DRM, Activation Servers Offline? - Considering Purchase

[jcookeusa]

Hi All,

 

(I know this is quite long, but I've got a lot on my mind and would appreciate any thoughtful responses.)

 

I've been a flight sim junkie my whole life (was playing Flight Simulator when it was made by SubLOGIC :) ). Anyway, I only recently discovered these DCS simulations and I'd really like to get started with them. I'd also very much like to financially support the company keeping high fidelity simulation alive. However... :), I have a strong distaste for DRM, so I'm hoping some of you can make the DCS DRM/Activation process clearer for me.

 

As a matter of course, I won't buy any games with DRM (other than Steam and I'm pretty reluctant to do even that these days). My main game buying site is now GOG. I do understand, though, that a company such as Eagle Dynamics, developing a niche product may feel some form of DRM is their only way of preventing lost sales and staying in business. I don't really know if this is the case with ED.

 

However, I REALLY don't want to purchase a game and then, sometime down the road, be unable to play it because of DRM/activation problems. Perhaps in ten years, some external activation server goes offline, ED is out of business, and I've used up my activations.

 

From looking around on this site, I have gathered that we start with some 8 or 9 initial activations and if we use all of these, we then can use one per month ad infinitum (an automatically replenishing activation system). I'm assuming that these activations are handled by contacting an external server. If that's the case, then aren't we risking our purchase price and possibly only "renting" the game?

 

Can anyone shed some light on this for me, please? I really do want to buy at least BlackShark 2 and the A10 modules, but I will probably continue to wait and mull it over if it's true that our use of this game depends on external servers "allowing" us to do so.

 

Again, I'm not saying I'll run through 8 or 9 activations quickly and then be annoyed with the one per month replenishment -- I'm worried that the entire activation system depends on external servers that I have no trust in. (I can still play my copy of Falcon 4.0 when I feel like it, for example. :) ).

 

Thanks so much to anyone that can help clarify the drm/activation situation for me!

 

-Justin

[SmokeyTheLung]

Sorry in advance, as I'm not able to answer your questions with complete confidence...

 

I think ED has the DRM in place for the reasons you mention (to hold on to potential sales lost to piracy).

 

I too have a slight problem with "leasing" software, but I will say (with brevity :)) that all offerings from ED thus far have been worth the price of admission (and some). I've been enjoying DCS A10c for the last 2+ years and it's been worth many more times the price of admission.

 

My best advice would be to give DCS World a try (free) and see what ED has to offer, you won't be disappointed :)

[lokitexas]

Sorry in advance, as I'm not able to answer your questions with complete confidence...

 

I think ED has the DRM in place for the reasons you mention (to hold on to potential sales lost to piracy).

 

I too have a slight problem with "leasing" software, but I will say (with brevity :)) that all offerings from ED thus far have been worth the price of admission (and some). I've been enjoying DCS A10c for the last 2+ years and it's been worth many more times the price of admission.

 

My best advice would be to give DCS World a try (free) and see what ED has to offer, you won't be disappointed :)

 

I agree. I have had no issues with ED's "drm" system at all. If you are looking for a combat flight simulator, nothing can beat DCS.

[sobek]

However, I REALLY don't want to purchase a game and then, sometime down the road, be unable to play it because of DRM/activation problems. Perhaps in ten years, some external activation server goes offline, ED is out of business, and I've used up my activations.

 

EDs position is that they will make a DRM free version available in the event that the company should go out of business.

[Witchking]

Lets hope that doesn't happen as ED is on a roll wth DCS World. They surely have the beginnings of an ecosystem here that has great potential and with a good PC, damn...its insanely fun. Never had issues with DRM...switched/upgraded PCs quite a few times. I seem to be loosing my DCS Warthog activations for some reason and not getting them back, but I am sure ED can confirm my proof of purchase and provide activations if necessary.

[EtherealN]

Witchking, to be precise: it is the final activation that is automatically returned. So if you go to 0 activations, you'll be back at 1 after 30 days. However, going from 7 to 6, for example, will not be automatically "refunded".

 

That said, if there is a problem it is always possible to get assistance from customer support.

[Witchking]

thanks Ethereal...I just opened a ticket> For the first few times I reinstalled wndows on my old pc (Win8 testing, win 7 transitions back and forth) I forgot deactivating and thought I would get them back in a month. Now I am left with 3.

[jcookeusa]

Thanks to all for your replies. I did try DCS World and fell in love with it! :) I couldn't help myself and ended up buying the A-10 module. I enjoyed that so much, I just picked up the P-51 module last night.

 

Yes, it does sound like this DRM is a bit risky -- I'm glad to hear that ED would release a DRM-free patch if they go out of business, but seriously, it may be hard for them to do that, depending on the circumstances.

 

However, after trying out the free DCS World and the A-10 and P-51 modules, I'll just stick my DRM worries in the back of my mind and enjoy the sim! :) (Eagle Dynamics: I'm still anti-DRM, but for this kind of niche product, I'll deal with it. I would not put up with it from a larger developer/publisher.)

 

Thanks again,

Justin

[EtherealN]

As a side note; even if ED were to go out of business and not be able to patch the system away, the automatic "+1" would still be in effect since that doesn't operate on ED's servers.

[jcookeusa]

Oh, very good then. That's exactly what I was interested in in the first post. I was wondering if that minimum extra activation per month depended on any outside servers or was all in the locally installed application. If that's strictly local, then the worst case, after exhausting the initial set of activations, is one per month.

 

Thanks,

Justin

[lokitexas]

Thanks to all for your replies. I did try DCS World and fell in love with it! :) I couldn't help myself and ended up buying the A-10 module. I enjoyed that so much, I just picked up the P-51 module last night.

 

Yes, it does sound like this DRM is a bit risky -- I'm glad to hear that ED would release a DRM-free patch if they go out of business, but seriously, it may be hard for them to do that, depending on the circumstances.

 

However, after trying out the free DCS World and the A-10 and P-51 modules, I'll just stick my DRM worries in the back of my mind and enjoy the sim! :) (Eagle Dynamics: I'm still anti-DRM, but for this kind of niche product, I'll deal with it. I would not put up with it from a larger developer/publisher.)

 

Thanks again,

Justin

 

No Black Shark 2? WTH is wrong with you? ;)

[Yurgon]

However, after trying out the free DCS World and the A-10 and P-51 modules, I'll just stick my DRM worries in the back of my mind and enjoy the sim! :) (Eagle Dynamics: I'm still anti-DRM, but for this kind of niche product, I'll deal with it. I would not put up with it from a larger developer/publisher.)

 

Right there with you. Ubisoft reminded me just how much DRM and bad customer support take the joy out of gaming when I ran into some problems with AC: Revelations (and right before that, no Steam at all because they had some major issues with their infrastructure). For now, Ubisoft, EA and a few other companies are missing out on quite some cash I'd gladly throw at them if they let me play AC3 and BF3 without Uplay and Origin respectively.

 

Back to topic, I've never had any DRM issues with any ED title (started with BS1 on DVD and then everything except FC3 purchased right at digitalcombatsimulator.com) and I hope it stays that way. But if they sold all their titles DRM free at gog.com, I'd probably buy all of them again, to a) support the company and b) be on the safe side if there were DRM issues to come at some point in the future.

 

Judging from what I've read on these forums, they won't make a DRM free version happen, but who knows. Chris Roberts just gathered 5.5M$ for game that's not even done yet, so maybe crowdfunding successes for (more or less) niche games will change their mind.

[Azrayen]

Oh, very good then. That's exactly what I was interested in in the first post. I was wondering if that minimum extra activation per month depended on any outside servers or was all in the locally installed application. If that's strictly local, then the worst case, after exhausting the initial set of activations, is one per month.

 

Thanks,

Justin

 

It don't think it is strictly local.

It does not depend on ED's operated servers either, but on StarForce's servers.

 

Hence:

- if ED quits business, StarForce will continue with the +1 system;

- if StarForce quits business, ED can either choose another protection or release a DRM-free version.

 

Cheers

Az'

 

PS: Nitpicking here, but anyway:

- whatever software you buy, you only "rent" it cause what you bought is a licence to use;

- what if your Falcon 4 disk gets damaged? ;)

[Cookie]

Chris Roberts just gathered 5.5M$ for game that's not even done yet

Actually it´s seven million dollars (!!) already. I threw 65 bucks at them just to show Chris and his team my support and appreciation. Oh, and to reserve my Origin 300i ship of course. :D

[EtherealN]

Obvious downside to crowd-funding like that: once the game is done, you ship a tonne of copies at... no revenue. Already used that money. So when you want to do another game after that, the first one better be a huge success OR you better be able to crowd-source again.

 

It's a worthy alternative to publisher-funding (where the publisher pays for development, but in return for this risk does take most of the profits as well), but optimally you want to be revenue funded. If you do have revenue funding for your projects there really is no reason to crowd-fund except if you need it to fuel expansion.

[Yurgon]

Actually it´s seven million dollars (!!) already.

 

Ho-ly Cow! I guess that's what happens when I don't read the newsletter on a regular (as in: daily) basis. :)

 

Obvious downside to crowd-funding like that: once the game is done, you ship a tonne of copies at... no revenue. Already used that money. So when you want to do another game after that, the first one better be a huge success OR you better be able to crowd-source again.

 

Yeah, I'd say the hardcore fans and a lot of potential fans are already on board by the time of release. But if the product is really good and receives a lot of positive feedback, they could still sell copies for all the people that got attracted later on or didn't want to risk crowd-funding in the first place.

 

It'll be interesting to see how these crowd-funded games play out both from the point of view of perception by players/backers as well as from an economic point of view.

 

It's a worthy alternative to publisher-funding (where the publisher pays for development, but in return for this risk does take most of the profits as well), but optimally you want to be revenue funded. If you do have revenue funding for your projects there really is no reason to crowd-fund except if you need it to fuel expansion.

 

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, but instead could work out side-by-side. As long as the crowd-funding crowd gets some kind of bonus (like a copy of the game for less than the retail price once it hits the stores), there'll be a potential for crowd-funding and continuous revenue.

 

Translating to ED, if they offered crowd-funding for DCS: Fixed Wing with varying levels of benefit (*), I'm pretty sure there'd be substantial amounts of cash available in just 30 days.

 

(*) Just some wild figures:

20$: Regular backer, get a copy of the game once it's finished

35$: Bonus backer, get all previous benefits + access to the beta

50$: Premium backer, get all previous benefits + access to the alpha

70$: Superb backer, get all previous benefits + a stupid pin mailed to your RL address

100$: Extra-cool backer, get all previous benefits + your name in the game's credits

1000$: Ultimate backer, get all previous benefits + a shake hands with an ED forum mod closest to your home :megalol:

 

Obviously, I was partly kidding there. On the other hand, some of the benefits offered by crowd-funded projects like "Get a dinner with the producer" have been on offer for ridiculous amounts of cash, and apparently backers did choose such options. The secret, it appears, is to make people want to throw their money at you - and Chris Roberts really did a splendid job at that (but will have to make do with just my 35$ :lol:).

 

Let's assume that the game gets finished with an acceptable delay, fulfills people's expectations and receives good press: Then there'll be the traditional market where people get to buy it for the standard price so that cash is available for continuous development, bugfixes, add-ons and so on.

 

I believe this could actually work out.

[sobek]

Yes, it does sound like this DRM is a bit risky -- I'm glad to hear that ED would release a DRM-free patch if they go out of business, but seriously, it may be hard for them to do that, depending on the circumstances.

 

It isn't. ;)

[EtherealN]

As long as the crowd-funding crowd gets some kind of bonus (like a copy of the game for less than the retail price once it hits the stores)

 

But if you already have what you need for the project, why discount it like that? This would mean that you are diminishing the lifetime revenue of the product for no reason, which is liable to make you actually need crowd-funding for real later on.

 

It makes sense if the alternative is to not be able to make the product at all, but if you can fund it with existing revenue (past products etcetera) the only reason to offer such discounts would be PR or fiscal (one I can think of would be that you have existing debt, and securing an advance of sort on the revenue will help you reduce your credit-related costs and risk exposures). Those can of course be good reasons though.

 

For startups like Star Citizen there's other utilities as well: besides giving them money to use for the project, it also served to demonstrate to investors (which they apparently had waiting) that there is real interest in the product. Thousands of people actually putting money down (for no equity even!) speaks a lot louder to an investor than stuff like internet petitions or dorky devs saying "well of course people want this enough that you should give us 20 million dollars".

[Cookie]

1000$: Ultimate backer, get all previous benefits + a shake hands with an ED forum mod closest to your home :megalol:

Just to be clear here, would I need to pay that sum, or would I receive that sum if I let them shake my hands?

 

Oops, gotta run, there´s what appears to be a banhammer coming in at supersonic speed...

 

:D

[Yurgon]

But if you already have what you need for the project, why discount it like that? This would mean that you are diminishing the lifetime revenue of the product for no reason, which is liable to make you actually need crowd-funding for real later on.

 

It would also mean that a company would get a lot of cash from their hardcore fans by the time development starts. I can't think of any company that wouldn't be totally thrilled by this idea.

 

These people won't need to buy the game after release, but they'll be multipliers all the way through development for practically no extra cost other than feeding them cool screenshots and videos during the development phase - something that RSI, for instance, seems to be pretty wild about.

 

For startups like Star Citizen there's other utilities as well: besides giving them money to use for the project, it also served to demonstrate to investors (which they apparently had waiting) that there is real interest in the product. Thousands of people actually putting money down (for no equity even!) speaks a lot louder to an investor than stuff like internet petitions or dorky devs saying "well of course people want this enough that you should give us 20 million dollars".

 

I fully agree on the last part. Regarding the equity aspect, that depends on the point of view. Crowd-funding investors aka backers won't get any cash, even if the project does really well. But they're promised to get the product and a certain amount of features, possibly giving them an advantage over other backers and regular customers. If that (as in: getting the finished product as a reward for the backing) wasn't the case, I doubt crowd-funding would go as well as it currently does.

 

Crowd-funding isn't the ultimate nor the only solution. But I love the fact that projects get funded that professional investors didn't think were worth the investment. Crowd-funding is, right now, most of all an alternative if other funding models don't work, or don't work well.

 

Just to be clear here, would I need to pay that sum, or would I receive that sum if I let them shake my hands?

 

Oops, gotta run, there´s what appears to be a banhammer coming in at supersonic speed...

 

:D

 

Well for the two of us, EtherealN probably isn't the closest-to-home forum mod, so maybe he won't take offense. :D

[Wolfie]

Sorry in advance, as I'm not able to answer your questions with complete confidence...

 

I think ED has the DRM in place for the reasons you mention (to hold on to potential sales lost to piracy).

 

I too have a slight problem with "leasing" software, but I will say (with brevity :)) that all offerings from ED thus far have been worth the price of admission (and some). I've been enjoying DCS A10c for the last 2+ years and it's been worth many more times the price of admission.

 

My best advice would be to give DCS World a try (free) and see what ED has to offer, you won't be disappointed :)

 

Lol, just came across this post. This game doesn't need DRM. If you look around on the pirate sites, NO ONE is trying to pirate this game. NO ONE. We are beyond NICHE. I remember a few years ago a few people did pirate BS1 ( probably about 10 people ) and maybe a handful A-10, but thats it. And they probably lost interest in about 5 minutes. This game is so dead online that I wish someone WOULD pirate it. At least we might convince one or two to learn the controls and stay.

 

So please, ED, ditch the uber strong DRM already. No one wants to pirate this game. All the pirates are simpletons who are into Battlefield and COD. Your only causing the paying customers PAIN. And believe me, StarForce is a PAIN IN THE ASS.

Edited April 23, 2013 by Wolfie

[SimHog]

Lol, just came across this post. This game doesn't need DRM. If you look around on the pirate sites, NO ONE is trying to pirate this game. NO ONE. We are beyond NICHE. I remember a few years ago a few people did pirate BS1 ( probably about 10 people ) and maybe a handful A-10, but thats it. And they probably lost interest in about 5 minutes. This game is so dead online that I wish someone WOULD pirate it. At least we might convince one or two to learn the controls and stay.

 

So please, ED, ditch the uber strong DRM already. No one wants to pirate this game. All the pirates are simpletons who are into Battlefield and COD. Your only causing the paying customers PAIN. And believe me, StarForce is a PAIN IN THE ASS.

 

What an odd thing to say :huh:

 

I don't have any issue with any DRM, and never did.

 

I just fired up Silent Hunter 5 the other day, it installed UPlay, updated it, I did have to hunt down my old login details but it wasn't their fault. Once sorted I logged in and I'm off.

 

I never understand why people hate DRM's, the only reason I can think of is their pro-pirating themselves or they're miss-informed.

[EtherealN]

Lol, just came across this post. This game doesn't need DRM. If you look around on the pirate sites, NO ONE is trying to pirate this game. NO ONE. We are beyond NICHE. I remember a few years ago a few people did pirate BS1 ( probably about 10 people ) and maybe a handful A-10, but thats it. And they probably lost interest in about 5 minutes. This game is so dead online that I wish someone WOULD pirate it. At least we might convince one or two to learn the controls and stay.

 

So please, ED, ditch the uber strong DRM already. No one wants to pirate this game. All the pirates are simpletons who are into Battlefield and COD. Your only causing the paying customers PAIN. And believe me, StarForce is a PAIN IN THE ASS.

 

I now spent 2 minutes and found people trying. Your argument is invalid.

 

You are assuming that people try based on whether they succeed. Maybe, just maybe, the system is doing it's job? ;)

 

The DRM in use is not "uber strong" either. It is an online activation system with less authority on your computer than your web browser has. (Indeed, it is technically weaker than the old systems for CD and DVD media, since it's not even locked to a physical delivery media that can get broken.)

 

The piracy discussion is pretty much off-topic though. It has been done to death.

[Wolfie]

DRM is about piracy. And its fail. A-10 and BS were cracked long, long ago. And a handful of people downloaded them. And probably threw it off their computers when they found out it was a hard study sim. The point is, DRM only hurts us, the paying customers. Only serious people buy this game and those types can afford it. The COD / McDonald's worker types that pirate would never have bought this game. DRM is un-waranted since it only causes pain to the real players and is near insta-cracked by the pirates anyway.

[sobek]

[...]

 

Please explain how the DRM hurts you.

 

Are you per chance trying to run it in in vmware?