Air-to-Air Missile Discussion

[EtherealN]

As I said: realism is not guaranteed at this point since the underlying flight model mechanics are currently being tuned due to being replaced entirely. This is beta. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_test#Beta

 

As being a beta, do not expect "realistic" yet. It is still being tuned. AAMs have been redone from the core basics, from a simplistic model to a full-physics simulation model. Getting them to act as in reality is extremely complex and is work that is continuing during the beta period. This is made harder due to the fact that real information is sparse since this is military equipment and thus the best data is extremely classified.

 

Therefore, if you see behaviour that you feel is incorrect in the present beta, we would appreciate track files showing the behaviour such that we can look at it and see what happened and why.

[dores893]

A fired a spread of 6 between 20-14 miles against the Mig before I had to go defensive. I fired 2 head to head at 4 miles against the SU-25. I didn't get a single hit.

[dores893]

That's fine, but if you are going to nerf the F15 and the AAMRAAM, nerf the russian and their equipment too. If I can't get a hit in 6 shots, they shouldn't hit every time.

[EtherealN]

Probably FC2 dynamics for the russian planes that didn't nerfed in the reboot.

 

Incorrect.

 

ALL air-to-air missiles now have AFMs. All of them.

 

Look around and you'll see people giving the exact opposite argument about version 1.2.2. ;)

[EtherealN]

A fired a spread of 6 between 20-14 miles against the Mig before I had to go defensive. I fired 2 head to head at 4 miles against the SU-25. I didn't get a single hit.

 

Again, I need to see the situation to judge what happened. This is accomplished by attaching a track file. To procure a track file, after finishing the flight and seeing the debrief screen, select the "Save Track" button. Then find this file in your Saved Games folder and attach this here.

 

20 to 14 miles is not "absolute kill country" for a slammer. It depends a lot on what the enemy is doing, and firing SIX missiles in this space is an absolute waste. If anything, fire first at 20 to put your target defensive and then maneuver towards an advantageous geometry for your followup shot at closer range. Simply firing more missiles does NOT get you a kill. If he can defeat one, he can defeat all. For example through exploiting the "pule-doppler notch" with a momentary lower-altitude beaming maneuver.

Edited March 6, 2013 by EtherealN

[Outlaw]

Yes aim 120 is not as it was was in 1.2.2 however you still can get kills from 20 to 30 miles which I did in 1.2.3 with 1 missile shot.. Before you complain how about post a track we can have a look at or mentioning your approach tactics and enemy tactics..

 

Every time I join a server and get a kill since FC2 the opponent complains about not having the kill even with firing 4 or 6 Aim120s and asks how many missiles I fired at them which is 1 as always.. let me keep it simple

 

Dosnt matter how many missiles you shoot at your enemy if you are sitting at Rmax, Rmin or having a bad AOA. Terrain location and altitude plays a big role in each engagement that you can use for your own advantage..

Edited March 6, 2013 by Outlaw

[EtherealN]

That's fine, but if you are going to nerf the F15 and the AAMRAAM, nerf the russian and their equipment too. If I can't get a hit in 6 shots, they shouldn't hit every time.

 

No-one is nerfing anything.

 

Please read carefully:

 

Tuning of these missiles is ongoing throughout the beta.

They have all had their flight models replaced entirely, towards an advanced physics model.

This means it is very complicated to get them "right".

Getting them right is a continuing process. We are not there yet.

If you think you've seen something that is wrong, please attach a track and we will analyze it to see what happened.

 

and finally:

 

there is no difference between western and eastern missiles in this. ALL air-to-air missiles are undergoing this process.

[dores893]

Having played FC2 online almost every day for the last 8 months, I can tell you that shots that would have been 100% kill in FC2 have thus been 100% miss in my limited FC3 online experience. This seems like a big leap to me. Was FC2 that unrealistic?

[EtherealN]

Please, sir, I beg of you. Please read what I say.

 

We make no claims that current FC3 missile behaviour is more or less realistic than in FC2. I am trying to explain to you that this product is not yet released, it is offered for pre-purchase, and those that pre-order gain access to BETA code as a thankyou for their pre-purchase.

 

As one of the features of FC3, Air-to-air missiles have been redone completely. They are now using an advanced physics-based flight model, which they did not in FC2. Now, this is still a beta product, it is not yet released, this is still work in progress where missiles are being continually tuned for various factors (the most important of which are not known since they are military secrets held under severe penalty up to an including life imprisonment by the countries involved).

 

With respect, I do not care what you can "tell me". I care what you can show me. This is easy to do: just save the track file after the flight and attach it here. I can then see and analyze it completely to see EXACTLY what happened, which then would allow me to file bug reports to the coders to get any actual errors fixed.

 

If you want this fixed, please consider simply saving the file and give it to me. It would take less time than you have already spent posting in this thread.

[Corrigan]

but why u nerf misiles lol

[dores893]

If I showed you something, you'd just tell it me it was beta. :) Heard that one a few too many times arleady.

[EtherealN]

If I showed you something, you'd just tell it me it was beta. :) Heard that one a few too many times arleady.

 

No, if you showed me something, like the track, I would be able to actually see what happened and do something about it.

 

Now, seriously, either show me what's happening or just stop posting, because if all you want to do is to complain for the sake of complaining to the point of directly refusing a hand in aid to get your issue fixed, I'll have to find this to be trolling under rule 1.10.

 

You already have the evidence. Show it to me so I can fix it. Please. If you don't want it fixed, why are you posting about it?

[Corrigan]

Hey Daniel, why did you nerf the missiles? WHY?!

[EtherealN]

Because I'm evil, hate babies, and like to see elderly people pushed down stairs. :)

[theChris]

hi is it normal for an active missile(in perticular the aim120b) to obtain a target 60-80 degrees below? Also do jammers effect aim120 radar

[EtherealN]

theChris, is this online?

[GGTharos]

80-60 deg from the missile centerline? It shouldn't. 60 degrees should be the maximum, in fact, more like 55 degrees.

 

But people for the most part are also incredibly bad at judging angles. And yes, jammers do have an effect.

 

hi is it normal for an active missile(in perticular the aim120b) to obtain a target 60-80 degrees below? Also do jammers effect aim120 radar

[theChris]

hi it is in su27 campaign single player ill quickly check to make sure it is above 60 degrees before i post the track

 

edit: ok i went over it quickly and the two enemy f-16s both are at 90ish degree angle from me and my ai flanker plus the one infront engages su25t which is thier main objective. the action starts around 60 minutes

 

here is the track http://www.mediafire.com/?23k761ggdme8uar

and here is a low quality small yt video i recorded from the track for easy viewing of the aim120 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM9NFJhWNYI&feature=youtube_gdata

Edited March 6, 2013 by theChris
dont want to double post

[Cali]

Man, how many times do you guys have to tell people that missiles are a WIP? In 1.2.2 the ER's were nerfed, now in 1.2.3 people are saying the 120's are nerfed. No matter what happens something is not going to be right, cause it's in beta. Oops, forgot that the 120 and 77's were also nerfed in 1.2.2. I don't know what you are doing to not hit a 25 at 4 miles head on, but you need to change it. Also, to fire 6x120's from 14-20 miles and miss is a little fishy also. I've heard a few people say the missiles are better now, but 14 miles......you should get a hit. Post the track if you have it.

[GGTharos]

I certainly can't tell the angle from the video. Can you?

 

hi it is in su27 campaign single player ill quickly check to make sure it is above 60 degrees before i post the track

 

edit: ok i went over it quickly and the two enemy f-16s both are at 90ish degree angle from me and my ai flanker plus the one infront engages su25t which is thier main objective. the action starts around 60 minutes

 

here is the track http://www.mediafire.com/?23k761ggdme8uar

and here is a low quality small yt video i recorded from the track for easy viewing of the aim120 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM9NFJhWNYI&feature=youtube_gdata

[Exorcet]

I've heard a few people say the missiles are better now, but 14 miles......you should get a hit. Post the track if you have it.

From my own testing I can certainly see poor AMRAAM Pk beyond 10 miles, but of course each case depends on the situation.

 

The missile bleeds energy so fast that it's not useful against something maneuvering when it's out of fuel.

[GGTharos]

The missile doesn't have energy to begin with right now. Missiles are still in heavy tuning and testing them won't do you much good.

[Exorcet]

Oh, I understand that. I'm just saying that I don't think it's surprising to miss repeatedly at 14 miles with the current AMRAAM, even with a good shot.

[GGTharos]

Yep, technically speaking, at low altitude that's pretty close to Rmax anyway. Even with a re-turned AMRAAM it might not be the greatest shot. We'll see :)

[Frostie]

hi it is in su27 campaign single player ill quickly check to make sure it is above 60 degrees before i post the track

 

edit: ok i went over it quickly and the two enemy f-16s both are at 90ish degree angle from me and my ai flanker plus the one infront engages su25t which is thier main objective. the action starts around 60 minutes

 

here is the track http://www.mediafire.com/?23k761ggdme8uar

and here is a low quality small yt video i recorded from the track for easy viewing of the aim120 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM9NFJhWNYI&feature=youtube_gdata

 

Wow watched the track and that is some butt ugly flying.:D

I'm guessing you use either the keyboard or a game pad because I had to take a break half way through because of motion sickness or that could have been the constant switches to externals and map view run at x6 speed.

I'm not sure if you cut across the grass on purpose to get to the runway but when this happened I thought the track was bust.

 

Launching long range shots at high altitude do it much faster than >400IAS, you will get a faster longer reaching missile. Also when at >300IAS at 9000m you can't climb so stop trying, them warning sounds mean you're stalling the plane and losing altitude rather than gaining it. If you're that high and slow drop the nose 10 deg to build up speed, get speed in the top left of the HUD approx at least above 450IAS in NAV mode(BVR mode 900TAS) before climbing at about 10 deg. Keep them speeds as a minimum for launching also. Plus you used externals and map view probably about 60% of the time, you will learn a whole lot more if you just fly the plane.

Bit of advice, learn the game and how to fly before thinking about judging it. ;)

 

After running the track at 5-10 speed I watched the generated tacview so that i'm able to get a clear picture of what happened.

The AIM-120 that aquired your wingman picked him up at about 45-50 degrees you can see that by its transition from dead straight flight to a start in pitching down to your wingman at about 11km range, it then kept your wingman in its gimbals and overflew. The same happened with the missile on you.

 

The only problem here is that the missile doesn't behave as it should, the F-16 lost TWS lock on your wingman while the missile was still 40+km away instead of acting smart and flying its programmed trajectory to the planned last known intercept point where it will activate its own radar, it instead chooses the crazy option of immediately going into a dead straight flight and activating its radar trying to aquire anything within that 40km stretch, this is not a smart behaving missile and actually creates unrealistic behaviour. Please ED make it so.