Avoiding the HO

[Echo38]

I hate head-on firing passes. In the olden days, with simpler sim-games, I had a technique for avoiding them with a 100% success rate, provided that I had sufficient distance and energy at the beginning of the fight. Here, however, I'm having difficulty reproducing it when fighting opponents who are good at gunnery.

 

If I have a large energy advantage on my foe, I can circle above him and drop down on him when I have an opportunity, thus never exposing myself to fire. But in a standard duel situation (both begin co-E, facing each other, and both pilots have visual), I'm finding it difficult to avoid being shot from the front before the initial merge. In other, less-realistic WWII flight sim-games, such as IL-2: Forgotten Battles and Aces High II, all I had to do to prevent myself from being H.O.'d was to offset and dive a bit just before the merge, then perform a lead turn just before he opened fire.

 

If I had about 400 MPH, and put him between my 1 and 2 o' clock high, then there wasn't anything he could do to hit me, as long as I started my combat turn at the right moment, which was just as he was about to enter gun range (so perhaps a thousand yards). Here in DCS, it doesn't seem to be working so well. I don't know if I'm doing it wrong; it was about six years ago when I last flew a virtual WWII aircraft, so I'm having to re-learn almost everything all over again, but it's even more confusing for me because this is a considerably higher fidelity simulator, and so some things are just plain different.

 

Can anyone offer any advice on how to perform a duel merge without engaging in a head-on pass or exposing myself to a front-quarter shot, assuming the other guy insists on going for the H.O.? Or, if there is no way to entirely eliminate the risk of being shot during such a merge, how can I best minimize that risk, without refusing to engage unless I already have an energy advantage?

Edited September 26, 2012 by Echo38

[159th_Viper]

A.I.?

 

Offset to the left and climb slightly whilst commencing the turn. After merge drop into turn, regaining energy lost. Seems to work for me.

[Echo38]

I'm referring to human players who open fire earlier than the A.I. does. I know that the A.I. often holds fire when it could fire and hit, even on the "excellent" setting; it appears to prefer to wait for a closer shot and/or a longer firing window. So I have no difficulty avoiding the A.I.'s H.O. attempt. Of course, when the A.I. does fire, he hits, but human players often open fire from several times as far as the A.I. does, and some of them can consistently land hits at long range & high deflection.

 

I'll try to make a video of one of my evasion attempts, although this might take a while due to the relative scarcity of players and the tendency for my tracks to either be corrupted or else contain hours of irrelevant footage before the desired section. What I might do is make a video of my technique now, or at least the general idea, using the A.I. as opponent; I can then later make a video of a human player defeating my technique with a long-range deflection shot, when I get usable footage of it.

Edited September 26, 2012 by Echo38

[Tailgate]

Set up some ROE's like not firing on the first pass, or if there aren't any ROE's , then I guess adjust to do the same to your opponent. which doesn't sound like much fun. It would be more like a p*ssing contest.

[Echo38]

Set up some ROE's like not firing on the first pass, or if there aren't any ROE's , then I guess adjust to do the same to your opponent. which doesn't sound like much fun. It would be more like a p*ssing contest.

 

My question is, "Can anyone offer any advice on how to perform a duel merge without engaging in a head-on pass or exposing myself to a front-quarter shot, assuming the other guy insists on going for the H.O.?"

[VIMANAMAN]

Hi Echo,

 

My only experience is with AI which maybe be no good straight off the bat - but aren't the two goals are mutually incompatible in reality - Engaging and yet trying to be un-engagaeble?

 

I dunno mate you sound more experienced than me. But you're in the manoeuvre guns cone if you commit aren't you?

 

For what it's worth - The best success I've had with avoiding AI fire is manoeuvring in all three planes at once, such as barrel rolling, etc....

 

Just a thought.

 

Good hunting!

[GGTharos]

On the first pass? You can try flying a big barrel roll (harder to track) or just be ready for it with a jink - the jink is most effective -before- he fires, and if helps if you set him up a bit with a faint. It helps if you squirt a few rounds at him just before the jink too, though it won't make everyone flinch - just make sure that you mean it when you fire.

 

Generally speaking though, if you want to really discourage this, get better at the head-on pass yourself, show him it's a crap-shoot, and your opponent just might start trying to engage differently.

 

While I don't deal with the P-51 much, in some cases a high-aspect shot can be the only opportunity you have (pre OR post-merge), and that's often very true in an F-15 v Su-27 scenario.

 

My question is, "Can anyone offer any advice on how to perform a duel merge without engaging in a head-on pass or exposing myself to a front-quarter shot, assuming the other guy insists on going for the H.O.?"

Edited September 26, 2012 by GGTharos

[Mike Busutil]

Avoiding the HO? I try to pretend i'm not home when she knocks at my door :D

[Echo38]

The first minute of this video shows what I'm trying to do:

 

It begins as a standard duel situation; co-E, facing each other. I offset and dive. It's an approximation of my old H.O. avoidance technique. I don't know how well I'm replicating it; I haven't done it in about six years, until I started trying again in DCS in the last month or two. It may put me at something of an energy disadvantage, but, at this point, I'm willing to take a slight hit in initial E in order to be as certain as possible that the front shot doesn't hit me.

 

I've found that relying on sudden jinks or barrel rolls is leaving too much to luck; the other guy can still hit you when you're doing that, if he's really good and/or lucky. So are there any suggestions for refining my technique which I showed in the video?

[Echo38]

aren't the two goals are mutually incompatible in reality - Engaging and yet trying to be un-engagaeble?

 

I'm not trying to be un-engagable, but only un-H.O.-able. I don't want to engage in a H.O., ever, because this is all about gunnery skill (and luck, as you're relying on the possibility that the other guy can't shoot worth beans, which you have no control over and no way of verifying until it's too late), rather than about the flying skill. I don't like gambling, and I don't like tossing flying skill out the window in favor of gunnery, either.

 

But you're in the manoeuvre guns cone if you commit aren't you?

 

That's a good question. In IL-2 and AH2, I found that I could stay out of his cone while he was in range by doing my technique. It relied on a number of things to do this: my speed was such that any change in pitch that I made changed his required lead point dramatically, and, due to this, (I thought) I was leaving his "lead cone" altogether, the moment I began pulling my lead turn. My 100% success rate with this maneuver* over a period of about 3 years of competitive multiplayer makes me think that I wasn't simply always facing bad gunners, but, again, that was a different sim-game and the physics may not have accurately reflected reality.

 

The other main thing was, I believe, that I was forcing him to make a prediction shot, because my lead turn, while initially remaining above his nose, was intended to force him to pull hard in order to adjust his lead point. This, if I remember/understand correctly, usually forced him to keep me below his nose, where he couldn't see me. (Of course, our having "Wonder Woman view" forced available in DCS isn't helping my anti-H.O. any, but I'm hoping that my opponents are serious enough about simming to refrain from using this exploit.)

 

* That is, a success rate of 100% at dodging the H.O. under the conditions I listed (e.g. co-E, spotting each other well before within gun range). Not 100% success rate in the subsequent dogfight. ; )

Edited September 27, 2012 by Echo38

[GGTharos]

It may put me at something of an energy disadvantage, but, at this point, I'm willing to take a slight hit in initial E in order to be as certain as possible that the front shot doesn't hit me.

 

Don't be a one-trick pony, do a high roll instead some of the time :)

 

In any case, offset is the key, both vertical and horizontal, or either. The rest is down to timing and bandit skill. If you're giving something up by avoiding the head-on shot, then the bandit should be able to get you if he's skilled. That's the gamble.

 

I've found that relying on sudden jinks or barrel rolls is leaving too much to luck; the other guy can still hit you when you're doing that, if he's really good and/or lucky. So are there any suggestions for refining my technique which I showed in the video?

It's just down to timing and if your bandit knows what he's doing you can still end up in a head-on, HAGS, scissors or other unpleasant situation, or at best, neutral circle.

 

Jinks plus intimidation should work fairly well if you do them right. The 'luck' part is well entrenched in any technique you use - the luck of the draw with respect to bandit skill.

Edited September 27, 2012 by GGTharos

[Echo38]

The 'luck' part is well entrenched in any technique you use - the luck of the draw with respect to bandit skill.

 

That's true. But I much prefer the gamble of "is he a better flier than me" than the gamble of "is he a better gunner than me," for the two reasons I mentioned; I'm all about the flying, rather than the gunnery, so a fight which exercises only or primarily gunnery (e.g. a head-on pass) is disappointing regardless of who is the victor, but, more relevantly, the first gamble only gets me hit if he's the better flier, where the second gamble always gets me hit, regardless of who's the better gunner (unless, of course, he's a hopelessly poor shot, but it's very rare to meet someone who can't even make hits in a H.O.). A tactic which accepts the idea of oneself being hit by bullets is not a good tactic in my book.

 

Thanks for the tips. I think you're right about the immediate pre-shot jink; I had good success with it back in the day, I guess I just need to re-learn the "when" and "how much." Every day I seem to remember some tidbit of something I once knew and since forgot from disuse, so, there's hope yet.

 

Hey, what's a HAGS? (And don't tell me it's what HOs turn into, Mike!)

Edited September 27, 2012 by Echo38

[GGTharos]

That's true. But I much prefer the gamble of "is he a better flier than me" than the gamble of "is he a better gunner than me," for the two reasons I mentioned; I'm all about the flying, rather than the gunnery, so a fight which exercises only or primarily gunnery (e.g. a head-on pass) is disappointing regardless of who is the victor, but, more relevantly, the first gamble only gets me hit if he's the better flier, where the second gamble always gets me hit, regardless of who's the better gunner (unless, of course, he's a hopelessly poor shot, but it's very rare to meet someone who can't even make hits in a H.O.). A tactic which accepts the idea of oneself being hit by bullets is not a good tactic in my book.

 

No one is accepting anything; it's just an unavoidable gamble sometimes. That's why I'm saying, if you run into someone like this, and you don't want to give him turning room (it happens!), you're buying a head-on pass. So fire a few rounds from a respectable distance, and more often than not he'll be paying attention to that and miss you on the pass ( ... don't forget to jink. Jinks are pre-emptive, not a response to muzzle flashes).

It's up to you to choose a technique based on opponent and of course your desired goals.

 

Having said this, if you're flying and you want to avoid the head-on shooting, ask your opponent to not do it. I find this to be the most effective thing, and if he does it anyway, punish him with superior BFM.

 

Thanks for the tips. I think you're right about the immediate pre-shot jink; I had good success with it back in the day, I guess I just need to re-learn the "when" and "how much." Every day I seem to remember some tidbit of something I once knew and since forgot from disuse, so, there's hope yet.

Yep, it's like getting back on the bike. Jink before the shot, not after - spoil his aim. As a bonus, he might be so frustrated that he won't follow through with the rest of his plan for the amount of time that it takes his mind to catch up with the fact that he should be doing something else.

 

Hey, what's a HAGS? (And don't tell me it's what HOs turn into, Mike!)

High-aspect guns and separation. Basically imagine putting a bandit on your 3-9, then once he gets closer, turning hard to make him over-shoot.

If the bandit tracks just a bit and fires, and then blows through at high speed and separates (instead of typically trying to turn with you and buying a scissors here), he just performed a HAGS. HAGS is probably about the same or a little lower Pk than a head-on pass. A good gunner may still hit you, as long as he knows how to pull lead as he aproaches - basically you're trading a head on snapshot for a HAGS.

 

You are right of course, if someone doesn't know how to fly their crate they'll overshoot behind you without a chance at the HAGS snapshot.

 

Problem is, as you probably know, there's really not a single techique out there that will always work for what you are trying to accomplish. It all depends on your bandit.

 

In FC, with flanker v eagle duels, the flankers tend to be victorious because they turn better. But as soon as some guy in an eagle drops in and starts using that superior vertical capability, they're called names :D (Mind you, it's not like you won't find flanker guys who can't cope with this - but the point is that most people are one-trick ponies when it comes to competitive dogfighting). I this situation though, the eagle pilot is very often stuck with a high-aspect snapshot ... you can pretty much forget tracking kills a lot of the time.

 

Right, I think I've gone on for a bit too long, pardon the ramble :P

Edited September 27, 2012 by GGTharos

[VIMANAMAN]

Hi Echo,

 

Edit - sorry should have quoted - this is reply to post #10 from Echo.

 

Yeah I get what you're saying there, and it sounds like a good plan, putting yourself under his nose when the EA has to execute a high G turn - that'll work - it sounds difficult to replicate, and I'd be concerned about giving the EA an unchallenged shot if it's not perfectly executed - but it's dynamite on paper and sounds like you have a lot of success with it - nice going.

 

With the AI I've found that if I don't meet him HO then I'm immediately at a disadvantage in the subsequent turning fight and have to battle to rebalance things, (if I can at all) but maybe that's me - I agree HO's are bad for your health, if you aren't either careful and / or lucky, (both types:)

 

I find (with AI) in the first pass, so long as I roll or otherwise make my flight path variable / very difficult to predict, the AI only has a guns solution about a quarter of the time, if that, and only extremely rarely does it / he get a hit on me (or even close to be honest). But you're right it's always possible for it to go very bad with a HO.

 

I'm gonna try the 'faint, shoot, jink' thing that Tharos suggested. I don't exactly follow all the moves required to execute what you're doing, I think you said you haven't aced it again yet, when you do I'd be interested to understand it better.

 

looked at the vid, nice kill mate - we need more vids like this - when I aint flyin I wanna watch others flyin :)

[Echo38]

Right, I think I've gone on for a bit too long, pardon the ramble

 

Not at all! This discussion is the sort of thing that helps.

 

With the AI I've found that if I don't meet him HO then I'm immediately at a disadvantage in the subsequent turning fight and have to battle to rebalance things, (if I can at all)

 

I think you're right. I have the same problem when fighting the A.I. I can't tell if it's happening with humans as well, because some human pilots are too dynamic for me to tell whether I'm losing because my merge was inefficient, or simply losing because my subsequent maneuvers aren't good enough (e.g. me flying an inefficient turn and the other fellow flying an efficient turn, in the most basic case).

 

Here's my theory. It isn't based on any hard data, but merely a feeling resulting largely from fuzzy memories of six years ago, so take it with the huge chunk of salt that it deserves. Here goes:

 

In IL-2: Forgotten Battles and Aces High II, the modelling of flight physics was sub-par; even disregarding other evidence, this is demonstrated by the way that highly-skilled dogfighters in those games generally flew around with full flaps during the majority of the duel, with no adverse affect--even in sustained turns and spiral climbs. Indeed, at least in the versions I played, he who failed to drop flaps as soon as possible invariably lost the duel, unless he had some great advantage in another area (e.g. a light fuel load as opposed to heavy, or a better airplane).

 

It is, then, my suspicion that those games also incorrectly portrayed the relationship between speed gained and altitude lost, while diving (and possibly the inverse while combat turning)--just as they appear to have incorrectly portrayed the relationship between drag and lift with flaps down. So, according to my theory, more accurate modelling is why having full flaps down during sustained turns is a mistake in DCS: P-51D, instead of a useful trick as it was in the other two sim-games I mentioned. More to the point, however, it could also explain why my anti-H.O. maneuver is less successful here and leaves me with a greater energy deficit just after the merge. I'm hoping that I'm wrong, and that I'm simply messing it up to my recently renewed noobery.

 

I find (with AI) in the first pass, so long as I roll or otherwise make my flight path variable / very difficult to predict, the AI only has a guns solution about a quarter of the time, if that, and only extremely rarely does it / he get a hit on me (or even close to be honest).

 

Remember that the A.I. very often holds fire when a skilled human pilot would shoot and hit. The A.I. is a deadly shot when he does shoot--at least on Excellent level--but I frequently see him hold his fire during moments where I wince because I know from long experience (and even recent--the latest was today) that a decent human pilot would have hit me.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Echo38

[VIMANAMAN]

Remember that the A.I. very often holds fire when a skilled human pilot would shoot and hit. The A.I. is a deadly shot when he does shoot--at least on Excellent level--but I frequently see him hold his fire during moments where I wince because I know from long experience (and even recent--the latest was today) that a decent human pilot would have hit me.

 

Yeah there are goods things about practising only with the AI i.e. it's consistently good therefore you push yourself and have to be efficient, but many bad things as well i.e. always similar range of defensive moves and not too many surprises - I must get my behind onto the MP servers and gain some wider experience. Will see you there at some point Dude.

 

Cheers