Mod on servers?

[SESova]

Hello everyone.

Afther so many patches,changes...we can see that situation with missiles reamin more-less,the same.AIM 120C still remain out of the physics lows.

So,eny squadron wich have server,are you interested to install the mod that will lead to real opportunities missile bases?

[Pilotasso]

All missiles are underperforming kinetically and Chaff rejection. The 120 is easy do dodge if/when you know its coming.

 

I still see a lot of complaints about it but its not the missile that is too good, its due to absence of warning due to limited coverage of on-board warning systems.

 

Modding missiles to change them IMHO is a bad idea because each server will have its own, youll never know what to count on.

Edited September 21, 2013 by Pilotasso

[SESova]

All missiles are underperforming kinetically and Chaff rejection. The 120 is easy do dodge if/when you know its coming.

 

I still see a lot of complaints about it but its not the missile that is too good, its due to absence of warning due to limited coverage of on-board warning systems.

 

Modding missiles to change them IMHO is a bad idea because each server will have its own, youll never know what to count on.

 

No, I have in mind a single mode for all servers, generally accepted.

[Pilotasso]

No, I have in mind a single mode for all servers, generally accepted.

 

They tried this before with R-77 on Su-27's. A few things happened:

 

1) Pilots who suck kept sucking some more while good pilots kept winning.

2) It caused different servers to either adopt it or ban it. There was no such agreement.

3) It divided the community and broke immersion some more.

 

It is a dangerous assertion to assume what you want is the same what everyone else wants, or that it is realistic.

 

So what will be different this time?

[Pilotasso]

I agree on the 120 being to easy to dodge..

 

 

yeah I bring 6 AMRAAM's and only 2 Sidewinders each flight, and I seem to be hitting same amount of targets with each of these missiles.

 

Should the AMRAAM be even easier to dodge?

[Frostie]

I don't think creating missile mods is going to help anyone, especially such a small community.

 

 

Yet any su pilot knows to barrel roll chaff and then slight defensive with out loosing radar lock on the f15..

Yes and these pilots will die just as often as they avoid these missiles.

Out manuevering a low energy missile is easy for anyone but that would be the F-15's pilots fault not any game mechanic, it stands to reason that if you want to give the bandit less chance you fire in the no escape zone that means getting closer and supporting your missile, still not a guaranteed kill but better than throwing supposed magic sticks out from max range and complaining when they miss.

 

Yet the RU planes have eos which has a wider degree of scan both vert and hor and is passive. With either TS or just looking at the player list can get away with out ever turning on radar to track and shoot the f15 and the f15 will never get anything on RWR of the incoming IR missle fired from +50NM.. Not to mention the fact the RU Rwr can get a rough range..

No it doesn't, the EOS scan doesn't even move off its fixed horizon looking at a meagre 4 degrees on the nose, that equates to about +/-1000m every 15km.

In this scenario the only option to find a higher than you bandit is with the vertical acquisition mode which now requires you to hold down the button for x amount of seconds to lock, this requires you to fly towards the bandit and know his exact position, hardly an auto acquisition mode, anymore. Any F-15 pilot worth his salt will see you nose on desperately trying to acquire him while the holding down the lock button every few seconds like a demented fool.

The IR seeker is limited to less than 10NM so how can you possibly engage a target from 50+NM away with IR missile.

 

Give me the aesa upgrade and datalink along with the aim9x and JHMDS and and the su27 and f15 1on1 will be equal in the game. JMHO

So this would be you whining then, take a tip, get better in an F-15 then you may have earned the right.

[FLANKERATOR]

Any F-15 pilot worth his salt will see you nose on desperately trying to acquire him while the holding down the lock button every few seconds like a demented fool.

 

"Demented fool"...too good:megalol:

[SESova]

I agree on the 120 being to easy to dodge..

 

I hear it all the time of Su/mig pilots bitching a storm about the radar and using the 120's crying about it's "fire n forget"

 

Yet any su pilot knows to barrel roll chaff and then slight defensive with out loosing radar lock on the f15..

 

Yet the RU planes have eos which has a wider degree of scan both vert and hor and is passive. With either TS or just looking at the player list can get away with out ever turning on radar to track and shoot the f15 and the f15 will never get anything on RWR of the incoming IR missle fired from +50NM.. Not to mention the fact the RU Rwr can get a rough range..

 

The other issue is yes the f15 radar can pick up and see a target further then the ru's but Ill be damned if I can get a lock either in STT or TWS before the SU/Mig does with its radar and if they are using EOS before already have an idea altitude and relative position way before the f15..

 

Give me the aesa upgrade and datalink along with the aim9x and JHMDS and and the su27 and f15 1on1 will be equal in the game. JMHO

 

All what you are talking about is not subject off this thread.

And 50+NM kill???? maby in Star wars,not in lock on.Max range off russian missiles is 66 km for R 27ER.But on servers you wont make kill firing over 20km.AESA radars....where did you gone man?Specific type of plane and missiles are modeled in the game,we must stay in that area.

 

@Pilotasso

R 77 on Su 27 has nothing with this.

Conflicts in community?If you dont like an server,you dont have to play there.

@ ALL

Lets stay on subject and stop stories abouth EOS,missiles,radars..There is many other threads abouth that.

 

Last time I started thread with this subject for FC 2,many pilots told me situation is poor,I am thinking to stop play this,to shoot down server...but lets wait FC 3,give ED the chance to fix this,and if thay contionue with bad work,we are going to take the action.Nothing better in FC 3,even wors then in FC 2.

Now what are you afraid off?

[Devilman]

the following is a text from a Russian book, that tables data for missiles. the book references military personnel as sources of information but does not specifically say that this data is accurate. in fact It says it may of been lost in some translation.

 

R-27AE

Lengthft(m) 15.68(4.78)

Weight Ib (kg) 772(350.3)

Range mi (km) 50(80.5)

 

R-27EM

Lengthft(m) 15.66 (4.78)

Weight Ib (kg) 772(350.3)

Range mi (km) 50(80.5)

 

R-27RE

Lengthft(m) 15.68(4.78)

Weight Ib (kg) 772(350.3)

Range mi (km) 105.6(170)

 

R-27R

Length ft (m) 13.38 (4.08)

Weight Ib (kg) 558(253)

Range mi (km) 37.26 (60.0)

 

R-27T

Length ft (m) 12.46 (3.80)

Weight Ib (kg) 540(245)

Range mi (km) 12.4(20)

 

R-27TE

Lengthft(m) 14.75(4.5)

Weight Ib (kg) 560 (254)

Range mi (km) 25 (40.26)

 

R-73E

Lengthft(m) 9.51(2.90)

Weight Ib (kg) 230.3 (104.5)

Range mi (km) 24.8(40)

 

R-77(RVV-AE)

Lengthft(m) 11.81(3.60)

Weight Ib (kg) 385(175)

Range mi (km) 62.1(100)

 

R-60M

Length ft (m) 6.86(2.09)

Weight Ib (kg) 95.9(43.5)

Range mi (km) 4.97(8)

 

The wide variation in significant digits

in the original Russian data did not allow a

reasonable choice for a standard presentation.

In all cases, the metric data contains all

the significant digits that are available in the

 

Russian source material.....

 

 

In rare cases, data in the text did not

 

 

 

agree with the tabular data. The authors

made every effort to identify and correct

such discrepancies. However, some examples

remain. Usually, the differences are

small....

[Boberro]

.but lets wait FC 3,give ED the chance to fix this,and if thay contionue with bad work,we are going to take the action.Nothing better in FC 3,even wors then in FC 2.

Now what are you afraid off?

 

Mate, perhaps there is nothing to fix in the way you think it is?

Haven't you fought you may be in error as well?:smilewink:

[SESova]

We spoked with some real life pilots,russian and US plane pilots.They gave us some information that is consistent with information from many dokuments possessing some of the players.Also at Russian part of the forum,there are some people with very good documents.

We players in this debate need to express our interest and squadrons that have servers to apply the mod.

Wich mod,we need to help them about that by providing the documents and informations.

[Pilotasso]

If I had a nickel every time someone says they know pilots...wait I know several too.

 

Im serious, maybe your truth is better than mine or everyone else's...

 

I believe ED also has its share of RL pilots what do you have to offer that is better?

[Mojeaux]

I believe ED also has its share of RL pilots what do you have to offer that is better?

 

Dooh!

 

Baiting again?

[SESova]

If I had a nickel every time someone says they know pilots...wait I know several too.

 

Im serious, maybe your truth is better than mine or everyone else's...

 

I believe ED also has its share of RL pilots what do you have to offer that is better?

Thay do,but dont want to do it right.

[159th_Viper]

Show us these documents this mod is based on. I am surprised that they have not been included in the first post. You cannot expect people to blindly accept your truth.

 

Or is this still in the embryonic stage of development?

[SESova]

I dont say I KNOW,and MY documents are right one.A lots of players have many documents and different sources of informations.

I started this thread only to see what is the mood of the people and to convey squadrons with the server.

My and my friends have allready started thread like this for FC 2 with missile mod,but everybody said "Lets wait for FC 3".FC 3 is there,so..

Edited September 22, 2013 by =SE=Sova

[159th_Viper]

I dont say I KNOW,and MY documents are right one.A lots of players have many documents and different sources of informations.

 

OK

 

.....but surely you are of the opinion that the values in your documents are more correct than the current missile implementation, correct? I mean, why else would you want a mod on servers other than to correct what you/the mod author perceives as default incorrect modelling?

 

Or are you saying that you are not as much interested in which documents are factually correct or not but rather to cater for servers that want to implement a mod that changes the missile dynamics? Again, just how the mod will change missile dynamics has also not been explained at all.

 

You are giving us precious little on which to base an opinion.

[RIPTIDE]

They tried this before with R-77 on Su-27's. A few things happened:

 

1) Pilots who suck kept sucking some more while good pilots kept winning.

True. But good pilots utilized the additional weapon to its maximum.

2) It caused different servers to either adopt it or ban it. There was no such agreement.

AFAIR there were 2 servers which allowed it. The 104th and the -4c-

3) It divided the community and broke immersion some more.

No it didn't. There was some minor complaints resulting from ill informed players flying that used the mod without consultation with the rules of the other servers. I don't believe it was catastrophic.... no more that today when Steam guys come in and start looking for labels and external views. lol

[RIPTIDE]

the following is a text from a Russian book, that tables data for missiles. the book references military personnel as sources of information but does not specifically say that this data is accurate. in fact It says it may of been lost in some translation.

 

R-27AE

Lengthft(m) 15.68(4.78)

Weight Ib (kg) 772(350.3)

Range mi (km) 50(80.5)

 

R-27EM

Lengthft(m) 15.66 (4.78)

Weight Ib (kg) 772(350.3)

Range mi (km) 50(80.5)

 

We don't really know what that range means though. It's just a number. What's the kinetic state when the missile reaches that range for example?

 

Also I don't think the Active AE was fielded. And having flown with the AE mod that was out at the time, the AE was a poor missile.... you could over-G it no problem, just like the AIM-54... just work the RWR.. 9G pull, gone. THat said I'm sure it could be used tactically to give the enemy something to worry about. I remember flying it with friends and IIRC I said it's a waste of a pylon.

[RIPTIDE]

Hello everyone.

Afther so many patches,changes...we can see that situation with missiles reamin more-less,the same.AIM 120C still remain out of the physics lows.

So,eny squadron wich have server,are you interested to install the mod that will lead to real opportunities missile bases?

I find the FC3 AIM-120 far less lethal and versatile than the FC2 version. I have no quantitative information to reinforce that opinion, but it's just an observation.

[Pilotasso]

Agree ^^^^

 

In FC2 it was too agile, FC3 behaves like a heavy missile like AIM-54. I find it hard to use the 120 under 5 miles because it overshoots so much.

 

They got some things wrong. I observed the sidewinder fly with 30 degrees of AOA during turns. It shouldn't do that since the movable fins are at front and it has no thrust vectoring or any other feature that produces down force, the same way I believe the AMRAAM and other missiles have no proper airfoil flow simulated (they all steer by different methods wich should impact how they fly).

 

lets wait and see what ED does next.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Pilotasso

[SESova]

First I want to say thanks all those who participate in the discussion.

Special thanks to 159th Viper.He immediately asked specific questions without any offensive comments.

 

I started this thread to hear opinions the other players and squadrons abouth missile modeling.Shud be corrected by mod or not.And I would like to this thread stay in that frame,opinion.Result of this thread shud be message for squadrons who has server.Missile modeling in FC is hot subject,and I dont want to start fire in here.There is allready thread abouth missiles in FC 3.Most of the complains are there.There is also same thread at russian part of the forum abouth that.So lets not do the same job tvice.

Pilotasso said it is bad idea.

Frostie also said it is bad idea.

My english is so good,so maby I am missing something,but I cant get clear picture abouth 104th standpoint.

Ok ,lets move on.

[104th_Maverick]

Ok ,lets move on.

 

 

Thank you!!!!!!

 

With regards to 104th, we would be happy to entertain R77 on SU27 as we did in FC2 but we are not going to install any missile mod based from information you have 'acquired' that changes missile performance.

 

Good luck!

[GGTharos]

If you actually paid attention to the thread in the Russian forum, you'd realize that no one is certain how exactly to model missiles in game because a lot of information is missing. ED tuned missiles - and although some of the figures are wrong, they are all tuned in such a way as to provide certain ranges.

 

You don't have any documents that show this missing information - I know you don't, because they're not available for public consumption.

 

So my question is, how is your mod going to be better/more realistic than what is in the game already?

[SESova]

;1882918']Thank you!!!!!!

 

With regards to 104th, we would be happy to entertain R77 on SU27 as we did in FC2 but we are not going to install any missile mod based from information you have 'acquired' that changes missile performance.

 

Good luck!

 

Mod does´nt have to be based from informations I have ´acquired'.As I said at the begining I do not want anyone to impose my or someone others work, I'm just giving an idea about what we could get together and worked to.

Maby you guys have some good informations and you can use them to make mod and give us for testing?

Edited September 23, 2013 by =SE=Sova