The AH-64 Apache Thread

[Nightmare515]

This is definitely my favourite thread of choice on this forum...

 

I don't want to be yet another person interrogating actual pilots on here but it is hard to resist the chance to speak to actual Apache pilots.

I always felt intimidated in my youth going to airshows and I don't ever actually recall seeing the pilots of aircraft being on standby for the public to speak to and never knew if it was ok to do so.

 

I have read every page in this thread and just wanted to say that it is very easy for me (and maybe others) to forget that there is a real person behind the controls of an Apache as from an external viewpoint it is easy to fall into the trap of focusing on the beast of a machine as it whizzes by making that pulsing sound.

 

I had the pleasure here in south Birmingham, UK on the 11th of 2 AH-64D's (likely UK AH-1s I guess with the radar dome atop) flying low overhead going somewhere possibly for the events of that day (I assume). The sound was unique compared to civilian copters.

 

And of course a few questions if I may, firstly wondered if I could clarify something...

 

Is the other poster who mentioned the Apache Nightmare flew also a pilot/ex-pilot and if yes would they be willing to give any insight into their experiences? (if there is already a thread on here i would be interested)

 

And to Nightmare, are you aware of decals on military aircraft in modern times - I am wondering how they happen, things like is it an approved thing like tradition in the military, who puts them on the aircraft, are they always permitted?

 

Also, are you not slightly concerned that exposure to home sims will have a negative impact on your real world operation of aircraft eg if you were to use an Apache commercial sim, then get into the real thing - will that not just introduce confusion regarding controls etc?

 

No one likes war, in an ideal world peace would prevail.

I completely am against it but it will never stop me from saying and meaning the following...

 

To all who do what you do,

 

Thank you for your service.

 

 

That's a bit strange about the airshow. When I was growing up we had airshows all the time and the pilots were all over the place standing by their static display aircraft answering questions and letting people walk up and look in the cockpit and whatnot. The newer aircraft like the F/A-22's were always roped off so nobody could get close but the rest were free game. For the most part all of the pilots I spoke to were really friendly and informative. Towards the end of the day they would tend to get a bit irritable which is understandable seeing how the airshow was usually on a weekend and they had been sitting out there all day talking to people and they probably wanted to go home. But overall really nice folks.

 

Now as far as your questions

 

The decals are usually individually unit based. Depending on the Commander some units are allowed to paint the "cool" stuff on the aircraft like the shark teeth and other things like that. Some units don't let you do that it just depends. Usually the crew chiefs paint the stuff on there. In reality the birds are their aircraft not ours. We just fly them, they do everything else so when it comes to what type of decals they want to paint on there it's left up to them. That's how it works in the US Army Im not sure how the other branches work. All I know is that we don't have cool paint schemes like the foreign military's have. We get decals thats about as far as it goes, no full camo makeover or anything.

 

I've toyed around with Apache commercial sims before and it does sort of screw me up but it's actually the opposite of what you are thinking. All of the controls and switches and avionics are muscle memory at this point so when I tried the sim I was trying to press buttons to do certain things that didn't work the same way as they do in real life. Commercial sims can get close to the real thing but much of the aircraft systems are classified so they can't include that in the sim so the developers just guess what some things do or leave out that function. Flying around in the sim is fine but when using the weapons it becomes a bit tricky. In the actual aircraft the gunner has what are called TEDAC handles with a bunch of switches that he uses to operate the weapons and sights and anything else needed to engage targets. It's a bit difficult to relearn how to do that by using a standard keyboard when you are so used to having handles to grab on to.

 

Plus in real life the HDU over the pilots right eye plays a huge role and its hard to simulate that on a computer screen.

 

I will say that I probably wouldn't be a very good co pilot in a sim for anyone lol. I don't understand the avionics in the sims and I haven't spent that much time trying to figure it out so I wouldn't be very helpful although it would seem like it should be the opposite lol. My buddy has the game ARMA and he has an Apache mod for it. I hopped in the gunners seat and we went off on a mission and I wasn't very good...He kept laughing at me "What the heck man shouldn't you be really good at this?" lol.

 

I actually have the most fun with the more arcade type games. I enjoyed playing the game Apache Air Assault for the PS3. I enjoyed flying around with like 1000 missiles and stuff and shooting up everything haha.

 

Feel free to post any questions you like I don't mind. Like I said Im snowed into my house and have been since Monday so I don't have much to do lol. I'll be busier once we go back to work of course but I try to pop in from time to time.

 

I appreciate your kind words. Thank You.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Nightmare515

[AlphaOneSix]

What years did the single pilot rules apply and what made them change (if you can say).

 

It only lasted a few months during 1995. I'm not sure exactly why they allowed it, and I'm not sure why they decided against it after only a couple of months. I actually don't know if it was Army-wide or only happened in the 101st.

 

Also regarding the M134 I really feel bad for you now as I quickly googled to find that they can fire 6000 rounds per minute so I guess after....

 

in fact, i have just reread your sentence - are you saying you unloaded that gun with the trigger? :doh:

 

We're using the M134D from Dillon Aero, they now only fire 3000 rounds per minute. ("only", ha!) And yes, I unloaded it by firing it. That's the preferred method!

[wellen1981]

That's a bit strange about the airshow.

 

Sorry this was in the UK back in about '94 or '96 and while you could climb into a BAE Hawk trainer jet and sit in the cockpit (of course I did!) as no one was standing by it. The airshow was the RIAT at Farnborough if I recall correctly, they did have SR-71 Blackbird, F-117 and F-111 Stealth fighter and a Stealth Bomber. Those 3 were well and truly cordoned off with barriers and 2 service men stood in front of each with arms folded.

Looking back now I have to laugh realising how lucky I was to see those 3 up close and can appreciate why I wasn't able to get anywhere near to the actual air frames.

 

 

Now as far as your questions

 

The decals

 

Such insight, thanks. Would you even want to be seen in the Dutch display Apache livery though? (For the record I like it, even if it does look a bit Fast & Furious Film paint job). A trivial question but context would help me appreciate more, the materials used to paint the aircraft with custom art - is that paint that is always on site anyway or do they have to go out of their way to get it and do it in their own time etc?

 

I've toyed around with Apache commercial sims before and it does sort of screw me up but it's actually the opposite of what you are thinking. All of the controls and switches and avionics are muscle memory

 

Being a guitarist I know what you mean about muscle memory.

 

As for the classified elements, it is an interesting aspect as my assumption is that the only elements that would be classified are the weapons systems and their procedures and controls. What I wonder is how someone such as yourself keeps right by this rule eg when going through training are you advised what is classified and is it a lot to keep track of mentally or is it more of a general 'any knowledge about procedures that can be used to harm is classified' and if it is the latter, is this how commercial flight sims get away with it as the only knowledge gained from over-the-counter sims would be the flying of the aspect?

 

I ask this in the knowledge that A-10C DCS dlc is supposed to be as accurate as permitted and I recall your post about a friend who had kittens when he saw your Lockon A-10A representation and he couldn't believe it was allowed.

I realise this subject is delicate and I don't wish to dwell on it too much given the risks but mainly find it interesting to look at from the commercial flight-sim point-of-view angle and how they 'get away with it' rather than causing you to post something that you shouldn't!

 

An interesting thing to note is that I believe the game Medal Of Honor Warfighter had specific weapons in it used by special forces that was deemed classified but I fail to see how just the names and a 3D render of said weapons is an issue and how those weapons could be deemed classified - unless it was just due to them being new and possible using new tech. But even so, this never filters down into games to the point were it is usable info surely? It was a member of a specific unit that was helping the devs and he disclosed the weapons used that were only specific to the unit - they weren't standard issue if I recall correctly.

 

Plus in real life the HDU over the pilots right eye plays a huge role and its hard to simulate that on a computer screen.

 

Very much appreciate the insight into your comments about headaches and brightness settings during your early training using the HDU, that is a real insight. Guess that makes me a bit of a nerd.

 

My buddy has the game ARMA and he has an Apache mod for it. I hopped in the gunners seat and we went off on a mission and I wasn't very good...He kept laughing at me "What the heck man shouldn't you be really good at this?" lol.

 

I actually have the most fun with the more arcade type games. I enjoyed playing the game Apache Air Assault for the PS3. I enjoyed flying around with like 1000 missiles and stuff and shooting up everything haha.

 

I have ArmA and ArmA 2 but have yet to get ArmA 3.

There is an 'introduce yourself' sticky thread in the 'chit chat' section which I posted in the other day when I registered on here.

It just so happens that I have obsessively been finishing PS3 Apache Air Assault on hard mode. My PSN id is the same as on here, and if you are snowed in with any free time and have your PS3 still - all I'm saying is I only have the co-op missions to do still... nudge nudge, wink wink ;o)

Would be interesting to see how the Hind noe valley mission goes.

 

Feel free to post any questions you like I don't mind. Like I said Im snowed into my house and have been since Monday so I don't have much to do lol. I'll be busier once we go back to work of course but I try to pop in from time to time.

 

I appreciate your kind words. Thank You.

 

The only final question I have really is how does someone go from being in a tank to making the move to an Apache pilot - my assumption about the military has always been that once you are in at any role there is no room for totally changing your role.

 

On a personal level how did you arrive at the decision to focus on going for the Apache role, are you very accomplished and were you offered the chance on that basis or did you just get to apply for the role (my assumption there is that many people would be going for the Apache role so the selection process even for the training opportunity would be very lucky to be accepted against all the other applicants as I should imagine the training slots are very few compared to number of applicants)

 

I'm sorry I'm being so nosey, be reassured I'm quickly running out of questions now!

 

Also yes, you really should write that book. I would read that for sure.

 

The navy seal training book you mentioned in a post previously is fascinating. Now I know that 2 bone breaks are permitted as part of the training, but must be minor eg a rib and a finger hehe.

 

Thanks again for the willingness to share your insight.

 

It only lasted a few months during 1995. I'm not sure exactly why they allowed it, and I'm not sure why they decided against it after only a couple of months. I actually don't know if it was Army-wide or only happened in the 101st.

 

I will have to do some searching to try and find out, thanks for narrowing down the year it helps.

 

We're using the M134D from Dillon Aero, they now only fire 3000 rounds per minute. ("only", ha!) And yes, I unloaded it by firing it. That's the preferred method!

 

Lol, when I first read your post for some daft reason I thought you were saying that you spent time in the sun loading the rounds and in my ignorance it sounded like a tedious task eg you were just prepping the weapon for future use by someone else, so I felt bad for you.

But now knowing that you were the one doing the firing I realise you had the better day.

 

As against conflict as I am the irony is that I have always been interested in the parts that make up the picture whether it be the aircraft and vehicles used (the technological accomplishment is impressive always), or even the ground footage that has been high quality and numerous and cleared for viewing.

Without annoying anyone from anywhere on here, the difference between how the UK forces operate and how the US forces operate is a stark contrast, especially the 'troops in contact' footage from those on the ground that I have seen.

 

This forum does have a clear message hoping that people steer clear of politics and I think I am staying within this but I was aware of Marcus Lutrell through the film and made a point of actually doing enough research into finding out what exactly happened compared to what the film told and the difference is staggering...

Any other subject matter and a film would play it up, in war films they can only play it down and that film is no exception.

Edited November 20, 2014 by wellen1981

[Nightmare515]

Such insight, thanks. Would you even want to be seen in the Dutch display Apache livery though? (For the record I like it, even if it does look a bit Fast & Furious Film paint job). A trivial question but context would help me appreciate more, the materials used to paint the aircraft with custom art - is that paint that is always on site anyway or do they have to go out of their way to get it and do it in their own time etc?

 

Ya know I really don't know what sort of paint they use to be honest. All I know is that I walked downstairs in the hanger one day and saw the crew chiefs painting shark teeth on the helo's. I'll ask them what type of paint they use I think it's just regular paint. They have paint all over the place in the hangers but if not its not too big of a deal for someone to run to Wal Mart or something and grab some. Last time I saw them do it they did it while at work. I'm still relatively new though so I don't know how often they do it.

 

 

 

As for the classified elements, it is an interesting aspect as my assumption is that the only elements that would be classified are the weapons systems and their procedures and controls. What I wonder is how someone such as yourself keeps right by this rule eg when going through training are you advised what is classified and is it a lot to keep track of mentally or is it more of a general 'any knowledge about procedures that can be used to harm is classified' and if it is the latter, is this how commercial flight sims get away with it as the only knowledge gained from over-the-counter sims would be the flying of the aspect?

 

Yeah the weapons are classified and some of the sights are. The Fire Control Radar is classified as well. There are also loads of other things in the aircrafts avionics package that are classified that are simply omitted from the sims. We are briefed on which systems are classified and which are not but we also just use common sense to know what we can talk about and what we shoudln't.

 

I ask this in the knowledge that A-10C DCS dlc is supposed to be as accurate as permitted and I recall your post about a friend who had kittens when he saw your Lockon A-10A representation and he couldn't believe it was allowed.

I realise this subject is delicate and I don't wish to dwell on it too much given the risks but mainly find it interesting to look at from the commercial flight-sim point-of-view angle and how they 'get away with it' rather than causing you to post something that you shouldn't!

 

Yeah he was more or less just surprised at how well they got the avionics down with what they were allowed to do. Most sims just sort of put half effort into avionics because unless you actually fly the aircraft in real life then you won't know the difference anyway. Sort of like how I said before when I press a button in a sim it rarely goes to the same MPD page as it does in the real aircraft. I'm assuming that in DCS A-10 a lot of the avionics actually functioned the way they do in the real thing which impressed/shocked him.

 

 

Very much appreciate the insight into your comments about headaches and brightness settings during your early training using the HDU, that is a real insight. Guess that makes me a bit of a nerd.

 

lol yeah the HDU is what makes the Apache famous but it's a real PITA sometimes. I know guys that have been flying for years who still can't get that thing centered and focused properly. Very rarely is the display as clear and perfect looking as it is in the video games.

 

 

I have ArmA and ArmA 2 but have yet to get ArmA 3.

There is an 'introduce yourself' sticky thread in the 'chit chat' section which I posted in the other day when I registered on here.

It just so happens that I have obsessively been finishing PS3 Apache Air Assault on hard mode. My PSN id is the same as on here, and if you are snowed in with any free time and have your PS3 still - all I'm saying is I only have the co-op missions to do still... nudge nudge, wink wink ;o)

Would be interesting to see how the Hind noe valley mission goes.

 

Unfortunately my PS3 is in storage somewhere I haven't played it in a long time. I've moved on to computer games now.

 

 

 

The only final question I have really is how does someone go from being in a tank to making the move to an Apache pilot - my assumption about the military has always been that once you are in at any role there is no room for totally changing your role.

 

On a personal level how did you arrive at the decision to focus on going for the Apache role, are you very accomplished and were you offered the chance on that basis or did you just get to apply for the role (my assumption there is that many people would be going for the Apache role so the selection process even for the training opportunity would be very lucky to be accepted against all the other applicants as I should imagine the training slots are very few compared to number of applicants)

 

I'm sorry I'm being so nosey, be reassured I'm quickly running out of questions now!

 

Also yes, you really should write that book. I would read that for sure.

 

The navy seal training book you mentioned in a post previously is fascinating. Now I know that 2 bone breaks are permitted as part of the training, but must be minor eg a rib and a finger hehe.

 

Thanks again for the willingness to share your insight.

 

Anyone in the US Army can apply to become a Warrant Officer and apply for flight school. We are the only branch that has Warrant Officers who can fly. I always wanted to be a pilot but it's very difficult to get into Warrant Officer Flight Training straight from the civilian world. They tend to pick people out of the actual Army. Some civilians do get selected though.

 

I wanted to be in the military so I enlisted in the one thing that I thought was the second coolest job besides pilot, tanks. After years of doing that and deployments and whatnot I finally put together my packet to Warrant Officer Flight Training and sent it off and they selected me to go to the school. Getting accepted is tough because like you said there are way more applicants than there are slots. I just made my packet look the best I could and they took me.

 

To be honest the Apache is "cooler" to the outside world than it is to those in flight school. Most people actually DON'T want to fly it. The Blackhawks and Chinooks are the ones that most people want. The way it works is that you go through the initial helicopter training program where they teach you how to fly a small Bell 206 (news chopper) and an OH-58A/C (green news chopper). Once that is complete you get to put your name on a wishlist for which aircraft you would like to fly. Depending on how well you did in the months of learning how to fly the news chopper depends on how far up the list your name gets placed. Then the Army puts out a list of what types of aircraft it has available for selection at that time. As expected the people at the top of the list usually get what they want because they get to pick first while the farther down the list you are the better chance you have of getting whatever's left. It's not uncommon to see some broken hearts on selection day because the guys at the bottom got stuck with an aircraft they didn't want. Luckily for me I was near the top and I got exactly what I always wanted, plus very few people wanted them anyway so I would have gotten one even if I was dead last.

 

Yeah the Navy SEALs are the ones who motivated me back when I was in flight school. I read all of the books about SEAL training and watch all the shows on tv and the documentaries. I figured that those young kids literally go through the toughest military training in the free world. If they can do that then Im pretty sure I can suck it up and study for a little longer.

 

I know full well how it feels to have a dream and go for it at all costs and I fully understand what drives those young men to go through that Navy SEAL school. But I do thank my lucky stars every day that my dream in life wasn't to be a Navy SEAL. I absolutely admire those young men but screw that lol.

[Yurgon]

3 times I have been trying to go out and shoot gunnery and 3 times we get cancelled due to snow storms blowing in from the north!

 

Huh, I have a question there. :)

 

With the Apache's all-weather capabilities, how come these flights got canceled? Is it too dangerous to fly in that weather, or does it simply not provide the type of training that was planned?

[Flagrum]

Huh, I have a question there. :)

 

With the Apache's all-weather capabilities, how come these flights got canceled? Is it too dangerous to fly in that weather, or does it simply not provide the type of training that was planned?

Haven't you seen the news lately? The ammounts of snow over there is immense. People can't get to work, not because the streets are slippery, not because the driveway is covered in half a meter of snow, no because they can't get out of the door of their house! Heh ...

 

[Yurgon]

Haven't you seen the news lately? The ammounts of snow over there is immense. People can't get to work, not because the streets are slippery, not because the driveway is covered in half a meter of snow, no because they can't get out of the door of their house! Heh ...

 

Yeah, that sounds like a lot. I don't know how much snow these areas used to get in the past decades, though. When there's not much else going on, media keeps being surprisingly surprised by the fact that there's snow in the winter. :D

 

In any case, I was referring to posts about a week old, apparently before people got so snowed in that they couldn't even get to work.

[Nightmare515]

Huh, I have a question there. :)

 

With the Apache's all-weather capabilities, how come these flights got canceled? Is it too dangerous to fly in that weather, or does it simply not provide the type of training that was planned?

In theory yes the Apache is an all weather attack helo. In practicality eh....not really.

 

With all of the advanced technology on the bird we are still helicopters. When we have blizzards blowing 50mph+ gusts and snow measured in feet then we tend to stand down. The fixed wing fellows can get away with worse weather conditions, we can't deal with it as well.

 

In a real world situation we lower our limitations. But for training there is no reason to risk flying in a snow storm just to go out and shoot plastic targets.

 

Plus like Flagrum said the snow is stacked up here. Even though we can technically dig the birds out of the snow and fly we have to get people to work and thats no easy task when there's a few feet of snow stacked outside of your front door and the roads are covered in ice.

[Yurgon]

In theory yes the Apache is an all weather attack helo. In practicality eh....not really.

 

Thx for the info. :thumbup:

 

I keep my fingers crossed for you to get some good (flying) weather soon. :pilotfly:

[Nightmare515]

Well I was finally able to get a break in the weather and do some flying yesterday. Only got to fly a couple hours because we had freezing rain and started running into icing conditions. Got familiar with taking off and landing in white out snow conditions which was pretty nice. But when the sensors start freezing over it's time to put the bird on the ground.

[Ultra]

I read a nice article today in Combat Aircraft monthly about the new rollout of the AH-64E Guardian. It sounds like the main improvements are the significantly increased performance of the engines and the new Instrument Meteorological Conditions capabilities. Pretty sweet. :gun_smilie:

[wellen1981]

Ya know I really don't know what sort of paint they use to be honest.

 

Don't worry about find out the sort of paint used, I just wondered about decals as the painting of aircraft is almost the total opposite of the strict sense that military seems from the outside. Also practicalities seem to be ignored, I mean the main paint of the aircraft offers a degree of masking yet some of the custom paint possibly compromises this.

 

 

 

 

To be honest the Apache is "cooler" to the outside world than it is to those in flight school. Most people actually DON'T want to fly it. The Blackhawks and Chinooks are the ones that most people want.

 

See, I don't understand this and maybe you could shed some light on it from your perspective and possibly others you trained with...

The only reason I can think of for not wanting to fly Apache over the others is the constant engagements/being an aggressor (up close and personal), and the fact that the systems eg operational are tougher and (possibly?) more involving.

Any idea the actual reasons why people put it lower down the list of preference?

 

Sorry for posting this here but I was doing some research into female fighter pilots (since you mentioned that nasty Apache crash was a female pilot) and I was amazed at just how many female pilots there are - I found some interesting footage of an F-15E Eagle pilot (front seat) on youtube and looking at other vid thumbnails on the right of the page, made me realise just how common it is (especially in the US).

The reason I mention all this is because I have just read a few articles online regarding "killer chick" and her mission in April '03 that she was lucky to survive (and extremely talented to make it back to base and land safely).

 

A-10 I know, but seriously shows just how hardy the Warthog is and also shows just how good some pilots are.

 

Got me thinking though... call signs/nicknames who picks them?

Others pick yours or you pick your own?

When are they used?

At what point in your service do you get one/pick one?

[AlphaOneSix]

Any idea the actual reasons why people put it lower down the list of preference?

 

Flight time. Historically, AH-64 pilots get less flight time than any other airframe. I just spoke with a UH-60 pilot in October. He graduated flight school in March, so he's only been flying for about 7 months, and he's already racked up 300 hours.

[Flagrum]

Flight time. Historically, AH-64 pilots get less flight time than any other airframe. I just spoke with a UH-60 pilot in October. He graduated flight school in March, so he's only been flying for about 7 months, and he's already racked up 300 hours.

And why is that so? Because utility helos can be, well, utilized better and have always something to haul from or to somewhere when attack choppers don't have to attack something on a day-to-day basis (and training flights are probably just ... expensive)?

[wellen1981]

No love for the mosquito

 

Flight time. Historically, AH-64 pilots get less flight time than any other airframe. I just spoke with a UH-60 pilot in October. He graduated flight school in March, so he's only been flying for about 7 months, and he's already racked up 300 hours.

 

Could there be any other reason(s)?

Given the role of the Apache the lower flight time is not only to be expected but also a reflection on how exact its duties are in my mind.

 

Am I missing something here?

Aren't the Chinook and black hawk roles more logistical, even if they are more often...

 

Also piloting a large chinook and getting shot at has got to be less appealing than the nimble Apache from a pilot perspective.

 

If after all is said and done, most pilots agree it is just flight time that sorts the desired order of roles I am genuinely surprised.

 

And why is that so? Because utility helos can be, well, utilized better and have always something to haul from or to somewhere when attack choppers don't have to attack something on a day-to-day basis (and training flights are probably just ... expensive)?

 

I guess it just comes down to mindset eg some may not see the Apache role down-time as a bad thing if they are good at keeping occupied.

I wouldn't want to offend anyone by saying this (just my preference I guess) but the amount of flying would not factor in comparing moving things around and being able to pilot Apaches.

 

In fact, for planes would it be inverted (would plane pilots want the transport roles over the combat jets) eg transport plane pilots and fighter jet pilots...

 

Also Flagrum, I've been meaning to ask - your sig has red X through the one emblem, wondered why.

Edited November 28, 2014 by wellen1981
more words

[AlphaOneSix]

Well this is probably going to offend somebody, but please trust that being offensive is not my intent. A lot of people (most?) who join the U.S. Army to fly helicopters do so because they want to fly helicopters, not because they want to blow things up. I wouldn't cite being in combat as a detractor, since every utility pilot I've ever met was more than willing to fly into a combat situation.

 

Cavalry is a big draw, and most of those units fly OH-58Ds, so that's pretty popular. Most flying is, of course, training back at home station, so being able to take all of your stuff to the field in your helicopter, and then live in your helicopter during down time, is also a very nice perk.

 

I never quite finished my flight packet before I got out of the Army, and that's my bad, but after working on Apaches for 6 years, I had no intention of attempting to fly them if I ever got to flight school.

[Nightmare515]

Don't worry about find out the sort of paint used, I just wondered about decals as the painting of aircraft is almost the total opposite of the strict sense that military seems from the outside. Also practicalities seem to be ignored, I mean the main paint of the aircraft offers a degree of masking yet some of the custom paint possibly compromises this.

 

Yeah I suppose it could. But you also have to think about where we are operating right now and the way we are operating now. In places like Afghanistan and Iraq a big green helicopter isn't camouflage anyway so painting shark teeth on it isn't really going to matter much. I would assume that if we moved to an environment with more vegetation then we might not want to alter the paint scheme as often.

 

 

See, I don't understand this and maybe you could shed some light on it from your perspective and possibly others you trained with...

The only reason I can think of for not wanting to fly Apache over the others is the constant engagements/being an aggressor (up close and personal), and the fact that the systems eg operational are tougher and (possibly?) more involving.

Any idea the actual reasons why people put it lower down the list of preference?

 

Sorry for posting this here but I was doing some research into female fighter pilots (since you mentioned that nasty Apache crash was a female pilot) and I was amazed at just how many female pilots there are - I found some interesting footage of an F-15E Eagle pilot (front seat) on youtube and looking at other vid thumbnails on the right of the page, made me realise just how common it is (especially in the US).

The reason I mention all this is because I have just read a few articles online regarding "killer chick" and her mission in April '03 that she was lucky to survive (and extremely talented to make it back to base and land safely).

 

A-10 I know, but seriously shows just how hardy the Warthog is and also shows just how good some pilots are.

 

Got me thinking though... call signs/nicknames who picks them?

Others pick yours or you pick your own?

When are they used?

At what point in your service do you get one/pick one?

 

Well I've found that there are 2 main reasons people don't want to fly the Apache. We tend to get the least amount of hours and they don't want to kill anybody. Like AlphaOneSix said many people join the Army because they want to fly helicopters. It's the same with other jobs in the Army. We aren't exactly hurting for recruits for Infantry or Tanks or anything but many people want to serve their country without actually engaging in combat so roles such as Supply and Medical are very popular.

 

Some people are honestly just afraid of combat roles. There is nothing at all wrong with that. It takes a "special" kind of person to be able to get shot at for a living. I'm not trying to sound tough or anything because we are all scared when bullets start flying. Anyone who says they aren't terrified is flat out lying. But some people can handle that fear and keep moving, some people can't. Nothing wrong with that at all.

 

I heard a few people mention that the wanted the Blackhawk because of that movie Blackhawk Down. They think it's cool.

 

I am by no means disrespecting, downplaying, or degrading the service of any member of our military, we need them all and I have the utmost respect for anyone who wears the uniform. However, in my own philosophy I felt that if I am going to be in the Army then I'm going to fight. As the old saying goes there are two types of people in the Army, the ones who go out and destroy the enemy and those who support the people who do. To me I am in the military, I didn't join the military to do a job I can do as a civilian. If Im going to be in the Army then I going to fight. Thats why I enlisted in Tanks at first and am in Apaches now.

 

As far as the callsigns we don't follow the same tradition as the Air Force and Navy pilots. We don't have callsigns like Maverick or Iceman or anything. Those aren't actually their real callsigns for the flight they are just nicknames they give each other personally. Actual callsigns are given to a flight and are usually something basic like "Falcon 1" for F-16s or "Eagle 1" for F-15s. AC-130s usually get something like "Hammer" or "Thunder". F/A-18s are usually "Sting" or "Hornet" and the A-10s usually got "Hog". B-1 bombers got "Bone" (B-One) get it? ;) Pretty much the same stuff you hear in the video games.

 

Some people have nicknames in my company and they are based on the way anyone gets a nickname, we can't pronounce their real name lol. But for the most part we just call each other by our first names.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Nightmare515

[Nightmare515]

Could there be any other reason(s)?

Given the role of the Apache the lower flight time is not only to be expected but also a reflection on how exact its duties are in my mind.

 

Am I missing something here?

Aren't the Chinook and black hawk roles more logistical, even if they are more often...

 

Also piloting a large chinook and getting shot at has got to be less appealing than the nimble Apache from a pilot perspective.

 

If after all is said and done, most pilots agree it is just flight time that sorts the desired order of roles I am genuinely surprised.

 

That's basically it. Blackhawks and Chinooks do everything. Air Assaults, mail drop, MEDEVAC, logistics, taking the General to lunch, etc. Apaches do one thing only.

 

So when they aren't deployed the 60's and 47s still have a mission to do. They can get a call saying they need to pick up a platoon of troops for a training mission, or the Artillery boys need you to pick up their artillery gun and move it somewhere. Or the General needs a ride to a meeting, etc. Apaches just do combat so unless there is a war we don't fly as much.

 

That's why the tell you to "Pick the mission, not the aircraft" when selecting an airframe in flight school. If you want to fly the most then pick Blackhawks. If you want to fly less but shoot things then pick Apaches or Kiowas before they got nixed.

 

 

 

I guess it just comes down to mindset eg some may not see the Apache role down-time as a bad thing if they are good at keeping occupied.

I wouldn't want to offend anyone by saying this (just my preference I guess) but the amount of flying would not factor in comparing moving things around and being able to pilot Apaches.

 

In fact, for planes would it be inverted (would plane pilots want the transport roles over the combat jets) eg transport plane pilots and fighter jet pilots...

 

It's just personal preference. I for one agree with you I had absolutely no desire to fly anything but the Apache.

 

Many people said that they didn't care what they flew as long as they got to fly. Not this guy. I'm pretty sure I chewed my fingers down to the bone in the days leading up to selection day. I wouldn't have been happy in anything else. I would have done my job, but I wouldn't have been happy lol.

Edited November 28, 2014 by Nightmare515

[rcjonessnp175]

I acquired a hgu 56 gentex helicopter helmet and looking to convert the u174 military plug to receive a stereo source . You guys point me in a direction to something you guys may have used ie hooking your iPod or even computer up to the com systems in your helmet? Got a couple crew chief buddies who just went through the train up for the E model and sounds like an even more amazing bird ! Thanks for any help you can provide

[AlphaOneSix]

One of our pilots just soldered the headphone wires into the back of the helmet. He cut the wires just short of the earpieces and plugged the headphone jack into an iPod nano or something. I actually modded the aircraft to hook my iPod directly into the ICS, but that got me in trouble. Spoilsports. Anyway I can't remember exactly where he soldered in the wires...I think it was at the back left where the CEPs plug in, assuming yours has the CEP plug.

[rcjonessnp175]

Here the baby, might of got the nomenclature wrong as I'm currently getting jeep serviced and can't read it. Man don't they know flying and such is way better when you got epic jams blasting in your comm set lol!

[wellen1981]

I could quote you both like before but just hitting new post is easier, sorry.

 

Nightmare and Alpha...

 

Glad I didn't offend and yeah it is a delicate subject I guess when you speak about it on personal levels, 'to each their own' really does factor into it in reality.

 

Since the Apache is a 2 crew machine and since the front gunner can also pilot from the front, can the rear seat pilot also use all weapons eg hellfire, hydra etc or can the rear pilot only slave the gun to the helmet and use that weapon only from the rear seat?

 

I have said already I'm no fan of war and hearing what those that take lives say, it is always the same thing - No one ever says they enjoy taking a life but they always say they are glad that they can offer a lifeline to troops on the ground etc in times of need eg A10 pilots and Apache crews.

 

In fact, I can only think of 1 interview where someone has actually acknowledged they are killing and that is Harry (As he is from the UK maybe I should understand slightly, but that individual is very much a unique person in every sense - and the exception to every rule).

 

 

Finally, I did try to tread carefully with my previous post given the sensitive subject matter but I should have been a bit clearer (as I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong impression) - to me, the airframe appeals, the role appeals, the on-board systems appeal.

 

I don't desire to take lives but I could accept it is potentially a big part of the role (as the pilot by the way, does the crew alternate roles or is the copilot gunner always the copilot gunner for a tour?) and I am sure not every engagement would be to support troops in contact in the Apache either - that would be naive of me.

Also I try to be able to understand if, on an individual level anyone sees it differently pulling the trigger/dropping bombs in a jet/chopper (I don't even know where to factor in UAVs) from afar compared to if they were pulling the trigger on foot up close and personal.

 

Not sure how much more I can/should say on this subject but the psychology involved is something that is often not covered understandably. If I think about it personally, it does present a moral dilemma.

I guess it all comes down to each individual how they manage to justify it to themselves enough to be able to perform their duties and carry on afterwards. It can't be easy.

 

I should also add that given UK/US cultural similarities, society over here doesn't have guns in civilian life and this is a fact that must make a huge difference on an individual level for people who serve.

My honest take on the US from here is that you guys are able to handle these implications better than we are over here as you grow up exposed to the responsibility and the ability to take a life easily with the pull of a trigger. Over here society in general does not give people the opportunity to appreciate this until they are actually on tour serving.

 

I have family and close friends in the forces (some front line, some not) but that means very little on a personal level - I mean, the fact they serve in no way can influence my own take on things.

I am still not sure how to answer the question of the moral dilemma to myself - maybe there is no answer.

 

I know I have rambled (for sure too much), this is an aspect no one likes to dwell on or discuss and I understand why.

This element deserves more consideration/recognition than it gets for the effects it has on some after-the-fact.

 

Again, sorry for going there.

 

Being a civilian I probably have no right to even bring up the things I have but I wanted to be honest as I have never had the opportunity to discuss things with people who serve(d) who were not only willing to talk about it, but also as honest about things as you both have been.

Edited November 29, 2014 by wellen1981

[rcjonessnp175]

I'll answer quickly as a ground guy. Killing the enemy is killing the enemy ,in our line of work if you allow certain sensitivities into your mindset then you become combat in effective. I can tell you myself and those that I have served with on Oda's have a way different mindset than most in the populace. I too have wondered what sort of difference it would be from me killing the enemy at 800 meters like I have to the close stuff up,and personal. Well to be honest not much of a difference and I think it's the same in some respects for the aircrews. You just can't allow that sensitive mindset to interfere with the mission.

But I can tell you nightmares and constant thoughts of what happened down range do plague allot of us when your back home. But it's part of the job and profession if we didn't enjoy it or feel the great sense of service and honor to our respective countries we wouldn't continue use to serve.

My hats are always off to the Apache and a10 guys they have been very big valuable assets to our missions on the ground. Have saved myself and countless others.

I have served 17 years and am seriously considering putting in a flight packet as the impression I got in combat and life long dream of being an Apache pilot is very strong!

 

Rich

[Flagrum]

Also Flagrum, I've been meaning to ask - your sig has red X through the one emblem, wondered why.

My sig shows just the aircraft I like to fly in DCS - current and future/announced. Sadly the Apache was cancelled by VEAO (http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2193455&postcount=648). I did not remove the Apache completely from my sig because I ... well, somehow I still have some hope. ;o)

So, if you perhaps wondered if that X was some sort of "political statement" - no, not at all! (perhaps I should rethink my sig?).

[wellen1981]

I'll answer quickly as a ground guy. Killing the enemy is killing the enemy ,in our line of work if you allow certain sensitivities into your mindset then you become combat in effective. I can tell you myself and those that I have served with on Oda's have a way different mindset than most in the populace. I too have wondered what sort of difference it would be from me killing the enemy at 800 meters like I have to the close stuff up,and personal. Well to be honest not much of a difference and I think it's the same in some respects for the aircrews. You just can't allow that sensitive mindset to interfere with the mission.

But I can tell you nightmares and constant thoughts of what happened down range do plague allot of us when your back home. But it's part of the job and profession if we didn't enjoy it or feel the great sense of service and honor to our respective countries we wouldn't continue use to serve.

My hats are always off to the Apache and a10 guys they have been very big valuable assets to our missions on the ground. Have saved myself and countless others.

I have served 17 years and am seriously considering putting in a flight packet as the impression I got in combat and life long dream of being an Apache pilot is very strong!

 

Rich

 

 

I live near to the main UK hospital that treats all people who serve (was actually visiting the ward a few months back due to a family member) and earlier this week 3 chinooks flew overhead on their way to the hosp (made my heart sink although I'm really hoping it was something like readiness training...).

 

Here in the UK the BBC have been running a series called Our War and the final episode covering leaving Afghanistan aired this week.

I had seen the first 2 seasons of it and it mainly uses helmet cam footage and interviews from actual infantry members and it also covered the honest aftermath of certain incidents during operations.

 

One incident in particular has me asking in this thread again...

 

There was an incident whereby a UK Apache was called in to support troops taking the fight to a compound and the troops marked the building with smoke and their position also with smoke. Tragically the Apache crew fired upon the troops injuring 9 and leaving 1 lad paralysed.

 

I will understand if this doesn't get responded to but I wondered if I could ask how you guys feel about friendly-fire or blue on blue incidents as the 3 of you (rcjones, nightmare515 and alphaonesix) each come from very different perspectives of serving.

 

rcjones - I think I am right in understanding you are US infantry?

 

nightmare - Having been in tanks and then moving to apache your thoughts from the tank perspective regarding the risk of airborne attack friendly incidents would be insightful and through your previous role I would guess going forward will only help to serve you in future to safeguard against those incidents given the fact you know what it is like to be on the ground at risk from airborne friendly-fire (if you are in the apache co-pilot gunner seat during deployment).

 

alphaonesix - I think from your posts your role is primarily non-combat, have I got that right?

 

It is saddening to know that UK troops do not have the beacon US troops have to identify themselves as friendly when targetted by other units eg aircraft.

How do US service people feel about the added pressure put on you in identifying friendly troops knowing the risk is there that you could be aiming down on UK friendlies unknowingly due to them not being equally equipped like yourselves?

 

 

My sig shows just the aircraft I like to fly in DCS - current and future/announced. Sadly the Apache was cancelled by VEAO (http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2193455&postcount=648). I did not remove the Apache completely from my sig because I ... well, somehow I still have some hope. ;o)

So, if you perhaps wondered if that X was some sort of "political statement" - no, not at all! (perhaps I should rethink my sig?).

 

Don't worry I didn't read anything into it political or otherwise - I just thought it must relate to a cancelled DLC and thought I would ask to clarify ta.