Landing the Mustang

[Bikerjack]

Sounds logical - thanks

[Tumbleweed]

 

If you have problems with controlling Mustang at these low speeds, take him for a ride to safe altitude, slow down, apply full flaps and gear and try to fly as slow as you can without entering spin. When you are good at this, come back to landings.

 

Good luck :)

 

 

Best advice ever. I suck at landings but I just tried this out at about 5000 feet and maintained around 100 - 110 MPH. Spent about 1o minutes holding the plane like this and then came in and attempted a landing and did a near perfect 3 point landing first time - although I was slightly off center of the runway.

 

:smartass: :thumbup:

[sobek]

Can't dogfight at all yet - that bloody FW190 gets me everytime on the standard Fast Mission. Is there a setting for making the AI more of a novice or is it obvious that I should persevere until I learn to nobble the bastard?

 

You can use your fuel load quite efficiently to even the playing field.

[Echo38]

well, if you are about to land a plane, you will want to controll your speed with your stick, and your descent rate with your throttle...

 

I know a lot of real pilots* do this, but it's still a bad habit. It's just about the opposite of what you need to practice in order to become good at dead-stick landings, and if you're unpracticed in dead-sticking, you're gonna be screwed if you ever lose your engine. Coming in under power, and relying on that power staying on in order to make a safe landing (which is what you're doing when you're using the stick-is-speed-throttle-is-RoC method) gets pilots killed when they unexpectedly lose power.

 

When I was a kid, I knew a guy who took me for a ride in his T-6; a few years later, he died in a P-51 when he lost power on final and didn't have enough airspeed to make the open ground. Ever since then, I hate to see people (real pilots or not) recommend coming in under power and relying on it--which is what people do when they use the throttle to control descent rate. Instead, use both the stick & rudder to control both your speed & descent rate, and that'll teach you good energy management and give you good practice for power-off landings. Power should be used only enough to keep your engine from overcooling, and use a slip to keep yourself from relying on even this small amount of thrust--you want your engine at optimal temp in case you royally bungle your landing and need to go around (in which case you learn so that you can do better next time, with the end goal of never having to rely on power when landing), but you don't want to be counting on any thrust which you might lose.

 

*I believe the habit originated with airliners--when you have that many engines, it's easy to become complacent and rely on always having power. (The traffic patterns probably add to this problem.) And, perhaps, with airliners, it isn't particularly dangerous. But sometimes even airliners suffer complete loss of power, and when this happens, you'd better hope you have a pilot who's practiced at dead-stick landings. The two stories I know of where an airliner had a complete LoP and made it down safely (the "Gimli Glider" accident and the more recent Hudson River ditching), the pilots were glider pilots in addition to airliner pilots. Dead stick? Well, the glide ratio's gonna be different, but other than that, for a glider pilot ... standard! The moral of the story: don't rely on power when landing, especially if you fly single-engine airplanes. Always be ready for a complete LoP. You can't do much about it on takeoff, but you sure as hell can when landing. If you don't bother to practice dead-stick landings, someday you could die early because you didn't.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Echo38

[Manyoces]

Wow, think I'll go practice some more dead stick landings!

 

I usually also need some extra power to reach the threshold, that means there's some room for practice there!!

 

Thanks Echo38

[Spasticatedtoad]

Dead Stick Landing do help quite a bit. I didn't deliberately practice them in the beginning, I couldn't stop blowing up the Engine and was forced to practice them.

The thing that confused me, was that I could land beautifully with the engine out in an emergency, but bounced all over the runway and often broke the gear when trying to land under power.

So I watched some track files of me landing both in dead stick and powered landings. I found if I put the F2 Camera right in front of the plane looking back and watched me flare the plane in both cases. I found that in an emergency, I was flaring later than I was if there was a runway in front of me, and often I would be flying far slower because of no power.

After watching a few of the track files, I was able to leave the flare till much later and also begin my final approach at a slower speed.

Within a short while, I was then able to land, under power and on a runway, with few problems.

 

Watching the track files gave me the chance to pause the Track in several spots and then cycle through the available cameras so I could compare my position to the runway in each. Often, I found that I was happy with my landing, but from the outside, it looks like I was thumping it down. Over time, I was able to smooth it out and frequently do a 3 point landing.

[VTB_Ray]

Some good advice in this thread,

 

As for wheel landings, it's important to maintain enough speed to keep the tail in the air as you're working to touch the mains gently on the ground.

 

The amount of forward stick required to "stick it" is proportional to the sink rate at touch down. The harder you touch down the more downward momentum the tail has and that's trying to rotate the wing and fly/bounce you back into the air.

 

You don't have to hold the foward stick, but a rapid application is needed initially to stop the downward momentum of the tail, once that's arrested you can hold just what you need to keep the tail flying and begin to gently fly it onto the runway as your speed decreases.

 

The key is managing your sink rate and I like to think of it as trying to fly as close as possible to the runway without actually touching it. As I'm slowing the sink rate the stick is moving aft when I touchdown - if I'm "feeling" for the runway too long, an application of power is needed to keep the speed/tail up in order to prevent it from turning into a 3 pointer. I tend to prefer a tail low wheel landing, both in DCS and in real life (Super Cub).

 

In the end it just comes down to practice and developing a feel for it. Actually making the airplane do what you want it to do can be a challenge.

 

I find one wheel landings to be the easiest :D

 

1:20 mark is a wheel landing, and 2:30ish is a 3 pointer. The rest is just a bunch of my crazy flying. That was a very early build, so the FM was a bit different then.

Edited October 4, 2013 by VTB_Ray

[Bikerjack]

Practice needed

 

Been flying CLoD a lot so Haven't been flying in DCS recently but will take on board all the comments in this thread.

 

Thanks all for your input. Practice makes . . . er? . . . nearly good enough but a long way from perfect!!:cry:

[xaoslaad]

Yeah, slower is better so you don't bounce. Bouncing leads quickly to loss of control in this plane.

 

One difference I've noted over other taildraggers in other sims, is the need to be very very active with the rudder pedals throughout the entire landing roll. Other sims will let you get away with using a lot less rudder.

 

I don't know how realistic it is, but I have good luck tapping one toe brake or the other to prevent myself from drifting too much one way or the other and it has the nice side effect of slowing me down further too, without getting that nasty effect of tipping up that seems to happen all too easily if you hit the brakes too hard.

 

For my part I like to come in a little hot and just bleed off speed as I come over the runway. I just glide off speed and settle her down nice and easy on the runway at under 100 mph. Having the extra speed allows me to take my time setting her down gently so I have little or no bounce, as it really doesn't take long to slow down the P-51D.

[DieHard]

(re: Message #1)

 

The P-51D Flight Manual under Eagle Dynamics, in my Windows 7, All Programs, is a good read. I read it some, practice some, read it again or some more of it, practice, read, practice, read the forums, practice. It discusses the how-to of landing it.

 

I land usually, full flaps down on the runway's approach threshold at less than 120 mph, then flare, right prop lever and the left throttle go full back and I stall her a few feet above the runway, and the P-51D settles down nicely on the 3 wheels. It took me awhile to get this. And I still end up in a fireball once-in-awhile. I rarely fly the pattern to land, but come straight in.

 

What is fun, is landing in a stiff crosswind when I have to crab it right down to the runway, then straighten her as I land. Also, it is fun to land her with no flaps because of battle damage.

 

I coast it out aways before applying brakes and very gently, easy left pedal, off, easy right pedal, off, etc. as the previous guy's post also said. I use the CH Products Pro Pedals and each brake has its own pedal.

 

I have dead-stick landed her successfully, not on the runway, out in the sticks, with the wheels down.

 

I cannot dogfight worth beans, but I can fly her pretty good.

 

My 3 axis curves in the Options' Axis Tune are set at about 20.

 

I do not use any cheats/crutches and fly in full sim mode.

 

Aces High's P-51D was a bit tricky to learn to manually take-off and land, me being a total noob back then, but the DCS P-51D is trickier and it has no autopilot cheat---or if it does, I am not aware of it.

Edited October 16, 2013 by DieHard

[lesnyborsuk]

I don't know how realistic it is, but I have good luck tapping one toe brake or the other to prevent myself from drifting too much one way or the other and it has the nice side effect of slowing me down further too, without getting that nasty effect of tipping up that seems to happen all too easily if you hit the brakes too hard.

 

In real world you don't use brakes to steer when you have significant speed. You just push correct rudder pedal.

 

One difference I've noted over other taildraggers in other sims, is the need to be very very active with the rudder pedals throughout the entire landing roll. Other sims will let you get away with using a lot less rudder.

 

Even in C152 which has 15 times less horse power than P51 (and of course is not a taildragger), you need to counter propeller momentum just after touchdown. And then, when you slow down, momentum goes down, so you need less right rudder.

Edited October 16, 2013 by lesnyborsuk

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

I know a lot of real pilots* do this, but it's still a bad habit. It's just about the opposite of what you need to practice in order to become good at dead-stick landings, and if you're unpracticed in dead-sticking, you're gonna be screwed if you ever lose your engine. Coming in under power, and relying on that power staying on in order to make a safe landing (which is what you're doing when you're using the stick-is-speed-throttle-is-RoC method) gets pilots killed when they unexpectedly lose power.

 

When I was a kid, I knew a guy who took me for a ride in his T-6; a few years later, he died in a P-51 when he lost power on final and didn't have enough airspeed to make the open ground. Ever since then, I hate to see people (real pilots or not) recommend coming in under power and relying on it--which is what people do when they use the throttle to control descent rate. Instead, use both the stick & rudder to control both your speed & descent rate, and that'll teach you good energy management and give you good practice for power-off landings. Power should be used only enough to keep your engine from overcooling, and use a slip to keep yourself from relying on even this small amount of thrust--you want your engine at optimal temp in case you royally bungle your landing and need to go around (in which case you learn so that you can do better next time, with the end goal of never having to rely on power when landing), but you don't want to be counting on any thrust which you might lose.

 

*I believe the habit originated with airliners--when you have that many engines, it's easy to become complacent and rely on always having power. (The traffic patterns probably add to this problem.) And, perhaps, with airliners, it isn't particularly dangerous. But sometimes even airliners suffer complete loss of power, and when this happens, you'd better hope you have a pilot who's practiced at dead-stick landings. The two stories I know of where an airliner had a complete LoP and made it down safely (the "Gimli Glider" accident and the more recent Hudson River ditching), the pilots were glider pilots in addition to airliner pilots. Dead stick? Well, the glide ratio's gonna be different, but other than that, for a glider pilot ... standard! The moral of the story: don't rely on power when landing, especially if you fly single-engine airplanes. Always be ready for a complete LoP. You can't do much about it on takeoff, but you sure as hell can when landing. If you don't bother to practice dead-stick landings, someday you could die early because you didn't.

 

mhh, interesting, im still only at the beginning of my flying life...

but when i trained dead stick landings, i still used the stick to control speed mainly, and didnt really watch the descent rate...you just have to have the guts to push the stick and face the arising horizon, even when low.

and im not sure whether i understand your "underpowered"-point...you have your approach speed which you want to maintain...wheres the difference whether you do it with your stick or your throttle?when you lose your engine, you still have the approach speed with both ways of doing it...the difference i see is, that in case of engine loss, with the "control speed with stick" method, you dont have switch the method all of a sudden...

Edited October 16, 2013 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

[Echo38]

im not sure whether i understand your "underpowered"-point...you have your approach speed which you want to maintain...wheres the difference whether you do it with your stick or your throttle? when you lose your engine, you still have the approach speed with both ways of doing it...

 

When using throttle to control your altitude, you are going to be throttling up when you're too low. What happens if you go to throttle up, and the engine sputters and quits? You're too low--and now you don't have the power to gain enough altitude to make the airfield as you intended. I've known this to kill too many pilots IRL to not abhor this method. Whereas when you use stick & rudder to control your alt&speed, instead, you always keep an excess of speed until you're about to touchdown (at which point you increase your slip to bleed it off), so if you lose your engine, no problem.

 

the difference i see is, that in case of engine loss, with the "control speed with stick" method, you dont have switch the method all of a sudden...

 

Hey? That's backwards--if you're controlling your speed with stick and altitude with throttle, and you suddenly you lose the power, you most certainly have to switch methods all of a sudden, because you just lost half of what you were using to control your energy state. Whereas if you're using stick & rudder to control it, and you suddenly lose power, no problem--you keep on doing exactly what you were doing, and nothing has changed at all in the way you manage your approach. Since you were already at idle throttle*, there's no difference.

 

*As I mentioned earlier, it isn't a good idea to be exactly at idle throttle for a long time, because the engine can overcool, potentially causing engine failure if you suddenly go power-on for a go-around. For this reason, you want a small amount of power to keep your engine warm, but--to avoid relying on this power--you should counter this thrust with "additional" slip (in addition to the slip you're already using to bleed your energy--the altitude/speed you need to get rid of in order to land).

 

To clarify: in a truly dead-stick landing, the pilot's going to use a heavy slip in order to bleed his altitude--or, he'll dive to lose altitude, then use the slip to bleed off all the speed he got in the dive. Either way, he's going to use a slip to gradually reduce his energy (that is the sum of his speed and altitude), until he's about to flare just past the beginning of the runway. But if your engine is working, you should have the throttle just above idle to prevent overcooling, and you use extra slip beyond what the engine-off landing requires, to cancel out the thrust that this keep-it-warm power is giving you. The cancellation means that you won't find yourself suddenly short of power if your engine does fail, which would cause you to be unable to make it to the runway if you were relying on it (as is done when you're using the throttle to control your altitude).

 

To conclude, [stick = speed & throttle = descent rate] causes the pilot to rely on power, which tends to kill pilots when they have engine failure. [stick = descent rate & rudder = speed] ... well, this method isn't even so rigid as that; the stick & rudder are used together to control the entirety of the energy state. It's fluid. This method allows the pilot to be energy conscious and refrain from using the engine to increase energy during the landing process. While harder to learn, practicing it will greatly increase your survivability in the event of an actual power failure. (And the pilot never needs to look at the RoC indicator, by the way.)

Edited October 16, 2013 by Echo38

[Flamin_Squirrel]

In real world you don't use brakes to steer when you have significant speed. You just push correct rudder pedal.

 

There's nothing wrong with using some differential braking on landing. I find it helps avoid oscillations.

 

mhh, interesting, im still only at the beginning of my flying life...

but when i trained dead stick landings, i still used the stick to control speed mainly, and didnt really watch the descent rate...you just have to have the guts to push the stick and face the arising horizon, even when low.

 

These discussions make me laugh. "Stick to control speed, throttle for descent rate!" "No! Throttle for speed, stick for descent rate!"

 

Who cares. Do what works for you.

[DieHard]

Typically, when using your throttle to control your altitude, you are going to be throttling up when you're too low. What happens if you go to throttle up, and the engine sputters and quits? You're too low--and now you don't have the power to gain enough altitude to make the airfield as you intended. I've known this to kill too many pilots IRL to not abhor this method. Whereas when you use stick & rudder to control your alt&speed, instead, you always keep an excess of speed until you're about to touchdown (at which point you increase your slip to bleed it off), so if you lose your engine, no problem.

 

 

 

Hey? That's backwards--if you're controlling your speed with stick and altitude with throttle, and you suddenly you lose the power, you most certainly have to switch methods all of a sudden, because you just lost half of what you were using to control your energy state. Whereas if you're using stick & rudder to control it, and you suddenly lose power, no problem--you keep on doing exactly what you were doing, and nothing has changed at all in the way you manage your approach. Since you were already at idle throttle*, there's no difference.

 

*As I mentioned earlier, it isn't a good idea to be exactly at idle throttle for a long time, because the engine can overcool, potentially causing engine failure if you suddenly go power-on for a go-around. For this reason, you want a small amount of power to keep your engine warm, but--to avoid relying on this power--you should counter this thrust with "additional" slip (in addition to the slip you're already using to bleed your energy--the altitude/speed you need to get rid of in order to land).

 

To clarify: in a truly dead-stick landing, the pilot's going to use a heavy slip in order to bleed his altitude--or, he'll dive to lose altitude, then use the slip to bleed off all the speed he got in the dive. Either way, he's going to use a slip to gradually reduce his energy (that is the sum of his speed and altitude), until he's about to flare just past the beginning of the runway. But if your engine is working, you should have the throttle just above idle to prevent overcooling, and you use extra slip beyond what the engine-off landing requires, to cancel out the thrust that this keep-it-warm power is giving you. The cancellation means that you won't find yourself suddenly short of power if your engine does fail, which would cause you to be unable to make it to the runway if you were relying on it (as is done when you're using the throttle to control your altitude).

 

To conclude, [stick = speed & throttle = descent rate] causes the pilot to rely on power, which tends to kill pilots when they have engine failure. [stick = descent rate & rudder = speed] ... well, this method isn't even so rigid as that; the stick & rudder are used together to control the entirety of the energy state. It's fluid. This method allows the pilot to be energy conscious and refrain from using the engine to increase energy during the landing process. While harder to learn, practicing it will greatly increase your survivability in the event of an actual power failure. (And the pilot never needs to look at the RoC indicator, by the way.)

 

Not FSX, but one of the earlier Microsoft Flight Simulator editions, maybe 2002, had an excellent flight training program based out of an airfield west of Seattle, Washington, concerning a civilian training aircraft. And what you have said is exactly what the lessons were. I lined the aircraft up, trimmed her, and decreased throttle to land her, hardly touching the steering yoke, in calm weather.

 

When I fly the DCS: P-51D my left hand is always on my throttle.

 

When I practice dead-stick landings, I have no throttle...

[lesnyborsuk]

There's nothing wrong with using some differential braking on landing. I find it helps avoid oscillations.

 

Yes, you are right. In this sim it doesn't make big difference, because if you flip over your plane and finish in a fireball you can start again. In real life I wish I had button to do it :).

 

This was the answer for question "how realistic it is".

 

These discussions make me laugh. "Stick to control speed, throttle for descent rate!" "No! Throttle for speed, stick for descent rate!"

Who cares. Do what works for you.

 

FYI there are some people here who use this sim to improve their flying skills in real life. To practice dangerous situations to find out the solution, so in the real world they would live another day and fly again.

 

Cheers :pilotfly:

Edited October 17, 2013 by lesnyborsuk

[9.JG27 DavidRed]

FYI there are some people here who use this sim to improve their flying skills in real life. To practice dangerous situations to find out the solution, so in the real world they would live another they and fly again.

 

Cheers :pilotfly:

 

+1

thats what im actually doing very often within DCS...

[Flamin_Squirrel]

Yes, you are right. In this sim it doesn't make big difference, because if you flip over your plane and finish in a fireball you can start again. In real life I wish I had button to do it :).

 

This was the answer for question "how realistic it is".

 

I fly a Super Decathlon (a tail dragger) RW, so very :)

 

In gusty conditions particularly, using a bit of differential braking (brakes being responsive and no too sensitive) as opposed to the rudder (not as responsive but quite sensitive on the Decathlon) to make fine corrections works well in avoiding occilations.

 

FYI there are some people here who use this sim to improve their flying skills in real life.

 

I do that too. My response was a little tounge in cheek, but there is some truth behind it. Performance = Attitude + Power: that's all you really need to know. Don't get too hung up on trying to separate pitch and speed with power and altitude, because they're all related.