R-27ER or R-27ET

[Mainstay]

Wich of the 2 is overall the better? cause atm im experiencing alot of misses.

[Dell_Murrey-RUS]

Wich of the 2 is overall the better? cause atm im experiencing alot of misses.

 

Everything depends on your tactics. And a lot of things depend on a situation. Attack from a passive optical mode is possible only with R-27T, R-60M, R-73 rockets.

In my practice, I forced down R-27T(ET) more often. However, there were cases of effective application of R-27R (ER).

For example some videos from online:

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[Ironhand]

Both have their uses. Don't know how familiar you are with A2A combat but one thing to remember is that, if you launch as soon as you get launch authorization, you will likely almost always miss.

 

The reason is that you get authorization as soon as the missile is within kinematic range. That is, as soon as the situation will allow the missile to reach its intended target if no parameters change. So, if your intended target continues merrily on his way without changing course, speed, or altitude, your missile should intercept him.

 

If you look at the HUD, you will see the DLZ (Dynamic Launch Zone). Currently, it's broken for the Russian birds in that all missiles use the same DLZ while in search or STT modes. (Presently, you can only see each missile's correct DLZ, while in TWS mode.) The point, however, is that you will see three marks that comprise the DLZ. The top one is Rmax, the max range mark, and is basically a "0" percentage shot. The bottom mark is the minimum range mark. The one in between the two is the Rtr. Think of it as the "Range: turn and run" mark. Basically, even if he turns and runs, your missile should have the energy to reach him.

 

So, I'm wondering if you are missing so frequently because you are launching too soon. You don't necessarily need to wait for Rtr. In fact, the situation may demand that you don't. But it helps to understand--in case you don't already--what the DLZ is telling you about your chances for success.

 

 

Rich

Edited December 6, 2012 by Ironhand

[FLANKERATOR]

Wich of the 2 is overall the better? cause atm im experiencing alot of misses.

 

It could be everything or anything, uploading a track will help people figure it out.

[Rhinox]

...if you launch as soon as you get launch authorization, you will likely almost always miss.

 

The reason is that you get authorization as soon as the missile is within kinematic range....

I think this general statement is not always true for R-27ET in passive (optical) mode. Especially for head-on targets you get LA pretty late, when target is deep within the missile's zone.

 

ET (and T) does not have datalink, so it gets LA only when missile seeker locked on target. But heat signature of head-on flying target (in its forward hemisphere) is not strong enough to be detected by missile seeker as soon as the target gets into kill missile's zone. It is detected much later...

[ZaltysZ]

R-27ET is great for tail chases, because it has IR seeker and long burning motor. (it is harder to outrun ET). SARH missiles (like R-27ER) can be problematic in tail chases, if target and launching platform are at similar speeds (doppler radar does not see targets with 0 closure rate). If it is not a tail chase, and range permits, launch missiles in salvos: 1xR-27ER + 1xR-27ET, and PK will increase.

[Meatwod]

For a head on engagement, which I assume you firing at max range, you should expect the R-27ER to miss, bit this is not a bad thing. The target will manuever unless he has no knowledge of BFM at all. This is exactly what you want since he can't employ weaposn anymore and you can continue closing distance. It also exposes his tail which gives you a perfect R-27ET shot (or close range heater if you are in range).

 

Think of long range BVR missiles as deterance rather than weapons. Against AI you can force them to waste all of the BVR missiles and then employ the above tactic with ease. However, this tactic won't work against experienced human pilots. The only was to beat an experienced pilot that always reacts correctly is force him to make and mistake. Forcing them to make a mistake without making one yourself will take years of reading and practice.

[EtherealN]

See my "location" on the left... :D

 

On a more serious note though, they do have different applications. In a head-on engagement the ET is severely limited by it's seeker. Tail-on it allows pretty good range and silent launch, the latter being what tends to kill me. :)

 

One option is to pair them, when the situation permits - something people also use to good effect against me when I play online. I get launch warning, go defensive and notch the radar seeker missile - and then explode by the IR-seeker missile that was also coming. (The idea here is that to defend against the ER I will dive and notch, meaning that I am not running away from the missile, which then has me stay a good target for the ET. I have this mental block against also dropping flares when defending against SARH missiles.)

 

But as mentioned, we would probably need some examples or tracks to see where your problems are, since the missiles are so different due to the seeker that there really is no way to say one is better than the other.

[Frostie]

Always go for a stealthy ET kill, especially against F-15's, because as soon as you launch on a bandit with ER it gives away your position immediately, now you have to keep heading towards the bandit to make the kill and more often than not that bandit will forget about his life and turn nose onto you to fire his fire and forget AIM-120C. Mutual kill inbound.

 

If the engagement is long range or the bandit is engaging you then obviously ER's are the main choice, but you don't really want this fight unless you're facing another SARH user, try and get close and surprise the living crap out of the enemy. But if he sees your ET then it's an easy spoof for him.

[Exorcet]

Always go for a stealthy ET kill, especially against F-15's, because as soon as you launch on a bandit with ER it gives away your position immediately, now you have to keep heading towards the bandit to make the kill and more often than not that bandit will forget about his life and turn nose onto you to fire his fire and forget AIM-120C. Mutual kill inbound.

 

If the engagement is long range or the bandit is engaging you then obviously ER's are the main choice, but you don't really want this fight unless you're facing another SARH user, try and get close and surprise the living crap out of the enemy. But if he sees your ET then it's an easy spoof for him.

 

Same here, I tend to think of the ET as my main weapon. If I get a ER kill great, but it's usually risky, especially against ARH missiles.

 

The thing about the ET is that it's easier to dupe than the ER. A good flare dump with some minor maneuvering is often enough to shake the ET. Don't let the target see the smoke trail. It's as bad as a lock warning.

 

I have a track saved where I'm looking over my shoulder as someone I didn't see launches a R-73 at me from behind. It was great timing. I was able to defeat the missile that would have otherwise been a certain kill at worst, or a lost engine at best.

[71st_Mastiff]

this is some good stuff, thanks guys! :thumbup:

[blkspade]

Always go for a stealthy ET kill, especially against F-15's, because as soon as you launch on a bandit with ER it gives away your position immediately, now you have to keep heading towards the bandit to make the kill and more often than not that bandit will forget about his life and turn nose onto you to fire his fire and forget AIM-120C. Mutual kill inbound.

 

If the engagement is long range or the bandit is engaging you then obviously ER's are the main choice, but you don't really want this fight unless you're facing another SARH user, try and get close and surprise the living crap out of the enemy. But if he sees your ET then it's an easy spoof for him.

 

Anybody that flies against Russian jets enough should just learn to automatically expect to expect an IR missile once within a certain range. You are a very sneaky bastard there Frostie. I rarely take ETs or 73s to the face anymore, and stay off the burner for as long as I can within 8nm. Its usually one from a bandit I never saw or lost sight of that got on my 6. A lot those times its usually you. You've probably gotten more IR kills on me than all the dedicated Russian drivers combined. I do try not to make it easy for ya, and have gotten to the point that I when I see you on radar, I can pick you out from the other 27s.

[Frostie]

Anybody that flies against Russian jets enough should just learn to automatically expect to expect an IR missile once within a certain range. You are a very sneaky bastard there Frostie. I rarely take ETs or 73s to the face anymore, and stay off the burner for as long as I can within 8nm. Its usually one from a bandit I never saw or lost sight of that got on my 6. A lot those times its usually you. You've probably gotten more IR kills on me than all the dedicated Russian drivers combined. I do try not to make it easy for ya, and have gotten to the point that I when I see you on radar, I can pick you out from the other 27s.

Yikes, he's on to me. :D

Going against you Spade has become a great new challenge and i'm sure the 104th are glad to have you on board. I think expecting an IR and dropping flares is a 104th mantra and one well placed.