech G940 Don’t need force feedback. Also, the contraption will register as 3 different devices, so no Tie Fighter for me. IV. Conclusion A. Thrustmaster Warthog Not a contender. Prohibitively pricey. ($571 to $589 with pedals) B. Saitek x65 A contender, though only the force-sensing part of this stick is keeping me from getting it. Marginally too pricey as well, but I could keep the cost down by skipping the pedals, this year . ($304 solo, or $391 to $409 with pedals) C. Saitek x52 Pro A contender, and still a favorite (due to cost and bling. I love bling!), through all my research. Pedals not required here, but would be appreciated. ($158 currently on Amazon, so $245 to $263 with pedals) D. CH Products Fighterstick + Pro Throttle USB A contender. Even though I have major questions about this throttle, the overall quality (that I have heard, no firsthand knowledge) of this brand, and the programming software, pushes it toward the top. Very reasonable price, too, for a full set-up. ($273 with pedals) E. Logitech G940 Not a contender. That is how much I love my Tie Fighter. ($290) V. Request for the Community All that having been said, I have questions for y’all: 1. If you have a Saitek x65, have you been able to acclimate to the force-sensing? 2. Also for the x65, are there still stick centering problems? 3. For CH folks, how does the throttle feel? Loose? Stiff? Just right? 4. In general, is there anything glaring that I haven’t considered? Thank you all for taking the time to read and comment.
phd_doc Posted September 26, 2012 Author Posted September 26, 2012 VI. Addendum A. Responses On the SimHQ forums, I was asked some more questions for clarifications, and given comments on my post. Here are my responses (to Q/C by SimHQ user -Ice), and some insights into my though process: - Q/C: Which sims do you play or plan to play with this setup? A: I am not looking to play any particular sims with it, per se. However, I will tell you which “games” I own and will plan on playing. X-Wing, Tie Fighter, X-Wing vs Tie Fighter, X-Wing Alliance, Evochron Mercenary, DCS World w/ A-10C, Flight, MWO, and X3:TC/AP. That is my current stable of flight/throttle games. At some point soon I would like to add the Lock-On series, and perhaps even F4:AF to my collection. - Q/C: For instance, if you only ever play an F-16 sim, then split-throttles is not an issue, but it is a big one if you play A-10s or F-18s. Do you play modern sims or WWII/WWI sims? With modern sims, more buttons and programmability is needed, with older aircraft, a couple of buttons and a throttle should work fine. A: I play modern and space games/sims. I added the split throttle into the pros and cons because part of me would like to somewhat “future-proof” my system. I know that limits my choices, but the split throttle does not make-or-break the decision. It is more like a bell or whistle. - Q/C: As for rudder pedals, the choice is somewhat limited. I have the Saitek ProFlight rudder pedals and after 2+ years of use, they still work great. Other products are the CH pedals, the Saitek Combat pedals, and the Logitech pedals.... so far I've heard positive things about both Saitek pedals and the CH pedals. I've also heard that for modern fighters, the pedals aren't much of an issue but with older aircraft, you tend to use the rudders more. A: The prices I gave in my original post were for either the “CH Products Pro Pedals Discover Bundle” on Amazon or the Saitek Pro Flight pedals. The Saitek Combat/Cessna pedals look nice, but I have heard good things about the CH/Pro Flight pedals, and don’t know if the increase in price is worth it. If I choose the CH HOTAS, then I will obviously go with the CH pedals. Then, I can use my entire setup in older games and let the CH software emulate a single input device. If I go Saitek, then I will get the Saitek pedals. In the older games, those that will not ID a second game device, the Saitek HOTAS will have twist to roll the aircraft. That is what the stick twist does in games like Tie Fighter. With the CH setup, I would use the pedals to do that. - Q/C: TM Warthog - expensive, I'll give you that. However, as I prefer this to be a one-off purchase, I tend to go for quality and keep the costs to a reasonable level. Like buying a PC case --- do you go for the el-cheapo ones that you need to mod and the ones wherein just thinking about going in the case gives you nightmares? Or do you go for the more expensive one (within reason!) but is "just perfect" for your needs -- good ventilation, adequate space, proper cable management, etc etc.? The one wherein you look inside the case and can't help but wonder how you've ever done such an amazing job with your computer build? Anyway, I digress... with the WH, it is expensive, but it works straight away. With DCS A10C, it even syncs to the proper controls straight away (except the trim functions). So not only will you get a durable HOTAS, you get one that allows you to play straight away with minimal fuss ---- handy for those of us with jobs, families, etc. who basically have limited simming time. A: I went middle-of-the-road with my computer case. I built my system myself, and I needed to make sure I could reach everything. I also had to make sure the case had to work in the tight confines of the space in desk I was allotting it. All things considered, it was the cheapest, best option. I appreciate the utility of the WH, and if A-10C was the only game (sim, sorry) I was going to play, I would weigh the WH heavier in my decisions. - Q/C: CH gear - again, slightly more expensive than the norm, but same sentiments about reliability as the WH. Why get CH over a WH? No idea... maybe some people prefer CH, or prefer the plastic, I dunno. A: I do not feel that the CH route is too pricey. For the cost of all 3 parts, it is still cheaper than the x65. Price for the CH is just right, I think, especially knowing the (supposed) build quality of the CH. Also, the plastic of the CH isn’t what concerns me. It is the action of the throttle that holds the most questions. I have read that it is stiff. I have also read there is no friction setting due to there being no need to counteract gravity, which alludes to the throttle being loose. - Q/C: The X65F is the best in Saitek's range, but again have heard of problems with the force sensing losing calibration after some time. Plus the stick at least needs to be bolted down onto the table so that it doesn't move too much during aggressive maneuvers. A: I have heard those comments too. That is why I posted concerns and questions regarding the x65. I hope someone owns one (recently or currently) and lets us know. - Q/C: G940 - Don't diss this one... despite the problems I've heard it is the best stick when playing DCS Black Shark because of the FF function! A: I didn’t mean to diss in general, just that it won’t work for me. If the stick doesn’t twist, I have no roll control in Tie Fighter. And no throttle. Also, I have no plans on playing Black Shark or any other helicopter sim. B. Additional Information I am not considering a TM Cougar. I do not plan on building a simpit (no room), so any kind of realism is not important. I plan on mounting my new toy (I mean tool!) on top of a floor mounted skid (think http://www.rogerdodger.net/diyflightsims/floor_unit.html) I value everyone’s input on the topic. After all, I want to mine all your knowledge to make the best purchase I can!
PeterP Posted September 26, 2012 Posted September 26, 2012 E. Logitech G940 Don’t need force feedback. Also, the contraption will register as 3 different devices, so no Tie Fighter for me. Man! It's 2013 - there is meanwhile a tool for putting different controllers into one: This works also with Tie Fighter and Dos-Box. >>>Wing Commander Saga Installed it and loving it! Brings back many good old memories... Tip for people that use more than one controller (WC-Saga only accept one) and want to use their rudders in WC-Saga for yaw : Download PPJoy and install a Virtual Joystick. And than use the "Joystick Remixer" (via start-menu) to compose a controller of your choice.
IADC Posted September 27, 2012 Posted September 27, 2012 If your flying A10 There is only one controller. WartHog............
zagan Posted September 27, 2012 Posted September 27, 2012 I just bought the saitek X-65f joystick yesterday. I bought it so I could use it with Black Shark 1 but I might need to buy Black shark 2 so I have a serial number that will work the BS1 serial is saying it's broken or something so can't play it, not sure if that's due to a GFX card or the stick itself causing the need for a new serial to be needed. For me I find it a shame as I can only use it with the A-10C and I'm not really into the A-10C sim. The center of the stick is probably 0.02mm off the the proper center of the trim squares, you can trim this up if you wanted. I've not really had a proper stick before so the force stick isn't a problem and in fact would probably work better if you have a tight space. How ever seeing as you don't have Black Shark at all, and only have the A-10C then you'd be better to get the warthog stick. The X-65f was a dearer stick for me than the warthog I could have picked either and I might still get a warthog later on down the track just to use for the A10C sim but you need to remember all the switches and stuff are pretty much made for that 1 sim sure you can use it for other stuff but you'll need to program all the switches and buttons for every other program and you might not be up for that. The other problem is I don't think the warthog stick would be suited for the helo sims as you don't have the twist bit on the warthog, the x65f does have the twist for rudders you can select this to be on or off if you do have them. I think the x65f is the best for the helo sims you do have the down side of needing to profile everything but you'd need to do that with warthog as well anyway but for the a10c and the tie fighter games from memory it's just the stick and 2-3 buttons at best the warthog would get you by. Not sure about the rudder pedals I'll probably get some myself but not right now at least I'll just use the stick. The x65f I got seems fine I have it on a desk that has lino office surface on it and the stock rubber corners seem to hold stick and throttle in place fine for me, the stiffness of the throttle seems fine to me, but I do welding and have plenty of forearm strength to shift it around. so have left it at the factory stock tightness, it also doesn't shift. I don't have the metal plate on the x65f stick either and there's no bolts used either you can bolt the stick and the throttle I would suggest if your up for it you might be best to just drill the holes through the desk and just bolt the thing in rather than use bits of Velcro and stuff I haven't used those either by the way. Anyway I think I've gotten the right thing for me for the helo side but I would suggest to get the warthog for the a10c if you use that sim. The Logitech stuff could be good. The CH stuff I didn't bother with as it's probably a bit generic and probably more based towards the flight sim X band wagon, you know for use in Learjets etc.
Gate-5 Posted September 27, 2012 Posted September 27, 2012 1. If you have a Saitek x65, have you been able to acclimate to the force-sensing? 2. Also for the x65, are there still stick centering problems? No, I just ordered a Warthog because of that. In the A-10 force sensing works fine for 95% of the situations, but I'm still not able to hold a stable off-center position (which gets even worse when reaching for the release trigger). As long as I can trim its not a problem, but when diving for a bomb release I don't have as much control over pitch as I'd wish to have. It gets even worse in BS2 since there's barely a situation where the stick is centered. Its probably not problem at all in games where trimming is not necessary, since I'm playing BS2 and P-51 its kind of a no-go for me. No. When plugged in it does some kind of self-centering.
lokitexas Posted September 27, 2012 Posted September 27, 2012 I have been using the Saitek x65 for just over 1 month now. Came from using an x52, and then a Microsoft Force Feedback 2 with x52 throttle, and Saitek rudder pedals. I love the x65. I fly mostly the Black Shark....well 98% of the time. I will admit it took about a couple days to a week to get used to it. I also fly sround a little bit in the A10 as well as the Su-25. I also fly a little bit in Falcon BMS, RoF, and CLoD. Works great with all. The pros are: Metal construction. It is a solid kit. Just enough lights to look cool without being space aged. The calibration software is easy to use, and the new drivers had it calibrated nice right out of the box. The button layout (including roatary knobs) is very easy to access on the fly. The amount of buttons makes it easy to program everything you need plus extras. For instance, I have my own BS setup, made to mimic as close to the real Ka-50 as possible. Works great. I also have an A10 profile (not mine) that mimics the A10...pretty damn close to the Warthog hotas. The throttle's button bay attachment I thought was fluff. Its actually very awesome, and useful. Being able to change the force on the fly is great, and the extra 5 buttons it provides has been perfect for assigning weapon commands for the BS like Moving Ground TRGT, A/A, Auto Turn, HO A/A. One thing often overlooked...changable hat switchs. Never thought a little detail would be so awesome. Changing the hats (from say a castle hat switch to a bowel hat switch) is easy with a provided allen wrench and makes the unit a lot more comfortable to use. I fell in love with this feature. One unit. I like this because I was also looking at the G940 first, and knowing it was split into 3 devices, I can see how that would have been a pain. And the cons: Throttle is a pain to move at first. Stiff as hell. Takes a few days to break it in. Still stiffer than some like, personally I liked it after a weeks time. Saitek SST software. Easy to use yet confusing sometimes. Doesnt not always do what you want it to. For DCS, I always used in game assignments. I would hate to have to use SST software to program it for a game. Needing to use bolts, zip ties, or velcro to secure it. Since I use a little higher force sensing setting, I used the provided velcro to secure the stick, and zip ties (in place of bolts) to secure the throttle. I am using a playseat (from my old sim race days) and it isnt an issue if I ever want to bolt it down. Some might be more hesitant on a nice desk or something. All in all I was also looking at the Warthog, and G940. Was not even interested in the X65 until a fellow squad mate talked to me about it. Just like you I could not justify dropping the dough for a Warthog, and reading the issues with the G940 made the Saitek an easy choice. I would suggest pedals though, as the twist throttle on the stick would be hard to get used to, imo. i5 3570k @ 4.3 560ti GTX 2gig 8gig RAM Intel SSD Win7 64bit
Gate-5 Posted September 27, 2012 Posted September 27, 2012 I'm surprised that you guys have no such problems with using the X65 in helos. Ok.. my first tries were using the twist rudder which might be one of the problems, but even tough I have proper pedals now, I feel like it could be better. This makes me even more curious about how it will be with the Warthog. The thing with force sensing is probably that you either like it or not. I think its not that I wouldn't be able to completely adapt to it, but unless I've tried a conventional stick there's always something in my mind asking if it wouldn't be better with one of those.
lokitexas Posted September 27, 2012 Posted September 27, 2012 I'm surprised that you guys have no such problems with using the X65 in helos. Ok.. my first tries were using the twist rudder which might be one of the problems, but even tough I have proper pedals now, I feel like it could be better. This makes me even more curious about how it will be with the Warthog. The thing with force sensing is probably that you either like it or not. I think its not that I wouldn't be able to completely adapt to it, but unless I've tried a conventional stick there's always something in my mind asking if it wouldn't be better with one of those. I did have issues for the first few days. I was all over the place in the KA-50. Once I set the force(s) I was comfortable with, I found it very precise and easy. After a while I didnt even remember its a force sensing stick. It is not like the motion of your hand is different. You are still moving the stick the same way and direction. Unless you look at your stick while flying to see how far the throw is from middle, its not really different. I use the defualt force setting at "2" 99% of the time. Flying the A10 I have switched to "1" for a landing a few times. After using a convential stick, to a FF stick, to a force sensing one, I prefer the force sensing. BUT...I will switch to the FF one for RoF and CLoD, just because the effects, especially in RoF feel cool on the FF. Again, the X65 is scary because that part, but I have not been more happy with a piece of flight sim gear ever. i5 3570k @ 4.3 560ti GTX 2gig 8gig RAM Intel SSD Win7 64bit
algerad3 Posted September 27, 2012 Posted September 27, 2012 Reprinted from the SimHQ forums. I thought I would ask in another location to try to get more opinions. Thank you in advance for your time and feedback. C. Saitek x52 Pro For a long time this HOTAS has really caught my eye. The "sci-fi" look doesn't bother me. In fact, I like the look. It glows too, so kudos there. Does that MFD do anything yet with any community programming? It might! But I don't know if I want to look down at it. Still, looks classy. Actually , we have a few things working for the x52 pro for the dcs series. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=94174 I have both the X52 and two X65's. The X52 pretty good, like the lights , was upset that you have to be able to create your own program to make the mfd function or wait for someone else to do it. I think we ( Myself and Chrilith) have made it a simple affair for Dcs. Though beware, Some models of the X-52 do not display the mfd properly on a usb hub. (firmware issue, non flashable) Not really a problem just erroneous letters(characters) at times. For most situations plugging the device into the mother board usb ports (rear) clears it up. Maybe they fixed it in the newer models. The X-65 is a completely different matter. My first one did not have the centering issue and worked very well. trying to fly the shark was an issue with the x52 (settings and sensitivity, I never calibrated it in options menu). the minute I plugged in the x65, the shark was so much easier to control, It ( for me ) was more a matter of thinking about what I wanted to do and it being done. after experiencing the x65, I was better able to control the shark with the 52. Unfortunately , that one got smacked by a careless individual, Saitek rma'd the stick , but I was under the impression that it would take a while to get it back so I got the second one. ( was setting sail in 2 weeks and I fly on the boat. Did not want to do with out) of course my replacement arrived within a week and I wound up with both of them arriving at around the same time !!!!!?????? One does have the centering issue described earlier , I have not tried the new drivers yet, the other is as good as the first. It's a crapshoot for now. Just my two cents. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] CPIAS FOR Saitek: Saitek Flight instrument panels and X-52 pro mfd scripts for Dcs http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=94174
PoleCat Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 IMHO the TM WH is the best, all things considered. Second to that I would fall back on my Cougars. All of them work fine in Windows 7/Windows 8. I think you are really at the point where you have all the information needed to make an informed decision. In other words, you don't need to use your PHD to make this decision. Weigh your options and if you can, put your hands on all of them and I am sure the answer will come swiftly as to which is right for you. What ever your decision is in the end I only have one more thing to add.....Enjoy your new HOTAS and keep the blue side up! Out http://www.104thphoenix.com/
pyromaniac4002 Posted September 29, 2012 Posted September 29, 2012 (edited) I'm coming up on a year since I got my TM HOTAS Warthog, and a day hasn't gone by where I regretted making the sizable investment that I did. Of course, it's particularly amazing when you combine it with DCS: A-10C, using the highest fidelity controller with one of the highest fidelity sims in existence, but even without having each button and switch correspond with what you'll see when you look down at your in-game throttle and stick, it's an extraordinary piece of equipment for whatever you're flying. Most HOTAS systems have a pretty significant degree of similarity, it's just a matter of where they place the button/switch. It's superbly well made, it has unmatched accuracy, and there are about a hundred ways you can see a degree of thoughtfulness in design that just doesn't exist in the vast majority of competing designs. I know you've already ruled buying one of these out, but for anyone else considering it, I'll just say if you love flying sims and you have the means to buy one, do it. The decision is as simple as that. A great flight simulator is all about putting you as much in the actual seat of an aircraft as possible, and there's only so much that a development team can do through your monitor and speakers to deliver that experience. The remainder is made up in the physical experience, and short of spending a year building a pit, you can significantly close that gap between the game and reality with a good HOTAS controller. Nearly all of the flying and finding/engaging targets will be done through it, so having the TM Warthog vs. some space-junk-looking Saitek (which is still a great setup in its own right) makes a much bigger difference than you would think. And however you decide on your purchase, welcome to the brotherhood of HOTAS. :thumbup: Edited September 29, 2012 by pyromaniac4002
phd_doc Posted October 1, 2012 Author Posted October 1, 2012 Reposted from the SimHQ furums: So, I bought an x52 today. Now, before you jump all over me, let me explain. I got it for $20 at a yard sale. The price was right, and I can use it for the time being (saved about $260, at least temporarily). I plugged it in when I got home, and it seems to work just fine. I appreciate all the feedback you have given me, and I had nearly (99%) made up my mind on the HOTAS I wanted, and was just waiting for th funds to become available when I saw this deal. It has performed well so far, so I think I am in good shape, until next year that is >=) (or until it breaks) 1
maiochine Posted October 2, 2012 Posted October 2, 2012 Reposted from the SimHQ furums: I appreciate all the feedback you have given me, and I had nearly (99%) made up my mind on the HOTAS I wanted, and was just waiting for th funds to become available when I saw this deal. It has performed well so far, so I think I am in good shape, until next year that is >=) (or until it breaks) Hello there :) I am glad you find that deal and I think you took the right decision in saving your money and waiting for the right moment to spend it on the HOTAS that works best for you. I used to have X-52, as well as the members of the aerobatic team I use to fly with. The problem with X-52 that all 4 of us (aerobatic team) had was the pot of the twist for the rudder... after about 14/15 month it starts to flutter and will not be centered anymore, I cleaned it many times, it solved the problem temp. but got back again. Flying in formation (using Lock On FC2) requires precision and the twist caused me a lot of problems doing this kind of flight. The year X-52 Pro got out I quickly bought it an sold my old 52 for 60$ and I can tell you not only aesthetically it looked better than the classic 52 but also the materials used to build it were much solid. I used it until the Warthog HOTAS came out and I always dreamed of having control on two engines specially when flying aerobatics. I sold the X-52 Pro and put some money away and bought the most beautiful joystick I ever had in 23 years of flight simming !!! Thrustmaster A-10 Warthog HOTAS was really the HOTAS !!! The HALL effect is a technology that really changes the way you fly your sim airplane. I fly A-10C and BS2 and bought also the saitek combat rudder pedals. With the magnetic sensors used in the HALL effect you will forget about the wearing of your pots because there will be no one anymore ;) Flying formation in FC2 was amazing and the sensation in having in hands pure steel is AMAZING and trust me the first time you try the Warthog HOTAS you'll take off with a smile on your face :D I was tempted to buy the X-65F but the force sensing flight sticks didn't interest me because only F-16's and F-22's have them...and the feeling when you yank the flight stick all the way right/left to make a fast roll, is really amazing. So I let the X-65F alone and head the the Warthog and trust me it worth all the money...If you don't have the money for the Warthog buy a cheap one and save some until you have enough to buy the Warthog :) I was so happy with the HALL effect sensors that I bought a secondary Joystick (to use on the boat - I work offshore) that uses it and it's the T16000M from Thrustmaster. It will be delivered to me tomorrow and I will give you my feedback about it. I fly also on FSX and I managed to program the Warthog to do pretty much anything I need there so no worries about programming it. Happy landings Maio [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
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