SEAD w/SU-25T: SAM trouble

[timmer1978]

Hello,

I've only been playing for about a week now and have ran into a problem regarding SAM's, specifically the ones in the single player Command Post mission. I don't have a problem taking out the first 2 or 3 SAM's as they "paint" me quite a ways out.

 

My problem is after I've killed 2 or 3 targets, the rest don't target me until I'm within 10km of the base, by then it's too late for me to avoid their missiles and target them with my weapons. I always wind up in a ball of flames before I can blow up those command posts :cry: How am I supposed to take out SAM sites that don't "paint" me until I'm almost right over them?

 

Thanks for any help!

 

- Tim

[GRUNT -Shrek-]

Hi there, sounds like a mission to try in Multiplayer. Can you give more informations to the mission (filename, standard or 3rd party installed), so I can have a look at it?

Basically you have to determine the type of thread, if you know what's down below, you can develop a strategy against it (in training missions) like 4,000m AGL against IR SAM Strela and Igla. Or diving weeds against a HAWK battery.

Tim, I do fly 1.2.6 SU-25A and if needed maybe 1.2.4. Just check our homepage: www.shreksquadron.org come to our TS-Server and ask for GRUNT-

[HiJack]

Can you post the track?

[Kaktus29]

i hope DCS develops the ground control of SAM infrastructure more..it will be a blast playing it in multiplayer.. SAMs waiting with turned off radars in total passive mode, and only AWACS and mobile EW giving and updating the picture every so often and then even them turning it off.. creating ambush zones for incoming CAP, Superiority planes would complicate the first round of action very much for everyone..

 

aaa, one can dream...

[maturin]

You're talking about the Buk, probably. It's just a damned hard nut to crack.

[timmer1978]

Thank you everyone for your replies. It's the standard single player mission available for SU-25T. Thanks for the invite Grunt, I'll check out your TS3 server :thumbup:

 

Yes, they are the BUK SAM sites. I've attached the track file of the mission, and the mission itself. The problem comes after I've bombed the command post. I'm just wondering why I can't use my ELINT pod to target them, but they keep shooting at my allied wingmen. I guess I'm just lucky that they didn't target me? Not sure why.

 

What are some strategies for when your elint pod can't give you a valid emitter to lock on to with your missiles? Does it depend on the particular type of SAM site? Unfortunately, the encyclopedia in the game doesn't give much info in the way of exploiting SAM sites.

Su-25T - Command post strike.miz

command center strike.trk

[159th_Viper]

I'm just wondering why I can't use my ELINT pod to target them, but they keep shooting at my allied wingmen..

 

They are TELAR vehichles, ie they have their own radar capable of autonomous tracking, targeting and engagement.

 

Bottom-line: Destroy the radar with ARM's and thereafter destroy launcher TELARs with Vikhrs.

[maturin]

The TELARs will kill you before you get close enough to use your Vikhrs, though. Or at least they have that capability. Buk sites have become more diffident in later patches.

 

Note that you can lock a BUK launcher with the ELINT, but only after there is a telephone pole-sized missile streaking towards you at Mach whatever.

[esb77]

Buk killing advice:

 

The search radar will light up at fairly long ranges and can be hit with a Kh-58 quite reliably, provided that they don't turn off and move after you launch. On occasion a Kh-58 launched from very high or very low altitude will manage to miss on its own in a cluttery environment when launched from max range. I usually fire one Kh-58 when I'm at about 80% of max range and that usually does the trick.

 

The launchers have variable behavior depending on skill level. Sometimes they do continuous transmission in which case they are easy kills for Kh-58s or Kh-25MPUs. Other times they will shut down after the SR unit is killed and not fire up again until you are well within engagement range. I've gotten as close as 3 km at times. If your only tools are ARMs and the Phantasmorgia pod the 'silent mode' behavior gives the BUK a very high kill probability on you if you get too close. There are a couple of ways to deal with this.

 

Stay away. Stay far enough away and they will never hit you. You may not complete the mission, but you won't get shot down by a BUK. Russia could only afford 8 Su-25Ts, that was the entire production run. Presumably your commander will be pleased that you didn't get shot down, after all, that's what the much cheaper regular Su-25s are for.

 

Mixed payload, spotting, and craftiness. Instead of a pure ARM loadout for SEAD swap out 1 - 3 Kh-25MPUs for Kh-25MLs. If you have good visual spotting and know exactly where the launchers are this gives you enough standoff range to have a fighting chance at winning the engagement. Using terrain masking or coming around to hit them from behind can help tilt the odds in your favor. Also try to engage at max range, pre zoom your Shkval, turn your laser on, and if you don't get a good lineup at max range break off and try again.

 

Flirtation. Fly around at the edge of their engagement range, and try to get them to fire all of their missiles at you where you can easily outmaneuver them. The standard BUK group has 3 launchers with 4 missiles each. So after 12 missiles have been dodged you can (hopefully) run in and have your way with them, because in game they don't reload very quickly.

 

Insanity. Reduce altitude until you're skimming the ground and push throttle to at least 95%. Follow terrain and building masking in until you can engage with guns or rockets. Assuming that you don't crash this can work if you have truly amazing gunnery skills.

[XtraChrisP]

... So after 12 missiles have been dodged you can (hopefully) run in and have your way with them...

 

:D I love how casually you advise him to dodge 12 missiles. Childs play, really :thumbup:

[timmer1978]

Buk killing advice:

....There are a couple of ways to deal with this.

 

Stay away. Stay far enough away and they will never hit you. You may not complete the mission, but you won't get shot down by a BUK.

 

I'm going to assume your kidding here. I wouldn't load the mission if I didn't want to complete it.

 

 

Mixed payload, spotting, and craftiness. Instead of a pure ARM loadout for SEAD swap out 1 - 3 Kh-25MPUs for Kh-25MLs. If you have good visual spotting and know exactly where the launchers are this gives you enough standoff range to have a fighting chance at winning the engagement. Using terrain masking or coming around to hit them from behind can help tilt the odds in your favor.

 

Thanks for the tip. I don't know much about the weapons yet, but it looks like the range for the 25MLs is 10KM. It's better than the 5KM or less range on my other guided bombs/missiles. If I read correctly the BUK's range is 32km, so I'd be vulnerable for quite some time before I got close enough to use them. How effective is continuous chaff dispense at tricking BUK's at 10-12Km? Can you fire these outside 10Km with any reliability by using launch override?

[esb77]

As far as the Kh-25ML goes max, range is about 12km if you're going fast and and 1500 or more meters AGL. It is much better at hitting from max range than the Vhikrs are. The BUK uses radar missiles, and I believe that they're semi-active, which means you have to be illuminated by radar for them to guide.

 

To get close enough to use a 25ML you first have to kill the search radar, which can do target illumination out to very long distances. Once that is dead the missile depends on the launcher's built in radar, which has a range of something like 10-15 km. So if dealing with launchers only you have a chance, because the missile only works if you are lit up by a radar unit.

 

In fact if the launcher activates and fires on you after you have launched you're still ok as long as: a) your missile hits first and b) you maneuver enough so that you're not where the missile's inertial guidance system expects you to be after it looses the launcher's radar illumination. (this assumes only one launcher is illuminating you )

 

Getting outside of visual range and flying around to the side or behind the launchers also exploits the radar dependency of the missiles. If the turret of the launcher is pointed away from you, the radar is also pointed away from you and you can get as close as you want to without worrying about missiles. I've killed a launcher with guns once doing this. When I was attacking I thought it had fired all its missiles shooting down my wingman, this was not some sort of brilliance on my part. Even with the Shkval's magnification it's very hard to figure out which way the turrets are pointing without cheating by using the enemy vehicle camera views.

 

If the skill level of the launcher is high enough they may do 'visual' spotting and turn the turret in your direction, then turn on the radar and shoot you down. A note on this, if you fire a missile its smoke trail is like a giant sign saying, "HEY, THERE'S A MILITARY PLANE HERE!" So if there's more than one launcher that you're trying to kill with laser guided munitions go evasive and approach from a new direction after each missile you launch hits.

 

This raises the question of how do you tell which way the launcher is pointing? The best answer is to play multiplayer and have a ground observer get close enough to tell you. In single player the options for Russian faction are to use ground camera views, or to just pick a direction and hope you get lucky. ( In the 2008 war the Georgians relied heavily on the 'just pick a direction and range' method of spotting. In general it does not work very well. Actually it usually doesn't work at all. ) If the BUK operator AI is totally incompetent, all the launchers will face your initial approach heading, making it very easy for you to get outside visual range (fly low and about 15 km away) and come around to hit them from behind. Well managed BUK units will have each launcher cover one sector of the sky and will be very difficult to sneak up on. Fast, low, and masked by terrain is your best bet for approach, and then hope that you can get back out of range before the other launchers turn in your direction.

 

Lots of practice at missile evasion also helps. If you're low and close the best bet is to try to run the missiles into the ground. Flankertraining.com has a good video on missile evasion including how to do this. I also tend to operate on the theory that high tension power lines and towers should provide confusing signatures for the radar. Not sure if it really works in game, but gives you some idea of what I mean when I say flying a low approach. As far as going over or under the wires, it's your choice, over is usually a bit safer in terms of avoiding collisions but under should get you closer to the radar horizon.

 

There's another post I made after I had flown for about a month that contains some more about SAM evasion http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=110779 . The Georgian oil war campaign can be pretty painful until you learn to deal with the passive SAM installations.

Edited September 23, 2013 by esb77

[esb77]

Actually I was only partially kidding about staying away. Depending on how much Simulation/Game ratio you want to operate on having the pilot decide to scratch the mission is a potentially valid option. I suppose it partially depends on how much you object to getting shot down and how you think your command will react to failing to achieve the mission objective.

 

I read a history of the 2008 Georgian war and the Georgians had a total of 1, count 'em 1 aviation strike that hit any targets at all. That was with all aircraft and all sorties. On the second or third day they decided that aircraft were expensive, pilots didn't want to die, and so they hid all their aircraft and didn't fly for the remainder of the war.

 

The Russians did much better in terms of mission completion, depending on the standard you use you could call it something like 50 to 70%. They also lost 6 aircraft and several aircrew. Three or four, including all 3 of the Su 25s were shot down by the Russian Army and South Ossetian forces being assisted by Russian 'advisors'. One airplane may or may not have been hit by Georgian air defenses, they claim they hit it, the Russians claim that they didn't shoot it down, the historian who looked at the evidence thinks that probably the Georgians shot at it, but the Russians shot it down. The remainder of aircraft losses didn't involve shooting.

 

There have been times when I have done part of a mission, and then decided to RTB to pick up a strike package with more serious SEAD firepower. The mission editor can give even a low ranking pilot an astonishing amount of command authority :thumbup:. Four Su-25TMs with full SEAD loads flying three minutes ahead of you? Not a problem. No complaints about the cost of guided munitions either.

 

Also keep in mind that a real strike pilot would normally have hundreds to a thousand or more flight hours in various trainers before piloting a strike aircraft. A Su-25T pilot would also have at least hundreds of hours in a regular Su-25 and hopefully a few hundred hours in the T variant. Adjust your expectations about what a rookie virtual pilot should be expected to accomplish accordingly.

[maturin]

( In the 2008 war the Georgians relied heavily on the 'just pick a direction and range' method of spotting. In general it does not work very well. Actually it usually doesn't work at all. )

Could you explain in more detail what you're talking about here?

[esb77]

Could you explain in more detail what you're talking about here?

 

My sarcastic way of saying that the Georgian Army in the 2008 war was so poorly trained that they didn't do any spotting for artillery and airstrikes.

 

They mostly just put ammunition in, pointed the heavy guns more or less in the direction of Russia and fired. They missed.

 

The Russians used spotters, their artillery and airstrikes didn't always hit, but they hit often enough to make it a big victory for them. This difference in ability to gather battlefield intelligence and use it effectively is part of why the Georgians lost so badly. Based on the amount of hardware they had bought they expected to either scare the Russians off or hurt them badly enough to make them retreat. Due to poor training (like inability to do proper spotting) their very expensive equipment also turned out to be very useless equipment.

 

What I was getting at in the post is that for a realistic situation you would hope to have a ground spotter on the radio to tell you how the BUK launchers are set up and which headings they are facing. Unfortunately that sort of thing is pretty hard to code in a way that comes off well, though they do have some AI forward observer capability available for NATO aligned factions. Nothing for Russian forces yet though.