OT: F-22A Raptor goes operational

[ARM505]

Yes the F22 will pwn everything EXCEPT the threats it now needs to: the spread of religious fundamentalism and its result - the man with the gun on the ground. I think some of you need to get over the cold war pissing contest. An F22 doesn't win any 'hearts and minds!' You could use a WW2 era FW190 to bomb the guy - it doesn't need to be all stealthy!

 

In fact the FW190 might be better at CAS ;-) (That was said tongue in cheek BTW)

[Alfa]

The Su-47 will never become combat operational, so you can't really expect an aircraft that doesn't even have radar to stand a chance. Putin said the 37 would be the next mainline Russian fighter, but now I hear they don't even have the money for that and they never had any intention of ever selling those to China. Russia also heavily exagerates both their stealth and supercruise performance. The 47 only gets a little extra manueverability over the Su-37 due to those forward swept wings. The Super Fulcrum was an interesting design, but they never even finished the prototyping phase. They claimed they made it capable of supercruise, stealth, and an internal weapons bay, but it was mostly just an unworking show piece sitting on the runway and a lot of hot air. If you look at the design the weapons bay stuff was total B.S...there was barely enough room for two 73's in there.

 

Neither MiG´s 1.44 project nor Sukhoi´s "Su-47" were intended as new generation fighters, but rather as testbeds for varies technologies that would be required for the developement of the actual 5th generation fighter.....which is ongoing under the "PAK-FA" programme lead by Sukhoi ;) .

 

How it will compare to the F-22 and F-35 or which it will resemble most remains to be seen....in 2012 or so :).

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[TucksonSonny]

Raptor's top speed is classified, but test pilots have implied it is capable of 2x the speed of sound. Most high end jet fighters have speed limits that are thermally and/or structural based, rather than a fault of the engines. This aircraft's airframe and engine efficiency would probably allow it to go at least as fast as an F-15 if you didn't care about expensive damage, especially to the vectoring nozzles in the back. You don't want to spend much time significantly above mach 2, whether it's an F-15, Su-27, or F-22. In real life you'd cause a severe amount of stress on a Su-27 flying at mach 2.3 for 60nm. Suddenly its low servicing requirements go right out the window, not to mention in real life your fuel is vanishing. The F-15 has soft limits implimented to prevent pilots from doing that. That was likely one reason why Boeing had such a hard-on for making their JSF out of thermoplastics, that and a bunch of other classified stuff they'd like to do with those materials. And the fact that Raptor could accelerate with afterburner to get above the tropopause much faster than you could (much better engine response and climb efficiency) and then sustain mach 1.5 at much higher altitudes than you could for essentially indefinite periods means its ground speed and range values are far exceeding any other aircraft, including your lowly Su-27. And like I said before, its top speed is a secret. Mach 1.52 is simply the the ratio to the speed of sound its airframe and engines perform at their most efficient at around 44,000 ft. Thats a true speed of over 915kts that it can continue with for 5000nm of flight without ever refueling. Add refueling at some point prior to the engagement or on the way back after its killed you and that's even longer. It can sustain level flight with MIL power at even higher alts, and with AB even higher still. With just MIL power alone it can reach mach 1.9 and semi-sustain 50,000 ft. That's 1150kts without any AB still. If you compare true airspeed (ground speeds), the Rapter is not at any disadvantage speed-wise even based on public information. Even with a very conservative top speed with soft limiting of, say, Mach 2.1 (it probably just can't reach 2x the speed of sound without AB)...or just under that, Raptor can still semi-sustain that with afterburner, some mild zoom climbing, and significantly exceed 50,000ft. That's over 1250kts TAS, and with its altitude the kenematic-induced range of its weapons, things do not look good for your lowly Sukoi. And adding the efficiency and sustaining ability at slightly lower flight level & TAS makes its capabilities just plain mindboggling. Like I said, try comparing the aircraft performance of Total Air War to Janes F-15. Both are very accurate representations of each aircraft and you can see just what an advantage it is. Oh, and that difficulty for a conventional fully loaded jet fighter just to sustain mach speeds above 20,000ft is realistic in the Janes sim. All that drag turns the F-15E into a pig, making it difficult just keep up with a tanker. The C and the Su-27's with AA loads are certainly an improvement, but no where near what a Raptor can do. And a Su-27 loaded with a strike package starts encountering some of those same issues as the Strike Eagle (E).

 

 

 

Oh and the difference between mach 2.3 and mach 2.1 (again, a conservative top speed) is only 133kts. So your aircraft would only get a small lead, then would have to drop its speed and altitude way down. When you throttle down, the F-22 only has to drop to 44,000ft and mach 1.5 to get the best fuel efficiency possible for it and will easily overtake you kenematically. And that's with a conservative top speed based on public info. Even if it's capable of it, though, there's really no reason to stress the aircraft beyond mach 2.1. You're just as dead either way and there's no point increasing the post flight servicing costs on our Raptor tailing you. Hence the soft limits that test pilots said are in place on the F-22.

 

 

Ok, but a 5th generation Su combat aircraft with new engines could do it without stress.

(Still under development of course)

An Su-27M has begun flying with AL-41F1 engines. First flight was some time ago.

The original Al-41F engine which was designed to let the Mig-1.44 supercruise at mach 1.66 could be used for the Su-27.

With the original spec AL-41 the Flanker should supercruise to Mach 2 with a minimum load.

AL-41F1 is supposed to be 140kN (31473lb), according to the Jane's MAKS 2003 report, and AL-41F is 175kN (almost 40,000lb).

[GGTharos]

Sure, but a '5th generation Su' doesn't exist. The whole point isn't really wetehr the performance will be matched - unquestionably, it will be.

 

The point is, they're 10 years late ... again.

[sumoscouse]

?? you're trying to compare real life against a sim???

:rolleyes:

 

It will take another 10 years before a competing nation can come close to this bird..

Just like the F15.. it took 10 years before 27 was rolled out (and 29 a few years later?)

 

We come out with a AIM9 ...and a few weeks later.. voila...another country has it..

Dam..we come out with a Chevy and the chinese will copy it.....exactly.

 

I'm not saying the usa comes out with everything then everyone copies it.. but jeez...

comparing a game that's not even right and compare it to reality?

 

 

 

This is Only because America recruits all the best Scientists and Brain Nerds from other parts of the world - pays them TOP DOLLAR and tells them to keep Schtum

 

AH REST MA CASE DARLIN

[192nd_Erdem]

I'm thinking,after USA finished buying all her 150 million dollar F-22's,Russia will come with something that really surprasses F-22 and USA won't be able to catch it with upgrading,but will have to make and buy a new design.That would be a true disaster. :)

 

It will take another 10 years before a competing nation can come close to this bird..

Just like the F15.. it took 10 years before 27 was rolled out (and 29 a few years later?)

 

How many year did F-15 take to roll out when USA learned about Mig-25 and pissed their pants? :)

 

Never one nation was "ahead" of the other,it's just you do better they do better,and you have to make better than "better" and they have to make better than your "better better"... :)

[GGTharos]

I'm thinking,after USA finished buying all her 150 million dollar F-22's,Russia will come with something that really surprasses F-22 and USA won't be able to catch it with upgrading,but will have to make and buy a new design.That would be a true disaster. :)

 

That's what we call a 'wet dream'.

 

How many year did F-15 take to roll out when USA learned about Mig-25 and pissed their pants? :)

 

The MiG-25 was built as a knee-jerk reaction to the XB-70 which never entered service. The really funny thing is that the F-15 ended up being a much better aircraft overall, and only lacked speed and altitude performance in comparison to the 25 - the 25's systems on the other hand sucked.

 

Never one nation was "ahead" of the other,it's just you do better they do better,and you have to make better than "better" and they have to make better than your "better better"... :)

 

I disagree. ;) The US was always ahead in eletronics, which translated directly to combat performance. And now, they're the only ones with a real stealth fighter ... or two.

[S77th-konkussion]

I'm thinking,after USA finished buying all her 150 million dollar F-22's,Russia will come with something that really surprasses F-22 and USA won't be able to catch it with upgrading,but will have to make and buy a new design.That would be a true disaster. :)

 

 

 

How many year did F-15 take to roll out when USA learned about Mig-25 and pissed their pants? :)

 

Never one nation was "ahead" of the other,it's just you do better they do better,and you have to make better than "better" and they have to make better than your "better better"... :)

 

:p :p :p

 

 

 

LMAO.

[BladeLWS]

I'm thinking,after USA finished buying all her 150 million dollar F-22's,Russia will come with something that really surprasses F-22 and USA won't be able to catch it with upgrading,but will have to make and buy a new design.That would be a true disaster. :)

 

 

 

How many year did F-15 take to roll out when USA learned about Mig-25 and pissed their pants? :)

 

Never one nation was "ahead" of the other,it's just you do better they do better,and you have to make better than "better" and they have to make better than your "better better"... :)

LMAO

 

There's my laugh for the day...

[TucksonSonny]

This is Only because America recruits all the best Scientists and Brain Nerds from other parts of the world - pays them TOP DOLLAR and tells them to keep Schtum

 

AH REST MA CASE DARLIN

 

This year a couple of Belgium brain nerds were returning home and complaining about how things are changing in the US lately. Actually they are better paid in Europe at the moment.

[Weta43]

That maybe, but pretty much money spent = power & the US are the ones spending the money - & will be for the foreseeable future (till China stops lending them money)

[Pilotasso]

This year a couple of Belgium brain nerds were returning home and complaining about how things are changing in the US lately. Actually they are better paid in Europe at the moment.

 

That depends of the original countries standards of living. For example any scientist from a backwards country in crisis (in just about every level) like mine, there wont be anyone complaining. ;)

[Kula66]

That is exactly what I was going to say as well! Su-27 is now 25-30 year old design right? You can not compare that with F-22.

 

Of course you can compare them ... if there was A2A combat today in US v Russia or China or India (god forbid) - that's exactly what would flying. It is the only comparison that matters!

[D-Scythe]

Of course you can compare them ... if there was A2A combat today in US v Russia or China or India (god forbid) - that's exactly what would flying. It is the only comparison that matters!

 

Maybe that's why you can't compare them - the F-22 is gonna kill so many of them so quickly that the comparison won't even be worth it ;)

 

I'm just hoping that just as much money goes into F-22 pilot training as into the Raptor program itself. These are gonna be the guys busting the gates down for everyone else. With all the hype around it, it's gonna look horrible if even one is shot down.

[Kula66]

Remember its only got 6 AMRAAMs ... and if they are like the LO versions, they easy to dodge! (sarcasm).

[Caretaker]

The real question for me is still, is the F-22 l33t enough so that it could even kill an F-22...? :p

[Spad]

An RAF Typhoon F2 locked an F22 at 80miles for a missile shot!

[Cobra360]

An RAF Typhoon F2 locked an F22 at 80miles for a missile shot!

 

Really now, please tell us more.

 

The Typhoon has never left Europe except to go for trials in Singapore for their fighter competition and the F-22 has never flown outside US airspace. So unless the Atlantic Ocean has shrunk by 2,000 miles, I can't see how that event ever happened.

[TucksonSonny]

Maybe that's why you can't compare them - the F-22 is gonna kill so many of them so quickly that the comparison won't even be worth it ;)

 

I'm just hoping that just as much money goes into F-22 pilot training as into the Raptor program itself. These are gonna be the guys busting the gates down for everyone else. With all the hype around it, it's gonna look horrible if even one is shot down.

 

 

What if the F/A-22 just can waste his AMRAAMs and can’t hit anything (there is still no single Su shot down by an AMRAAM).

You just live in a different world: Upgraded Su-27s/Su30s and a lot of Mig-21s R77 capable operating in a hostile SA-10 environment (Comparing them ... if there was A2A combat today in US v Russia or China or India (god forbid)).

F/A-22 squadrons are still not ready to take a country like Iran. If they were ready then they would be already in the region.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Really now, please tell us more.

 

The Typhoon has never left Europe except to go for trials in Singapore for their fighter competition and the F-22 has never flown outside US airspace. So unless the Atlantic Ocean has shrunk by 2,000 miles, I can't see how that event ever happened.

 

Hehe...I would like to see more about this incident as well. If it happened, I'm betting that the Raptor had its reflectors mounted, which won't be there on the aircraft in combat.

[GGTharos]

What if the F/A-22 just can waste his AMRAAMs and can’t hit anything (there is still no single Su shot down by an AMRAAM).

You just live in a different world: Upgraded Su-27s/Su30s and a lot of Mig-21s R77 capable operating in a hostile SA-10 environment (Comparing them ... if there was A2A combat today in US v Russia or China or India (god forbid)).

 

F/A-22 squadrons are still not ready to take a country like Iran. If they were ready then they would be already in the region.

 

Because 'no single Su' was put in that position yet.

 

What makes you think you can just ignore stealth and the confusion it'll create? ;) Ther won't me much wasting of AMRAAMs.

[D-Scythe]

What if the F/A-22 just can waste his AMRAAMs and can’t hit anything (there is still no single Su shot down by an AMRAAM).

 

Do you really think AMRAAMs IRL are like they are in Lock On? This missile has by far the highest PK record of any other missile in existence so far, you realize this right?

 

You just live in a different world: Upgraded Su-27s/Su30s and a lot of Mig-21s R77 capable operating in a hostile SA-10 environment (Comparing them ... if there was A2A combat today in US v Russia or China or India (god forbid)).

 

Um...that's what the F-22 was designed to do - go where no other fighter has gone, to do what no other fighter can do.

 

F/A-22 squadrons are still not ready to take a country like Iran. If they were ready then they would be already in the region.

 

Yes, I suppose U.S. forces can take on the task of policing Iraq and fighting Iran. War isn't cheap you know.

[Pilotasso]

 

 

Yes, I suppose U.S. forces can take on the task of policing Iraq and fighting Iran. War isn't cheap you know.

 

If anything will hapen to iran it will probably be Osiraq take 2. That could be even undertaken by the israelis. No need for th US to intervene. Except for intelligence.

[Guest IguanaKing]

Well...if something like that happens, the Israelis certainly have a much less hostile area to traverse now.

[Cobra360]

But somehow I don't think eight F-15s and 8 F-16s will cut it this time, looking at the SAM systems Iran now has in place. That was a very gutsy sortie the Israeli's pulled off against the Osiraq plant.