3D Printer and CNC Router.

[Stevos758]

I have a 3d printer on the way to make some pit parts for myself. I would also like to purchase a CNC and build my own acrylic panels and other items with it. Thing is, they are expensive. I wanted to ask the community if it would be worth my time and money to invest in one of these machines and make extra panels for other pit builders? Would people buy them?

 

I am sure someone has though of this kind of thing before.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Also I would like to know if there is a central area where people with 3d printers and CNC could share there files and such.

[Ali Fish]

shapeways is a public site for 3dprinting and sharing of products etc. not sure about private sharing though.

[Gadroc]

Short answer... no.

 

Long answer there are several folks on the boards who have laser cutters and periodically sell panels (including myself). There is not enough volume of jobs to make money on this via volume, so you have to charge a lot which lowers your volume even more. You may be able to recover some of your cost and then have a great tool, but don't count on this as a money maker. In addition there are many who want mass produced quality and plug and play out of anything they buy. There is a lot of manual work to do in small run productions like this which just erodes your profit again, unless you don't value your time.

[Stevos758]

Short answer... no.

 

Long answer there are several folks on the boards who have laser cutters and periodically sell panels (including myself). There is not enough volume of jobs to make money on this via volume, so you have to charge a lot which lowers your volume even more. You may be able to recover some of your cost and then have a great tool, but don't count on this as a money maker. In addition there are many who want mass produced quality and plug and play out of anything they buy. There is a lot of manual work to do in small run productions like this which just erodes your profit again, unless you don't value your time.

 

Thanks. This is the honest kind of answer I was looking for.

 

I was just hoping to at least help with the costs of the tool. I am not looking for profit.

I can not afford to go out and buy one just to have. I am willing to put in the time as I would be making most of the things for myself anyways.

[Deadman]

Gadroc covered most of it. The second thing is not every item in the cockpit has a spec available so you have very little information. You will invest a lot of time in 3 d design/layout so ever thing fits together.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Deadman

[metalnwood]

Gadrocs hit the nail on the head and if you prefer to go with a CNC router over laser then you will be at a disadvantage compared to the guys selling laser engraved panels which do look better.

 

Of course, if you just need to tell the missus some excuse then yes, one out of three people say they will buy something for you. It's not until after you get the gear you find they were all bums with excuses :)

[Deadman]

Very True metalnwood :thumbup: there are way to many of those. Its great people show interested in a project but never make some thing for some that may order in the future.

[towsim]

The truth is, you need all three machines if you do it seriously. The CNC router is used for the panels. It works very exact when cutting out the templates. It is not so good for engraving labels on the panels. Below a certain character height it looks simply ugly. The bigger disadvantage is, you need a lot of experience to handle a CNC router. I spent a lot of money for wasted material. If you really by a CNC router you should first determine the dimensions of the biggest piece you will ever work on. As smaller the CNC router, the smaller the price and you have the better accuracy. The CNC router should be driven by ball screws. A cooling system is important. It should go along 3 axes. The forth axis is nice to have but never used for panel work. All CNC software on the market is a nightmare for a beginner. But if you have the time and patience you will have a successful result at the end and less money. It would take more than 10 pages to explain all the details and trap doors you have to expect.

The Laser engraver is the best for labeling the panels. The result simply looks professional. It cannot be used to cut out panels. At least not in the price range we are talking about. I saw some interesting offers on the Chinese market around 1000$. But no indication for quality.

I have no experience with 3D printers. But I would assume, that panels would have not the quality compared to a CNC router. It would be good for certain 3D parts like knobs, levers and similar parts.

You have to take into account the time you have to spend. Say good bye to the dream that you can push a button and, on return after a while, you will have a well made panel. The machines need closed supervision to be able to interact right in time if something goes wrong. And you can be sure, there will be something going wrong. Especially during the learning process. A one hour process for a simple rectangular panel with some holes in it is normal. So if you plan to produce parts for other pit builders, the better advice is to make a exact drawing and give it to a company who is the specialist for it. All others is a expensive hobby.

Last not least, if you are married, you have to convince your wife that the money you spend is really necessary to save the world. And, that she has to enjoy the favorite TV series on her own for the next three years.

Good luck,

Mike

[Stevos758]

Great answers guys. This is what I expected I just needed to hear it from someone else.

 

I need to pt some serious though into this.

 

I planned on building a 4'x8' CNC as I would also use it for custom cabinets and woodworking projects. The thing is, as you mentioned that might not be accurate enough for this sort of thing. Maybe I will build a smaller one to build skills and see how it goes.

 

Ill tinker with my 3D printer for a while and see how that goes.

[metalnwood]

Steve, I am going to disagree with towsim on a few points but it may server as encouragement for you if your mind is set that way.

 

I know that you are now thinking about a laser but they are perfectly adequate for cutting the panels as well as engraving. There are a number of people doing it here and the examples of what they have produced are fantastic. The discussion was had a little while ago about what would be the best single machine for panel building. A router or a laser? The consensus was a laser which I agree with. It can both cut and engrave the parts.

 

Now, on to the CNC. The CNC router is capable of doing all the laser can do and more but where it lets itself down is with the engraving, it is not quite as good as the laser. Fred has recently been making panels and engraving with the CNC router so you can see some examples in his thread here. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=104011

 

If you have uses for the CNC router outside of panel making, e.g. cabinet making then the CNC router will be a lot more useful to you outside the hobby than a laser, especially a 8x4 machine.

 

In terms or accuracy, there is a little bit of a myth I think between ballscrews and rack and pinion. People will tell you that a ballscrew is more accurate and in many ways it should be, if you have a good one. On one of may machines I had 1610's on my x/t and 1605 on my Z.

 

This meant for every turn the nut would travel 10mm. Theoretically at 2000 steps per revolution I could move the screw 0.005mm. I cant measure that in my workshop though so it is irrelevant.

 

When I calibrate my machines I just do it with a dial indicator and a 200mm parallel. I use a dial indicator with marks every 0.01mm (0.0004") and on both machines rack and pinion + ballscrew I can repeatedly position the machine on the same mark.

 

In all practical terms they are as accurate as each other. You can make any machine less accurate than the other by what machining parameters you choose, introducing flex in to the router bit etc. On my rack and pinion the other day I machined some aluminium and after it was done it was accurate at the points I measured to +/- 0.02mm over 240mm. Perhaps I could have made it better by slowing things down but it didnt matter for this piece.

 

There is no reason why a larger machine made to the same standards can not be as accurate as a smaller machine made to the same standards.

 

for 8x4 ballscrews are expensive and also slow the machine a lot as they whip at higher speeds. I wouldnt kill the idea of an 8x4 just yet, it would be a nice machine to have.

[Miles Vorkosigan]

A CNC router can do very nice engraving, it depends on the tools that you use. Before I found the floating bit holder my engraving was terrible. The other thing that really helped was to just slow my machine down to a crawl. I was trying to run my toolpaths too fast. Even now there is a great deal of room for improvement in my engraving but as the adage goes "practice makes perfect".

 

Sure I would like to have a CNC laser, and probably will someday for cutting out R/C kits (router does fine but the balsa sheets need to be stuck to the cut surface with double sided tape, just a hassle, the laser would be quicker).

 

The text on these panels (ICP Modules for the F-16 cockpit) are 1/8" (actually .12") tall.

 

First the floating engraving bit that I made:

 

 

 

 

 

and a panel I made for a generic simpit (IL-2)