RIP Flanker.. all hail the new king.

[USAFMTL]

What do Mig-29's and tennis shoes have in common?

 

Grass stains. :D

[SmokeyTheLung]

:lol:Epic

[Kuky]

Totally agree with Soviet... every bloody release we get yet again there is the F-15 in image... boooooooo

 

I would not be surprised that ED intentionally takes more care of US stuff as it must be they get paid by US customers (by this I don't mean "the little people", I mean military / "big guys")

 

Even the change log when I read it... all I could see is lines and lines of F-15 this and A-10A that.... then 1-2 lines with something for Russian aircraft... even a blind could see it's so one sided.

 

Testers/moderators need to give it up and accept the truth... it is what it is and there's no denying it. Things not always have to be black on white (as in when moderators ask "where was this said" etc) some things are hinted and some is very small print we are not meant to see.

 

No need to moderate people that speak up the truth (without being rude and disrespectfull) as this only makes ED image (and their staff/moderators/testers/etc) in more bad light. It is far more respectfull to accept what many are saying.

 

I am also very sceptical about this "passion" sometimes testers/moderators speak of ED has, where is this passion for all of their product?

 

I think too Beczl is a hero... I wish him all the best in anything he makes and I will suport him as much as I can (I'll buy all of his products).

 

Now, back to the Eagle... as I said, the dark side is overrated... and the all mighty Eagle has lived in his fame as he never had to face the real (tough) enemy.

 

LONG LIVE THE FLANKER !!!

[lunaticfringe]

Now, back to the Eagle... as I said, the dark side is overrated... and the all mighty Eagle has lived in his fame as he never had to face the real (tough) enemy.

 

LONG LIVE THE FLANKER !!!

 

You mean a tough enemy such as Arab states who, in the 90's were generating just as many, if not more, flight hours than the average Soviet/Russian federation pilot?

 

Do you mean those guys that got splashed over Kosovo?

 

Or do you mean like those tough Ethiopians and Eritreans who had trouble hitting the broad side of a barn door? Because surely, in the battle betwixt Soviet made gear there would be a definitive qualitative measure.

 

I keep hearing this garbage about Soviet and former Soviet supermen, and yet, as late as 1984, they were still bickering in their professional journals over the relative merits of single ship flights versus lead-wing pairings (the single most basic aspect of tactical consideration), in a system derived from GCI.

 

So what you're telling me is that a system that was late to the pilot initiative game (in the 80s) was capable of jumpstarting their aviation maturity during the 90's with less than 100 hours per year (and are still at that level as a mean average), to be capable of competing against pilots generating three times as many hours, with hardware no less than 1.5 generations ahead in relative performance?

 

Out.

Of.

Your.

Mind.

 

Funniest part is that the USAF knows *exactly* what they're up against with the Flanker: they own them; they're out running around the Nellis ranges. And updated foreign Flankers get invited to play at Flag based on USAF terms of engagement- that is, the data/AWACS/EW-centric method of battle, which is currently not modeled in FC.

 

And they get *squashed*.

 

(Funny- Sukhois have datalink, but Eagles, even with all this supposed pro-US positioning, don't.)

 

Tell me, where's the Soviet F-15 Aggressors? Where's the Chinese F-15s?

 

Oh yes- ain't got them. Don't know.

 

Unfortunately, these are the facts. Other facts are that former Soviet client states have felt confident enough in the systems and training provided to them *by* Mikoyan and Sukhoi to go forward and take the battle in opposition of Eagle-armed nations. And yet, they keep getting sent home in bags, on the back of trailers.

 

If Soviet and former-Soviet pilots were taking on the role of instructors for the client states, and their students are getting bent over that badly, do you *really* think they're going to go 1:1 USAF/IAF guys in the hot war? Hardly.

 

When all you've got are Youtubes of Pugachev doing Cobras to make a point, your complaints of bias are nonexistent.

[GGTharos]

Testers/moderators need to give it up and accept the truth... it is what it is and there's no denying it. Things not always have to be black on white (as in when moderators ask "where was this said" etc) some things are hinted and some is very small print we are not meant to see.

 

No need to moderate people that speak up the truth (without being rude and disrespectfull) as this only makes ED image (and their staff/moderators/testers/etc) in more bad light. It is far more respectfull to accept what many are saying.

 

ED is totally selling out to flanker drivers. They cut down TWS in the eagle to 60 AZ.

 

Now, back to the Eagle... as I said, the dark side is overrated... and the all mighty Eagle has lived in his fame as he never had to face the real (tough) enemy.

 

Hey, the flanker killed MiGs too ... so I guess it hasn't faced any real tough opponents either.

[Kuky]

You mean a tough enemy such as Arab states who, in the 90's were generating just as many, if not more, flight hours than the average Soviet/Russian federation pilot?

 

Do you mean those guys that got splashed over Kosovo?

 

Or do you mean like those tough Ethiopians and Eritreans who had trouble hitting the broad side of a barn door? Because surely, in the battle betwixt Soviet made gear there would be a definitive qualitative measure.

 

I keep hearing this garbage about Soviet and former Soviet supermen, and yet, as late as 1984, they were still bickering in their professional journals over the relative merits of single ship flights versus lead-wing pairings (the single most basic aspect of tactical consideration), in a system derived from GCI.

 

So what you're telling me is that a system that was late to the pilot initiative game (in the 80s) was capable of jumpstarting their aviation maturity during the 90's with less than 100 hours per year (and are still at that level as a mean average), to be capable of competing against pilots generating three times as many hours, with hardware no less than 1.5 generations ahead in relative performance?

 

Out.

Of.

Your.

Mind.

 

Funniest part is that the USAF knows *exactly* what they're up against with the Flanker: they own them; they're out running around the Nellis ranges. And updated foreign Flankers get invited to play at Flag based on USAF terms of engagement- that is, the data/AWACS/EW-centric method of battle, which is currently not modeled in FC.

 

And they get *squashed*.

 

(Funny- Sukhois have datalink, but Eagles, even with all this supposed pro-US positioning, don't.)

 

Tell me, where's the Soviet F-15 Aggressors? Where's the Chinese F-15s?

 

Oh yes- ain't got them. Don't know.

 

Unfortunately, these are the facts. Other facts are that former Soviet client states have felt confident enough in the systems and training provided to them *by* Mikoyan and Sukhoi to go forward and take the battle in opposition of Eagle-armed nations. And yet, they keep getting sent home in bags, on the back of trailers.

 

If Soviet and former-Soviet pilots were taking on the role of instructors for the client states, and their students are getting bent over that badly, do you *really* think they're going to go 1:1 USAF/IAF guys in the hot war? Hardly.

 

When all you've got are Youtubes of Pugachev doing Cobras to make a point, your complaints of bias are nonexistent.

 

Don't make me laugh... the US has always s*** their pants when Russians are mentioned... US goes into wars that they think they can win... actually few times they got it wrong... I don't want to go into politics now but Russia in war is a real Bear and the US will never want to fight it and they all know damn well why :book:

[Azraeil]

ED is totally selling out to flanker drivers. They cut down TWS in the eagle to 60 AZ.

 

Honestly, despite this I've found TWS far more reliable in the latest iteration, or maybe I have just gotten better at using the radar. In any case I use STT for detection and then switch over to TWS when I have got a better idea of the enemies flight parameters.

[Kuky]

ED is totally selling out to flanker drivers. They cut down TWS in the eagle to 60 AZ.

 

Why did they do that? I thougth ED wants to make things MORE REALISTIC and improved... if this is oposite to this why did they do that? :huh:

[lunaticfringe]

Don't make me laugh... the US has always s*** their pants when Russians are mentioned...

 

Yes. That's why the Soviet Union spent itself into oblivion to compete with the US. Because it was naturally such a "bear".

 

That's why the Soviet Union had PVO drivers so talented, that when one of them was pressed to "defend the homeland", he failed to *arm his weapons* during his first attack pass, and was left on radio wondering why nothing happened.

 

You might have heard of it- KAL 007.

 

You might have also read the words of General Colonel Moskvitelev taking a dump on their training methods and lack of pilot initiative; the ties that held them to GCI.

 

Pilots who failed to properly stow up the gear post-takeoff after not being told to do so by the same GCI.

 

Keep reading them Yefim Gordon books, Kuky; it's the only way you keep laughing. :megalol:

[Kuky]

reading your post made me laugh again :D

[MadTommy]

I'd just like to add the moment i hailed the Eagle the new king... it was was not because I considered it to be the best at anything...or even the best looking.. it was very simple.. I sat up in my seat and looked over the nose. At that moment, for me the Flanker was dead.

 

Now you can all carry on the usual argument about what and who is best at what. Ta.

[Moa]

One thing about Russian designed aircraft is they are still dependent on high-performance chips only obtained from the US.

 

Here's an article for you guys to chew on:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/05/world/europe/russian-agents-smuggled-us-microchips-fbi-says.html

 

The supposed Soviet "wonderweapons" (aircraft and missiles) look great on paper, but in fact their real-world performance is less than the specs would suggest. That is not to say they are paperweights. They are still dangerous, but less than many people think. Anyway, besides the relatively limited funds in the Russian economy for building new stuff an even bigger problem is that critical parts for the Russian arms industry cannot be obtained except in very limited smuggled quantities. Actually, this had been a problem for a long time. During the Cuban Missile Crisis the Soviets had many ICBMs that were missing critical guidance parts that had to be smuggled from the US; the Soviets were far weaker than they appeared by counting missile bodies (something the Soviet leadership were well aware of, which is one reason they knew they had to back down).

 

Based only on aircraft maneuvering performance the Flanker has a good chance of beating an Eagle. Once you add in realistic battle factors (USAF pilots that routinely train to beat 2:1 or greater odds against them), better C3I used by the US, more reliable aircraft and missiles, better maintenance, vastly better Western ECM/CPU power and software+electronics, and tactics designed to try keep the fight BVR then you'd have to bet on the Eagles.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Moa

[lunaticfringe]

reading your post made me laugh again :D

 

Then you must have found 80's and 90's issues of PVO Herald to be an absolute knee-jerk. Especially May '84 installment, when Moskvitelev publicly tossed the entire Soviet PVO training structure out on its arse.

 

Yet, the required increase of hours necessary to instill a new tactical doctrine of pilot initiative never came; quite the contrary- no sooner did the RAM-series (as we called them) hit the scene in real numbers, and the Soviets enjoyed having their flight hours halved- from an already paltry 100/year.

 

Keep laughing, Kuky. :lol:

[Kuky]

I have to laugh as you focus on one bad timeline in Russian history (the fall of CCCP and Varshow pact) but you are greatly ignorant and fail to understand how Russian fight and what they have done in past in war time... but what to expect from someone who clearly thinks his country is unbeatable and the best... I will stop laughing when I live the day when the US can rise up to the Russian bear the way you think they have already done.

 

You think your way, I will think my way

 

Anyway, I do not intend to mock the US or their powerful armed forced (which we all know they are) but it is very foolish to diss the Russians ;)

Edited November 12, 2012 by Kuky

[Cedaway]

Look like we're back in 2004... LockOn is definitly back :thumbsup:

[Raised_Dead85]

Its okay MadTommy, the more eagles fly in the sky the more they become on the endangered species list > : D

[USAFMTL]

I have to laugh as you focus on one bad timeline in Russian history (the fall of CCCP and Varshow pact) but you are greatly ignorant and fail to understand how Russian fight and what they have done in past in war time... but what

to expect from someone who clearly thinks his country is unbeatable and the best... I will stop laughing when I live the day when the US can rise up to the Russian bear the way you think they have already done.

 

You think your way, I will think my way

 

Anyway, I do not intend to mock the US or their powerful armed forced (which we all know they are) but it is very foolish to diss the Russians ;)

 

Dude you are hilarious! :-P

[Teknetinium]

Then you must have found 80's and 90's issues of PVO Herald to be an absolute knee-jerk. Especially May '84 installment, when Moskvitelev publicly tossed the entire Soviet PVO training structure out on its arse.

 

Yet, the required increase of hours necessary to instill a new tactical doctrine of pilot initiative never came; quite the contrary- no sooner did the RAM-series (as we called them) hit the scene in real numbers, and the Soviets enjoyed having their flight hours halved- from an already paltry 100/year.

 

Keep laughing, Kuky. :lol:

 

When you have lunches from S-300/400, TORs, MIG-31 whit Su-27 backed up by Mig-29, you can try to fly over Russia:) And if you hit a taget you might see Russian submarines outside NY :)

Edited November 12, 2012 by Teknetinium

[streakeagle]

Did someone say submarines?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells

[GGTharos]

First, I was still teasing you; I was pointing out that I can very easily find things to whine about as well if I really wanted.

 

Second, yes, it is realistic if we're talking about an F-15C from 1988. Their TWS back then was indeed limited to 60 degrees AZ as per the -34.

 

Third, really, even with that limitation, given how target trackfiles really should work, it should still be making you complain - but we don't get trackfiles ... so once more, ED is selling out to the flanker crowd, so I claim ;)

 

Why did they do that? I thougth ED wants to make things MORE REALISTIC and improved... if this is oposite to this why did they do that? :huh:

[wilky510]

I have to laugh as you focus on one bad timeline in Russian history (the fall of CCCP and Varshow pact) but you are greatly ignorant and fail to understand how Russian fight and what they have done in past in war time... but what to expect from someone who clearly thinks his country is unbeatable and the best... I will stop laughing when I live the day when the US can rise up to the Russian bear the way you think they have already done.

 

You think your way, I will think my way

 

Anyway, I do not intend to mock the US or their powerful armed forced (which we all know they are) but it is very foolish to diss the Russians ;)

Never once did i see him say the US was unbeatable and the best. Typical American stereotyping.

 

Also, if Russia went on the offensive against US, do you think they would some how fair better than US doing the same to Russia? Couldn't see a better outcome for either.

 

This thread is one step closer to being locked, starting to get out of hand, and to be fair... I'm not helping. Gonna stop posting.

[Frostie]

.

The guy said the Eagle hasn't faced any real serious threat like a modern Flanker and you go off on some mind screwed crusade to prove US pwn all.

Well done you win. :doh:

 

The fact is the F-15C has never faced anything close to a Flanker, everyone knows that the US war machine is the most advanced in the world and the F-15C is a small portion of what made/makes the USAF tick, now move on.

[JABO2009]

The guy said the Eagle hasn't faced any real serious threat like a modern Flanker and you go off on some mind screwed crusade to prove US pwn all.

Well done you win. :doh:

 

The fact is the F-15C has never faced anything close to a Flanker, everyone knows that the US war machine is the most advanced in the world and the F-15C is a small portion of what made/makes the USAF tick, now move on.

 

wrong, US F15-Cs and -Es faced airborne Iraqi Mig 29s during Gulf war, which I would assume to be close to a Flanker.

 

needless to say the Migs were immediately shot down due to lack of own Radar capabilites / and almost fully destroyed iraqi (ship launched tomahawks missiles did big part of the job) radar infrastructure.

 

the Migs were more or less flying "blind", so yes, you wont be able to make any russian/US A/C comparison in close range dogfight behaviour here, but It at least shows the US approach on dealing with enemy fighters quite clearly. -> turn their lights off and go in there with super advanced "search lights" and kill the mole.

 

 

learn more:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_engagements_of_the_Gulf_War

Edited November 12, 2012 by JABO2009

[UVAF Bond]

Did someone say submarines?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ivy_Bells

 

ohh yeah!

 

 

And reality COULD be always worth then advertisement.

for example- Russian attack submarine sailed in Gulf of Mexico undetected for weeks, U.S. officials say

 

http://theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/2012/08/14/russian-attack-submarine-sailed-in-gulf-of-mexico-undetected-for-weeks-u-s-officials-say/

[GGTharos]

US/British/French submarines have been sailing around USSR and Chinese coasts undetected for decades. So what? This is nothing short of just being a part of cold war.

 

Perhaps the way you SHOULD say it is 'wow, they managed to get a sub out there finally' ;)