Rusky radar question

[BuzzU]

Pilotasso, you missed the point entirely! I would suggest that you read the thread from the bigining!

 

The question of Su-27 carrying R-77’s and F-15 carrying only AIM-7’s was hypothetical!

 

We know, and hypothetical has no value in the discussion. Let's talk about what we really have.

[TucksonSonny]

The best pilots will. Do you think tactics is nothing?

 

P.S. Is it necessary to put "!" in the end of each sentence? ;) I can hear you. :)

 

 

If the best pilot will win put him in a mig-21.

Su’s can take better advantage of AWACS because they need to stay out of range of shorter AIM-120 range and keep lock while f-poling and more importantly the Su pilot does not have to guess the range. For the F-15C pilot it is the opposite. Because the ideal range for AIM-120 launch is anyway inside ECM burn through range. Of course F-15C pilot get also advantage with AIM-7.

BTW in 1990 (lomac’s simulation period) Russian datalink was superior vs western datalink and AIM-120 was B (not C version) and of course R-73 was far more effective than AIM-9. It was recently AIM-9X that changed that situation.

[Gazehound]

Just take a good look at that screenshot! First two on the list are MiG-29's. Sukhois are down the list, some of them with 4 losses and no kills! Now, I don't know what missiles MiG's used for all of the kills, however, it is the MiG's that are on the top, not the Sukhois!

The top one is a MiG 29A

 

So r27-Rs, not ERs (of 2), and R73s, and no ecm.

[GGTharos]

I'll have to quote myself, because I didn't get an answer. I plan on getting serious with LO and start flying online later. Just like in FB/PF, I never wanted to take the easy plane. Not because i'm an ace, but because if I get a kill, I don't want it because the plane did all the work.

 

So, will the advantage the F-15 has, stay after the next patch? If so, i'll start flying the Russian planes. (and probably die alot)

 

Yes, it will have -an- edge.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

The F-15C did not get datalink until 2001, so it should not have it in LOMAC - however it is also missing many other functions that it should have.

Well, that's it! F-15 did not have it and that's it! Su-27S at that thime did not have ARH! And tah's it!

 

So I am asking the mission makers for on-line games to please include AWACS/GCI on BOTH sides in the future!

 

Just as much you GGTharos insisted that Flanker pilots should use tactics against F-15/ARH missiles, I suggest F-15 pilots to use tactics against Flanker datalink capability!

[Yellonet]

Just take a good look at that screenshot! First two on the list are MiG-29's. Sukhois are down the list, some of them with 4 losses and no kills! Now, I don't know what missiles MiG's used for all of the kills, however, it is the MiG's that are on the top, not the Sukhois!

Exactly. The first one is a MiG-29A, which can carry R-27R, R-27T(?), R-73 and R-60M.

[GGTharos]

If the best pilot will win put him in a mig-21.

 

Su’s can take better advantage of AWACS because they need to stay out of range of shorter AIM-120 range and keep lock while f-poling and more importantly the Su pilot does not have to guess the range. For the F-15C pilot it is the opposite. Because the ideal range for AIM-120 launch is anyway inside ECM burn through range. Of course F-15C pilot get also advantage with AIM-7.

 

BTW in 1990 (lomac’s simulation period) Russian datalink was superior vs western datalink and AIM-120 was B (not C version) and of course R-73 was far more effective than AIM-9. It was recently AIM-9X that changed that situation.

 

What do you mean 'more effective'?

 

In the EE conflict, the R-73's Pk was about 33%. The 9M had a Pk of 80% by comparison in other conflicts.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

P.S. Is it necessary to put "!" in the end of each sentence? ;) I can hear you. :)

I appologize. Got little carried away ...

Regards,

[Pilotasso]

Pilotasso, you missed the point entirely! I would suggest that you read the thread from the bigining!

 

The question of Su-27 carrying R-77’s and F-15 carrying only AIM-7’s was hypothetical!

 

I understood you the first time! But as I said the analogy You used is a bit off. First because in LOMAC the SARH in the russian side are so much better than the AIM-7, that reversing the roles wont give the answer to your question as you would like hear it. Neither will you ever be able to use R-77's on multiple targets anyway...Much of the F-15's successes is also due to radar contribution to situational awareness as opsed to the Su's pseudo-RWS.

 

Giving R-77's to SU-27and Sparrows to f-15's will still have mixed results, because you change weapons but not the planes. And then theres this question of the tactics you might have been aplying for the Su-27 wich might be inadequate.

[GGTharos]

Well, that's it! F-15 did not have it and that's it! Su-27S at that thime did not have ARH! And tah's it!

 

So I am asking the mission makers for on-line games to please include AWACS/GCI on BOTH sides in the future!

 

Just as much you GGTharos insisted that Flanker pilots should use tactics against F-15/ARH missiles, I suggest F-15 pilots to use tactics against Flanker datalink capability!

 

We already do. ;) A number of servers already use EWR/AWACS.

 

You'll still get shot down all the same.

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

So r27-Rs, not ERs (of 2), and R73s, and no ecm.

Excelent! I congratulate you. From what I can see, there was no F-15's on RED side? So you actually did not kill any F-15's in that session did you?

[GGTharos]

Just take a good look at that screenshot! First two on the list are MiG-29's. Sukhois are down the list, some of them with 4 losses and no kills! Now, I don't know what missiles MiG's used for all of the kills, however, it is the MiG's that are on the top, not the Sukhois!

You didn't even look closely at that picture, did you?

 

Top: Mig-29A, 6:1

Next, Mig-29S, 4:2

then Su-33, 1:1

Then F-15C, 0:1

Then F-15C, 1:3

 

So you've been proven dead wrong ;)

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Exactly. The first one is a MiG-29A, which can carry R-27R, R-27T(?), R-73 and R-60M.

However, there was no F-15's on red side! I assume he did not kill any F-15 during that session.

[TucksonSonny]

What do you mean 'more effective'?

 

In the EE conflict, the R-73's Pk was about 33%. The 9M had a Pk of 80% by comparison in other conflicts.

 

 

What do you mean in other conflicts? Maybe you consider Iraq and yugo-war as an equal scientific test case. Please stop …

[Gazehound]

However, there was no F-15's on red side! I assume he did not kill any F-15 during that session.

No thats true - But got some mig29S kills and its the same in my book (barring TWS silent launch).

[TucksonSonny]

You didn't even look closely at that picture, did you?

 

Top: Mig-29A, 6:1

Next, Mig-29S, 4:2

then Su-33, 1:1

Then F-15C, 0:1

Then F-15C, 1:3

 

So you've been proven dead wrong ;)

 

 

Bad example … Noobs involved :biggrin:

[GGTharos]

What do you mean in other conflicts? Maybe you consider Iraq and yugo-war as an equal scientific test case. Please stop …

 

Ah, ok ... in that case YOU must have some scientific test cases to compare the two missiles and make your assessment, right? :D

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

You didn't even look closely at that picture, did you?

GGTharos, by his own admission, he was on BLUE side! No F-15's on RED side! The first RED Su-27 on the list is the one with FOUR losses and NOT a single kill!

So you've been proven dead wrong ;)

When proven wrong, I seek for a chance to learn from my mistake!

[GGTharos]

GGTharos, by his own admission, he was on BLUE side! No F-15's on RED side! The first RED Su-27 on the list is the one with FOUR losses and NOT a single kill!

 

... and given the number of kills gotten by F-15's, they got nailed by the MiG-29A most of the time. Which just proves my point: It's the pilot, not the armament. Also the other side has MiG-29S which was also shot down. So are you now saying that this should be ignored? They ARE carrying ARH, and you're complaining about ARH.

 

When proven wrong, I seek for a chance to learn from my mistake!

Good, because that is the ONLY way you will ever beat an F-15 without flying a UFO or slinging S-300's under your wings ;)

[Gazehound]

Hadjuk my point was that it is not necessary to have equvalent missiles in order to be victorious. Its hard and victory is sweet - so if you think the 27 is disadvantaged - revel in it and enjoy your sucesses :) it will alwys be impossible to balance two flyables with different characteristics - the same in any type of game.

[504Goon]

GGTharos, by his own admission, he was on BLUE side! No F-15's on RED side! The first RED Su-27 on the list is the one with FOUR losses and NOT a single kill!

When proven wrong, I seek for a chance to learn from my mistake!

 

The first red 29S has 2 deaths, and i assure you, one of them was made by 29A.

 

@Tucson: No noobs there.

[Pilotasso]

GGTharos, by his own admission, he was on BLUE side! No F-15's on RED side! The first RED Su-27 on the list is the one with FOUR losses and NOT a single kill!

When proven wrong, I seek for a chance to learn from my mistake!

 

Whoever flew that mig sucked as a virtual pilot. There are a lot of noobs out there. Whenever I enter a session Ill see aces on top of the killboard regardless of the plane used. Now, when your talking about noob pilots then yes, theyll all get fried easier in the russian planes that in the F-15 because they use their Mig's and Su-27's as if they were on equal terms as the F-15 (i.e. wrong tactics). Also I would like to add that Your Hotas Setup and the games own modeling can offset some of the real aircraft disavantages. I do believe that real Russian Migs and pilots are more likely fare worse than Virtual ones.

[TucksonSonny]

Ah, ok ... in that case YOU must have some scientific test cases to compare the two missiles and make your assessment, right? :D

 

 

I am surprised that an ED tester did not know this stuff :icon_wink

German Mig-29 pilots demonstrated the adder advantage during Red flag exercises in the US.

[GGTharos]

I am surprised that an ED tester did not know this stuff :icon_wink

German Mig-29 pilots demonstrated the adder advantage during Red flag exercises in the US.

 

And F-16 pilots proceeeded to demonstrate that proper IRCM will defeat the R-73 most of the time in the same exercises. You're using an exercise where missiles were not fired as a 'scientific test case'? :eek:

[4c Hajduk Veljko]

Its hard and victory is sweet - so if you think the 27 is disadvantaged - revel in it and enjoy your sucesses :)

I will not fly Su-27 on maps that do not include AWACS/GCI! I don't feel like I should be a sitting duck for F-15's in the virtual skies of lock On.

 

It is perfectly fair to have Su-27 without ARH missiles in lock On! It is perfectly fair to have F-15's without datalink in Lock On! It is perfectly fair to have AWACS/GCI, ON BOTH SIDES, assitning Su-27's!