what to expect from Su-27 module?

[FlankerNation]

This what I am also trying to Say.... I think :-S

 

That accuracy is a spectrum is not in doubt, but seriously, the base numbers in any pamphlet, no matter how accurate in themselves, are only a tiny part of the story of making an accurate flight model, otherwise it would be a case of inserting a few publicaly available numbers into your ACME flight model generator. At best, we could take an SU27 model and modify it a bit, but we'd still be left with a caricature of an SU 35.

 

Any fool with the right knowledge can make a model which obeys the laws of physics enough to fool a casual observer, but it takes real skill (and access) to create a model which captures all the nuances which make an aircraft type unique.

 

I have the same problem with the 35/SM as I have with the latest American über-jets, if so much has to be made up/assumed, why would I bother putting the effort in to learn them? I'm not massive A10 nut, but the opportunity to learn the REAL operations makes it worth the effort, and frankly, if it's not going to provide that insight, I'd rather play them balanced for fun, at which point I might as well play Ace Combat...

 

But, with all these things, that's my view and your mileage may vary. :thumbup:

 

Cheers,

 

Jamie

 

 

My point is that I don't know how I will try to explain is that ED already has the data on the 27s model so what I trying to say is just tweak it with the brochure or and other info on net or else where.

 

For Example: How A/G smart weapons are shown in Flanker 1.00 Dos version meaning how you procedures to use A/G weapons Flanker 1.00 and embed them with the current model or just merge the current su27s info that ED has and the data of Su35s from brochure ( or any other source ) and assume only 25 to 50 % how the other stuff works and make Semi-AFM module out of it... Simple

 

I know it will not be accurate... but we know even in A-10c and F-15c that ED has made something are kept classified and secret and don't know about.

 

So, please in the same way whatever... I mean whatever data or info that is available, from that create a reasonable accurate model of the Modern Flanker.

 

I know that Su35s brochure ( or any other source ) doesn't have the full info but whatever it is we can start on that and whatever we don't have we can model it on assumption until we get it right.

 

Also when I say assuming anything so it shouldn't be all out assumption just a assume reasonable to an extent that is possible and practical so you can know the difference between an Arcade game and Simulator.

 

I think CG and other Ed moderator was also pointing this.... I think this what I understand.

[FlankerNation]

MTF !

 

And at what speed are you going to try a cobra..., to foul a doppler radar?

 

From what i believe, if you're slow enough to do the cobra in safe conditions, there's no doppler radar to foul! If you're fast enough, and of course, flying perpendicular (beam position) to the doppler radar's wave and also at an optimum range from the radar, in order to make it lagg/lose the signal for only a few seconds:P (so you ain't going to win much, except yes..., if there's already a missile in the air flying in SARH mode (SARH also applies to active radar homing missiles, until they are close enough to turn on their own radar and become active), thus you can brake it's lock for a moment and defeat it), you will definitely have to be at a higher true airspeed and indicated airspeed, than the maximum allowed for cobra (either the pilot will die from high G or the plane will be torn apart)!

 

I might be wrong about this..., yet there might also be a bit of truth.

 

 

Cheers, good day!

 

And some says that a banned legend played with you who used to do lots of MTF ! strikes..... ;) I wonder where is he right now. (people ignore this... this off topic and relate to some other simulation world thing).

[Flying Penguin]

I'll reply in full later, can't really reply on my phone, but it looks like the Italian forum just heard the news:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=111853

 

" combattimenti ad armi pari... Ma vaff...." Needs no translation :D

Edited August 20, 2013 by Flying Penguin

[FlankerNation]

I'll reply in full later, can't really reply on my phone, but it looks like the Italian forum just heard the news:

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=111853

 

" combattimenti ad armi pari... Ma vaff...." Needs no translation :D

 

Hehehe..... :D well, I use the thread with Google Translator and the Italians are not happy about the news... well it shows that not only me a Flanker fan is alone on this.... I don't know but people have passion for this plane... THE SU27 FLANKER.

[sereupin]

Didn't we already have this

in the 1990's?

 

 

1996 --> 2013

 

to notice the MFD.. it's looks like what we use today in fc3 :doh:

[karambiatos]

1996 --> 2013

 

to notice the MFD.. it's looks like what we use today in fc3 :doh:

 

its better it has air to ground modes, and tells you the type of aircraft your locking onto with the radar.

[GGTharos]

It was also incorrect :)

 

There's no NCTR feature onboard that radar, and there were no suck A2G capabilities.

 

The Su-27SM series cockpits look completely different.

[karambiatos]

It was also incorrect :)

 

There's no NCTR feature onboard that radar, and there were no suck A2G capabilities.

 

The Su-27SM series cockpits look completely different.

 

it was a joke

[Pilotasso]

Ignoring the fact that a sim based on warplanes, and thus war itself, neither side intends to fight on a level playing field. With the US basically spending a gross amount funds on military advancements, specifically to be ahead of the enemy as much as it can. You whine a lot about the 120C, but you and most of your squad still make out alright on your server. Sure from time to time F-15s are on the top of the board, but none of them are noobs that are there just by being in an F-15 with the 120C. Realistically more Russian hardware has likely been against the 120C than the American counter-parts have had to face the R-77 in actual combat. You still have a decisive advantage with IR weapons and WVR combat, but it still takes an effective pilot to make any of it work as desired (barring server lag).

 

For example, I flew on your server last night where F-15 could only get 120B, and only from one airfield, and AIM-7 and 9s from the rest. I don't particularly mind being limited to 120B, though I call 'shenanigans' on them being in a single location, but made it work. Finished like 13-4 before the server crashed.

 

Great post...

[manfrez01]

After the video was created, it has decided not to develop the Su-27SM in favor of the Su-27S.

 

 

just saying:D

[Steph]

SU 27 S (SK for export) for DCS ? Yes, would be good...

I prefer the old pit...

 

[rextar]

:joystick:Dynamic vortices.....

[Pelmo]

Flyng Penguin, you do not need to translate what I have written.;)

 

We all know that we Italians are people with a strong temperament.. And when we learn of bad news..

 

We were very disappointed with this decision that the ED has opted for the S version instead as previously announced version of SM.

 

The road taken by the ED is not fair!

The ED should definitely get to work to balance the forces in the field!

Come on, guys..

The next module is the DCS F-18C then surely follow the DCS F-15C.

And as for the Russian faction?

First will come the DCS module Mig-21 and then follow the DCS Su-27S..

There seems to be a thing balanced?

At this rate, I should not wonder if the ED announce the module DCS F-16C

And what to offer for the Russian side? Certainly not a DCS MiG-29S but we put ourselves at the controls of an old-fashioned Mig-29A .. Want to bet?

 

How do you have to fight on equal when on the one hand there are aircraft like the F-18C and the other Mig-21? .. Come on!

Rebalanced factions and soon!

Edited August 20, 2013 by Pelmo

[Frostie]

For example, I flew on your server last night where F-15 could only get 120B, and only from one airfield, and AIM-7 and 9s from the rest. I don't particularly mind being limited to 120B, though I call 'shenanigans' on them being in a single location, but made it work. Finished like 13-4 before the server crashed.

Call shenanigans all you like, I made that change to a version of that mission after calls for GCI and AWACS must haves or R-77 on Flankers to combat the constant stream of high flying F-15's with 8 AIM-120's. Instead I chose to try something different so shoot me, you will notice it is labelled '90's version' representing a brief period in the early 90's, the AIM-120C is available from Sukhumi, Batumi, and from Tbilsi all in increasing amounts of stockpile the further from the front line. If you want to take an F-15 from Gudauta then you will have to take AIM-7 some like a challenge and i'm more than happy to take on that challenge when the mood suits. It's simple take it or leave it all options are there for you.

 

Feel free to select an F-15C from Batumi that is loaded with 6 AIM-120C and 2 AIM-9 and return there for rearm, after all this is quite a realistic flight pattern to the combat arena. For the record all airbases have limited supplies that are supplied further from the battlefield, R-77 are not in too high availability for Russia and neither is Kh-58 to reduce the ease of constant attacks on Sukhumi SAM systems etc.

 

I make changes not to benefit any side and I certainly don't pertain to being a pro Red/anti Blue guy, the changes I make are purely for entertainment and making challenging boundaries for all players.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Frostie

[GGTharos]

Balance is not a goal. If you want balance, fly against other Su-27. Su-27SM uses basically the same radar as Su-27S. Regardless of whether it carries R-77 or not, a DCS F-15C will still be an unfair opponent to face.

 

There will never be fighting on equal ground unless you give everyone the same plane with the same weapons.

[GGTharos]

Have you tried programming the SAMs to go 'live' only if there is a bandit inside lethal range? :)

 

For extra realism, you can try tying this behaviour to some EWR being 'alive' or not.

 

Feel free to select an F-15C from Batumi that is loaded with 6 AIM-120C and 2 AIM-9 and return there for rearm, after all this is quite a realistic flight pattern to the combat arena. For the record all airbases have limited supplies that are supplied further from the battlefield, R-77 are not in too high availability for Russia and neither is Kh-58 to reduce the ease of constant attacks on Sukhumi SAM systems etc.

[Pilotasso]

Call shenanigans all you like, I made that change to a version of that mission after calls for GCI and AWACS must haves or R-77 on Flankers to combat the constant stream of high flying F-15's with 8 AIM-120's. Instead I chose to try something different so shoot me, you will notice it is labelled '90's version' representing a brief period in the early 90's, the AIM-120C is available from Sukhumi, Batumi, and from Tbilsi all in increasing amounts of stockpile the further from the front line. If you want to take an F-15 from Gudauta then you will have to take AIM-7 some like a challenge and i'm more than happy to take on that challenge when the mood suits. It's simple take it or leave it all options are their for you.

 

Feel free to select an F-15C from Batumi that is loaded with 6 AIM-120C and 2 AIM-9 and return there for rearm, after all this is quite a realistic flight pattern to the combat arena. For the record all airbases have limited supplies that are supplied further from the battlefield, R-77 are not in too high availability for Russia and neither is Kh-58 to reduce the ease of constant attacks on Sukhumi SAM systems etc.

 

I make changes not to benefit any side and I certainly don't pertain to being a pro Red/anti Blue guy, the changes I make are purely for entertainment and making challenging boundaries for all players.

 

While 8 AMRAAM load is possible I don't advise to take it, because in current status of missiles the 120 is nearly useless up close and its easy to get WVR now. The AIM-9 is actually useful now. :)

[Teknetinium]

Balance is not a goal. If you want balance, fly against other Su-27. Su-27SM uses basically the same radar as Su-27S. Regardless of whether it carries R-77 or not, a DCS F-15C will still be an unfair opponent to face.

 

There will never be fighting on equal ground unless you give everyone the same plane with the same weapons.

 

 

Don't agree. There is plenty aircraft that could stand against each other in a fair fight.

Su-30MKI vs F-15E

Su-34 vs F-15E

Su-27M3 vs F-15E

Su-35 vs F-15E/F-35

 

Su-27S vs F-15C from same timeframe are perfectly comperable as well.

Su-27S+ER-27 vs F-15C+ Aim-120B.

[Frostie]

Have you tried programming the SAMs to go 'live' only if there is a bandit inside lethal range? :)

 

For extra realism, you can try tying this behaviour to some EWR being 'alive' or not.

It's an idea and there are many good ideas but the more complex you make a mission the more DCS 1.2.5 stability issues come into play and right now I have a permanent stinking headache with tweaking missions to suit DisConnect Simulator. :)

[Frostie]

While 8 AMRAAM load is possible I don't advise to take it, because in current status of missiles the 120 is nearly useless up close and its easy to get WVR now. The AIM-9 is actually useful now. :)

I agree, it's not the best choice, Aim-9 and Aim-7 are always needed for certain situations, but a lot of guys like to load up with 8 120C and fire salvos in >1 minute then RTB for more, with resource implemented this vibe will have to change.

[GGTharos]

How do you think any one of these constitute a 'fair fight'?

 

Without going into the newer aircraft, Su-27S vs F-15C any year is already unfair to the Su-27S. I know you don't see this in the game, but the EW battlefield is not at all modeled - you either outnumber or ambush the eagles, or you suffer through having an electronically inferior aircraft in BVR. I wouldn't call that fair. This all without involving 'extra assets'.

 

Don't agree. There is plenty aircraft that could stand against each other in a fair fight.

Su-30MKI vs F-15E

Su-34 vs F-15E

Su-27M3 vs F-15E

Su-35 vs F-15E/F-35

 

Su-27S vs F-15C from same timeframe are perfectly comperable as well.

Su-27S+ER-27 vs F-15C+ Aim-120B.

[GGTharos]

Ah, I see. One of these days hopefully this radar behaviour will become standard, so you won't need triggers for it etc. :)

 

It's an idea and there are many good ideas but the more complex you make a mission the more DCS 1.2.5 stability issues come into play and right now I have a permanent stinking headache with tweaking missions to suit DisConnect Simulator. :)

[Pilotasso]

Don't agree. There is plenty aircraft that could stand against each other in a fair fight.

Su-30MKI vs F-15E

Su-34 vs F-15E

Su-27M3 vs F-15E

Su-35 vs F-15E/F-35

 

Su-27S vs F-15C from same timeframe are perfectly comperable as well.

Su-27S+ER-27 vs F-15C+ Aim-120B.

 

none of those fighters would be comparable, neither is the ER comparable to the 120B. The later is still better.

 

There is not much of a difference between a 120B and a 120C ingame either.

[Flying Penguin]

Flyng Penguin, you do not need to translate what I have written.;)

 

We all know that we Italians are people with a strong temperament.. And when we learn of bad news..

 

As someone who speaks zero Italian, I thought it was a beautiful turn of phrase which got your point across perfectly, irrespective of language :D

[Teknetinium]

none of those fighters would be comparable, neither is the ER comparable to the 120B. The later is still better.

 

There is not much of a difference between a 120B and a 120C ingame either.

 

How do you think any one of these constitute a 'fair fight'?

 

Without going into the newer aircraft, Su-27S vs F-15C any year is already unfair to the Su-27S. I know you don't see this in the game, but the EW battlefield is not at all modeled - you either outnumber or ambush the eagles, or you suffer through having an electronically inferior aircraft in BVR. I wouldn't call that fair. This all without involving 'extra assets'.

 

 

I respect your opinion but I dont shere it whit you, Like you are saying Russian airforce would have a diffrent approche where no one can for sure say if it would end up in BVR or in WVR.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Teknetinium